The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 6 months ago

187: Category Creation & What Sets You Apart From Competitors

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode of the Sales Hacker Podcast, we have Veronika Riederle, Co-Founder & CEO at Demodesk, a customer meeting platform company she launched in 2018 that’s bringing in seven figures with a global hybrid remote team. Join us for a stunning conversation about why now is the perfect time to found a company and create a new category.

What You’ll Learn

  1. What’s surprising about starting a company today
  2. The virtual meeting space has barely begun to evolve
  3. Articulating your product in a way that creates a category
  4. How to differentiate in a crowded environment

Show Agenda and Timestamps

  1. About Veronika Riederle & Demodesk [2:20]
  2. What’s surprising about founding a company today [8:25]
  3. Why we should disrupt human communication [13:08]
  4. Differentiating your company in a competitive environment [15:30]
  5. Making gender in leadership a less controversial topic [22:45]
  6. Paying it forward [24:50]
  7. Sam’s Corner [27:30]

One, two, one, three, three, everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the SALESACER podcast. Today in the show we've got Veronica readily. She is the CEO and Co founder of Demo Desk. It's a really interesting sales meeting platform company. That's the category that they're working in and it's almost like a verticalization of zoom. It's taking zoom but making it custom built and dedicated for the salesperson and then running at the entire time over a browser so that nobody needs to download everything. So it's anything. It sounds like they're doing really, really cool stuff and she started this company, you know, a couple years ago. From that she's built it from the ground up. Now they're over a million a rr over fifty people all over the world. It's just cool, it's inspiring and and so it's a great conversation. Before we get there, let's thank our sponsors. We've got three, of course. First is outreach, a longtime sponsor the show. We're excited to announce that their annual series, UNLEA summit series, is back. This year's theme the rise of revenue. Innovators. Join the new cohort of leaders who put buyers at the center of their sale strategies to drive a fishing, predictable growth across the entire revenue cycle. Get more details and save your spot at sumit. That outreached ioh. Secondly, we want to thank and our sponsor is pavilion. My phone is ringing. Somebody's at the door. We're going to probably just leave this in the delivering something. It's probably something for dogs. We have three dogs, two of which are elderly. They even have their own dog nanny, Sydney Letterman. She does a great job. And the point is that somebody's probably at the or delivering something for the dogs, because nobody delivers anything for humans at our house. Anyway. I digress. OUR SECOND SPONSORS PAVILION. Pavilion is the key to getting more out of your career or private membership gives you access to thousands of like minded peers, dozens of courses in schools from Pavilion University and over a thousand workbooks, template scripts and playbooks to accelerate your development. Unlock the career of your dreams and join thousands of the very, very best. All of the best have pavilion on their linkedin. Do you unlock the career of your dreams. Apply today at Joint PAVILIONCOM finely, Conga. As doing business becomes increasingly complex, it gets...

...harder to do it well. Business is often sacrifice agility and loose sight of the customer experience. CONGA's expertise and comprehensive solution suite for commercial operations transforming the documents and processes surrounding customer engagement. CPQ AND CLM help businesses meet customer needs while increasing agility to adapt to change. CONGA DOTCOM forward sales accer, congacom forward sales hecker. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the sales hacker podcast. Today on the show we're excited to have Veronica readerly. She is the cofounder and CEO of Demo Desk, the number one sales meeting platform. Demo desk empowers every rep to become a top performer by coaching sellers in real time, automating non selling tasks, engaging customers in the meeting and analyzing insights at scale. Before Founding Demo Desk in two thousand and eighteen, Veronica was a manager at banning company consulted fortune five hundred companies on their sales and investment strategies and managed multiple international teams. FORNICA, welcome to the show. Thank you so much, seef. Excited to be here. We're excited to of view. So the first thing we like to do is start with your baseball card. But really what it is is an opportunity to learn more about your company. Demo Desk. So I read a little bit of the description, but tell us what is Demo Desk? Well, yeah, you you just describe what Demo Desk is pretty well. So Demo desk is the number one says meeting platform. We do coach sell us in real time. So we are and meeting platform that integrates life coaching and on top of that, we automate non selling tasks like scheduling, preparation, documentation and also fall up after the meeting. And we also analyze insight at scale, because we have much more data than just from the audio conversation, because we also able to analyze what's being shared at which funny time and also what playbooks have been used during the car. When you say live coaching in real time, is that through bots? Is that you know, is that sort of ai or is that actual human being that sort of times in or whisp in whisper mode sort of gives the rep some some tips or some insights. It's not these.

And just imagine you know the perfect way how to sell it's a pavilion, a pavilion membership right, and you know what to say to the customer. You know which content to share, you know how to answer certain questions, so you're able to sell the membership properly. So you now take a playbook, you writes it into your playbook and then when your team is in the meeting, they automatically have your playbook loaded into the meeting screen, just visible to them without the customer seeing it. So they do have to perfect playbook them that guides them along the meeting that they can use to make sure they use the time properly. Plus you also have a search feed where you can search for certain keywords if there's his injections or question to answer. And we are not a tool that prompts a lot of different things. Why you're having a conversation with the customer to not to strict you. We are to just guide you along the conversation. How old is the company? I mean I mentioned I guess I mentioned in the Bio that you found it in two thousand and eighteen. So we know that it's about four years old at this point. But how big is it? I guess you know how many people. Where are you roughly in your growth through directory? So we do have seven digit man are the moment we are at more than fifty people. We are a hybrid remote team and so we have a lot of folks located in Europe and Germany, but also a few others spread acost world. So we other have em plays in the US, Eastern Europe and other countries, for example in Africa as well. So we do have every international set up. And tell us a little bit about sort of the origin story of how you you were working at Bin. How did this idea come to fruition and what were the steps you took in order to get, you know, to found Demo Desk? And then, finally, wasn't more challenging or less challenging, because it sounds like you're are you based in Berlin or your were? You're based in Germany. So was that? Did that make? Was that an easier startup environment or more difficult one from your perspective? Sure, yeah, let me first as to the first question and how I started the modusk. So...

...before starting the company, I've actually been working and management consulting and Bain. So it's a top to yours based managing consulting firm. I work there are some private equity for five years, and I mean I've always been someone who likes to build things and have also been working in a few startups during my studies. So to me it was always key that I wanted to build a company and the entrepreneur. But when I left university him at the age of twenty two twenty three, I felt I was just lacking a lot of skills that were necessary to build a company. So I thought it was a good idea to to gain some knowledge and some skills. Are joining then and a few years in I started building a few things on the side, like in nuttrition, apt construction software or video platform for mothers, but none of these ideas really excited me enough to quit my job at Bain and do that for a time. But when I met Alex, he told me about his idea of virtual screen sharing and also told me how inefficient and outdated today available. Today's available software for remote product Gams was so what he actually did. He had developed an MVP for virtual screen showing software. They let's step presenter use a workship cloud based screen for demoing a webpap rather than forcing the presenter who record your local destop screen, which a super old school and I was football the idea of using that virtual display for optimizing the customer conversation, and that's when we started working together and that's also when we started at it building them all ask and the second question was remind me again. Well, it was was a second one. The follow on was you know. So you you left Bain. I Guess Alex is your cofounder. Were you in Berlin at the time? Were you in German? Where were you? I am at the moment in Munich in Germany. It's one of the biggest cities in Germany. However, we've also spent a lot of time in San Francisco and mountainview. So we were part of y see in the first half of two thousand...

...and nineteen and spent most of the time in mountain view and Donka. For the rest of the time before the pandemic started, we were traveling forth and back between Germany and the West Coast. But I mean went stum pandemic started. We went at really in us a lot, but I hope that this will change soon again. And how was surprising to you or what was more difficult than you expected? Obviously, being in yc means that you know you had some some great access to resources, but what's been more difficult for you or more surprising to you about how the work that's required to start a company at such an early stage? Well before I started the company, I spoke to a few founders how their general was, how it was for them, and they always told me that it's like a never ending roller coaster. Right, and I thought, back done, that's they already have very big companies them. So back done. When I spoke with them, the companies were already like several hundreds of people and I couldn't quite understand and how they could actually say that this never changes because they have accomplished so much. Right. And I think the most challenging the thing, or the most difficult thing for me to understand is that they are always challenges and especially as a founder, when you have overcome when challenged and you immediately tackle the next one. So it's basically like a never ending Weir and also accepting that this is normal. It like it's normal that they're always challenges that you tould be solved. I think that was definitely one of the hardest things for me to understand the beginning and now I'm able to cope with that better. But but that is something that's very unique to to being a founder and just starting a company. How have you thought about your go to market motion? You know, how have you built out your sales and Marketing Organization? You mentioned you have some folks in the US. How are you thinking about kind of client expansion? Are you starting local and then moving to you know, maybe starting local means starting in the bay area, or you know how the thought about go to market? Well, initially we sold to our network, so we sold to befriended founders in our ecosystem and also to be friend of founders in in Y see.

And once we've, I mean I proceeded to to to the next stage of the company and we built a say steam. So initially we were selling opportunistically. So we're basically that just taking any need that came our way. Were basically not really giving them territories or giving them criteria that they need to filter the prospects. And and now, once we've filed a proper sized team, that of course changed. So now we build a structure of an str team and an a team that's focused on the specific territories and specific regions. So we have one STIAE team that focuses on that HONIDAC regions or German Ostar Switzerland wanted, focuses on the UK, and one that focuses on the US. Mean it's still at a small scale, but we do a very much focus on Mendi Street regions and we also mostly target fast growing tech companies and sus companies. So for us, companies that have raised more than five million dollars in some the most interesting ones, because they are really forced to make the sell as productive higher people, make them practive as fast as possible and also control their growth and acceleraate their growth with that seltspot. You've mentioned that you feel like it's never been a better time to found a company welcomes through that. You know a lot of people have grown through COVID and a lot of people have struggled, but what's been your approach in perspective and how you turned it into an advantage but for us to cover, it was very special situation, even though I mean this entire I mean environment around covered was a was challenging for that of companies and for us it was almost helping us in some way because after covered, and also during corvid, people were forced to sell remotely, they were forced to accept video calls, video conferencing, remote setting as to standard way of selling, and also everyone learned that it's not always necessary to see the customer and person it like. Sometimes it or very often it's just enough with sufficient if we do an online call it. And before that, I mean inside says, was on your rise, but it...

...was not yet to standard way of selling. And after covered, of course helps us a lot because we have a says meeting platform that helps set us say remotely, and so that helps us a lot. I also do think that there is a lot of money out there and a market at the moment. So there's just an amazing time for founders. If they have good ideas and if they are able and willing to build software that augments human skills and also automated repetitive money your work, they will be able to, I would not say easily get money, but that's it's definitely like way it's becoming way easier than it was like a couple of years ago, and also, especially in Europe right I think there's also a strong start up ecosystem emerging. I think when we started a build a company, for us, going into YC and I mean being part of the network on the West Coast was extremely important. I mean, we are also building a set software. So I think it's like kind of a different story. But now I think it's also because of covered it's like even more normal to like build a company wherever you are and you're not necessarily forced to, I mean, move to San Francisco to do that, which is also something that has changed a lot. You've mentioned that now is the perfect time to disrupt human communication. Tell it. Tell us why you think that. I always like to use the example of the self driving car. So if you if you look at the cars today, we like, in theory, almost have the possibility to drive a car without human interaction. So you can take could totally autonomously drive a car. Why? Because in real time, all the data around the car is being analyzed, processed and then hand in a way so that the car can drive on its own right, but if you compare it with the conversation or compared it with the video call in a more narrow sense, there's like no technology being used at all. So you are speaking over in zoom or Google meet or teams to someone else and there is just technically interface, so the computer or the server between you and the customer, and still the only thing that it...

...will helps you on ables you doing is hearing someone, seeing someone and recording a local desktop, but it doesn't really help you being better at the actual conversation. It doesn't provide you with guidance during the call, it doesn't provide you with insights how the customers actually reacting. It doesn't provide you with data that maybe would help you to build stronger report, but the customer, which is all possible today, right, but none of these is currently being the case and being used in the onliniting case, in the case of human communication. So that's why I think there's like a tremendous potential to analyst data in real time, similar to how you do it for self driving cars, process the data and use it in order to help anyone have an amazing customer conversation just by giving you the data and giving you everything that you need a real time. Yeah, it's it's certainly an exciting moment and and so much is going to change. I mean so much is already changing. The sales meeting, you know, the space that you're in, the demo desk is in. I mean I in some ways there are many, many companies. In some ways what you're doing is subtly different from from those companies. But you know, you could say that maybe you compete without reach, you might compete with companies like a Jiminy. The point isn't that you have competition. The point is that you started a company and sort of a category where there's a lot of noise and a lot of movement. How do you think about differentiating your company, differentiating your platform, creating some kind of long term, sustainable advantage in such a competitive environment? How do you think about doing that from from your perspective as the cofounder and CEO? It's a great question. I think we've already discussed it some time. I go rite. So I think first of all, I we don't have so much direct confission competition. So they are we are like the only real says meeting platform. You also mentioned Gemini. So they are more focused than analyzing conversations after the call rather than giving the sellout platform where they're coaching real time. So it's a kind of a little bit of a different product and I'll just the same. It's also different product because it doesn't give you a meeting platform that automatically loads the right...

...playbooks into it gives you access to content and connects you with all the other systems that you already have implement it in a sense organization. But it is an amazing tool write to analyze audio conversations in weird time and give you like some basic hands and I think it's amazing protans, an amazing product. But it's just like a very different focus in value proposition, because we are at our core and meeting platform. So we are basically a zoom or it will we meet, but specifically bait for sales. So because we control this entire meeting part, we also have different ways and different possibilities of using this meeting interface in a perfect way and in an optimal way to enable to sell us. So we can, for example, define what's being shown at which one in time. We can like freely decide whether we want to brand the entire meeting interface. We can really decide which data we want to analyze during the meeting and which data makes sense for the setter to provide him within real time. So that's the core difference. And then also we have another unique advantage that is very unique to our platform, because we have this virtue screenshing the technology right, so when you use them on ask you can orchestrate the entire meeting. You detached the meeting from the local environment of the seller and basically put it into this virtual environment that we can control and that use a company and theory also can control. It's just take a very different like level of basically guidance and level of data, and that is that we can provide when we compared with other platforms that are currently out on the market. First of all, very thorough answer and and yeah, I mean I think the in a great answer. And for me, what a sort of conjurs is to your point, maybe like the verticalization of Zoom, such that you know there are personas that need more than this kind of generic tool, which is what zoom is. Do you find that you know you have to focus on sort of creating a category so that people can understand more quickly what you do, or does it just make perfect sense to everybody? Because I know that telling...

...the story as a founder is so important, given that you know you're out there raising money and talking to investors and talking to the community at large and you need to figure out a way to drive your message home so that there's as clear, as much clarity as possible. Have you found that sort of your working on building a definition of the category so that it's it's more easily understood that some of the companies that I mentioned are not really competitors because they're not really doing the same thing? Absolutely, a hundred percent. That has been one of the biggest challenges for us so far, right because we are taking a problem that's very big and that's been around for a very long time and that a lot of companies, like most of the companies, have. However, we first need to explain them. Hey, there's like a new type of product and new type of solution to a very old and known problem that you have. And so the first of course you don't understand. Hey, what is demo is about? What does it actually do and what does it do to solve my specific problem? So it's not like people would go to Google and search for certaining platform right. So like your repress doesn't go to Google and search for certainthing platforms. He would search for faster on boarding of sellers. He would make Google for or she would she it's a woman, right. I know the catler. She wouldn't. She wouldn't maybe Google for, for Mean Coaching Tools, saystem coaching tools, or I mean bally cards or playbooks, but she would like never search for, says, meeting platforms. And that's really something that we first need to make sure that our market understands, and that is definitely like a lot of work, and that also, I mean it was definitely challenging for us in the beginning and gets easier now because we now have more visibility and also now have a very strong team in place, is ample to sell the product properly. But we also have been going forth and back with the name of a Category for category for quite some time. So, for example, them until they can be do. Six months ago we thought the name of all category would be real time stays, an implement which is like such a complex word, like no one really understands what actually is that, and I think just says an ablement.

Also, like just the word says an emblement. It's also such an thick, unspecific world. So even that like this, very unclear to like the average seller would doesn't actually mean. So we went away from that and said today now we have found the name for a category, which is says meeting platform, says meeting software. But that has been a real challenge for show us and, to your point, right. And then all of these words conjure. Everybody sort of trying to differentiate themselves in these words conjure different things. And to your point, enablement doesn't conjure screen sharing or meetings. For me it makes me think of like, you know, lesson L or seizemaker like tools that you know you can google. Like what's you know? What's our what's our go to market playbook for you know, healthcare, and you know that'll come up as a little car that POPs up in your screen. But not about running a meeting effectively, which is, to the point, what demodest us so well. So absolutely yes. And we also don't want to build another high spot or another says make we want to integrate with these platforms. Right, and so we speaking a too high school at the moment as well, to like put an integration. So we just want to pull the content independently from what it actually sits. So whether it's in Google drive or in high spot or in says make me would just want to or guru. We also have a google integration. We just want to put it into the meeting at your right point in time and provide it to the set up, and that's what our focus actually is, and also be don't want to be confused with tools like Gong or chorus. So we actually do deeply integrate with Gong and we also use go on ourselves and think if we think it's like a killer combination because we can, with the help of Com analyze our cause and understand what has been going on and then when we know what's working, we can then implemented again into our playbooks in Demot is. To make sure it's repeated by everyone on team. It makes perfect sense and I can, I can totally appreciate the challenge you have and also the opportunity. Technical question. You Know Zoom, you you still have to download, you know, the the the desktop application or the mobile APP in order to use it. Is this completely browser based, or is there you know, is there...

...something that you need to download onto your desktop in order to run demo? DESCA Feshi effectively completely brother base, both both for the host and for the participants. So you don't need any software to install on your computer and you also don't need any extension. Yeah, that makes it way more the growth possibilities are broader, obviously, as you know, since you're the CEO if and a lot of people. That's what I think. Yes, I'm I think it's too I agree with you, because I think if somebody sends me something to download, you know, the like that that I will is much lower. If absolutely. We have a few more minutes together and one thing that you have a sort of unique or controversial perspective on is is sort of the your perspective on on female leaders, female CEOS, female revenue leaders, on really women and leadership. Tell us what's your perspective and give us your point of view there. Yeah, I think it's almost controversial that I even mention it right topic, however, I mean just one I when I thought about that question, I think this is typically the the one topic where I do have a very controversial perspective on it. So I I mean I am very often confronted with my genda and I personally think it shouldn't matter. So I don't want to be recognized for anything because I have a certain gender, I. which is whatever, because they're but I want to be recognized or I want my company to be nice because the product is great, because it helps customers a chief better results. And I mean, I don't get me wrong, I also think we need to actively foster a woman in leadership. So they definitely needs to be more. But I think the only way out is really like taking action and like creating role models and just doing things rather than like speaking about it or enforcing a certain share. And I think just very often people like speak about something and think about things that could possibly hold them back rather than just doing it. So I'd really love to like to see more women actually doing it and also, I mean I would also love...

...to like gender becoming a less of an issue going forward and less of a controversial topic or less of a topic in general going forward. I appreciate where you're coming from. It's also controversial and it's also like a it's hard to figure out if, if focusing on identity and focusing on gender issues or any other sort of DNA identifying attribute and making it super prominent is the way to make it less prominent in the future, or whether it's exacerbating the tension in the situation. To your point and sort of feels like maybe a little of both is required, because if you never call it out, then it's not clear what's going to how intentional the change can be, and if you always call it out, then it feels like maybe you're focusing on that to the detriment of more of non identity based outcomes. I guess, yes, it is controversial for for fair enough ronic it's been great having on the show. The last thing we like to do is kind of pay it forward, is figure out who are people you think we should know about? Who are people that have influenced you? What books have you read that you think we should read? It it can be any way that you want to. Can Be your favorite movie. It's ideas and human beings that you think are important and influential that you think we should know about. WHO COMES TO MIND? Well, I can just think of the people that helped me a lot on my journey and that influenced me. So we do have an investor who is also the fonder of pipe drife. Is Name is March and Hank and he has supported us since the very early days and also has helped this a lot. mean, his insights are too manestly helpful. We have a regular coaching sessions with him and I always think that I actually should pay him money rather than like taking his money, because it's a healthy so helpful. So I think he's definitely someone that that I would I would name here and and then and and we like work with a lot of different advisors and the help us on the way. So you mean another one, for example, would be need Ryland, to see row of peak on. He's also in creably helpful and coaching US and guiding us. And and also, I mean Tera Bryant, is also helped me a lot. She was, he says, at pipe drive for quite some time. She has recently changed to a new role.

I don't remember the name of the company now. And I mean that just a few people who help us along the way. And I would also encourage everyone who, mean is building a company or mean everyone who just wants to be bet at the job. Reach out to two people that they admire a people that they are. They do something very well, and just asked them whether they want to be a mentor a coach or advisor to them, and we do that a lot. Amazing. Yeah, and agree with that advice completely. That's I run a business completely dedicated to that. So I agree with you. Yes, no to us. Also, remn a colluctive for pavilion is also very helpful. So my my revenue leadership team, is also a member and they also think it's incredibly valuable to exchange thoughts with like many people and also get advice and get coaching from people who are for the longest they are. So that's a that's a great community that we like, love and support. I will thank you very much well, Arnica. It's been fantastic to have you in the show and we're going to bring you back on Friday for for Friday fundamentals. But I folks want to reach out to you. Maybe they want to work for you, maybe they want to buy demo desk, maybe they need a new sales meeting platform in their lives. What's the best way to get in touch with you? Probably by email. So my Emailissa Baronica, with a K at demodeskcom or, of course you can also will reach out by the intercom shed on our website and people will respond. Sounds wonderful. FRONICA, thanks so much for being on the show. We'll talk to you on Friday for Friday fundamentals. Thank you so much. It was great everybody. Great Conversation with Fenica. Readily she's calling to us out of Munich, over covid you know, bouncing back and forth between the bay area Munich. They've got employees all over the world. It's just an inspiring story. It's always it's always inspiring. You know, it's hard to start a company, it's hard to be a sales leader. Frankly, it's sometimes it's just hard being a human being in this crazy, crazy world that we're in. But starting a company still has its own special set of challenges and taking the lead from a cushy job, not that it's easy, but...

...you know, a good, great job like being a consultant bane into the startup world takes courage and it's exciting to see she's been working on this for four years. I'm sure we don't even appreciate how hard it's been, and now they're over a million and R are there over fifteen plays and they're doing something that sounds really interesting, and so I thought it was a really good conversation and I also think, you know, she said some some pretty interesting things just about how, you know, we're in the early days of the virtual meeting space right in the same way that we are in the very early days of autonomous driving. But in the future will be a little surprised looking back on where we were from a technical perspective, technological perspective at you know, how rudimentary we were and thinking about all of the things that are possible in a meeting that aren't currently present. And I think, not that she said this, but you know, you could even imagine, you know, virtual reality, augmented reality and how these worlds and platforms combined to create a new kind of experience. And we also talked about the difficulty of creating a category when people don't really know what you do or don't understand what you do. You know, when I heard the word Demo Desk, I thought, Oh, maybe they compete with her priest, you know this company that does kind of demo simulations, but that's not what they do that it's a sales meeting platform, right. So they run meetings in the same way that you would log into zoom. You run the meeting through demo desk, and so then you're like, okay, it's a compete with outrage, does it? You know, is that a sales engagement things? That a sales enablement thing? And it's turns out that, no, it's none of those things. It's really a replacement for zoom dedicated to sales people, which is that's a use case that people understand. But but you have to articulate in a way that resonates, because otherwise, you know, it can be a muddle and people's reaction to a brand is often instinctual. It's often you don't have, you know, two minutes to explain to somebody that just sees the name of your company on a website. You have you have to make it instinctual that they understand what you do and who you are and what you are and that's what that is the cost and the challenge of building a brand. So really it's hard work that she's doing and then they're making great progress and it's really exciting to see. So congratulations to Veronica and yeah, if you want to...

...reach me. You can email me, Sama Joint PAVILIONCOM. You can go to Linkedin, linkedincom for the world, if in MF Jacobs. Thanks to our sponsors outreach, check out the new summit series, which is the rise of revenue innovators. Go to summit that outreached ioh. If you haven't joined pavilion yet, what are you waiting for? This is the new way that you are going to navigate and manage your career over the next ten, fifteen, twenty years. We're going to give you the skills that you need, the training that you need. We're going to give you mentoring so that it's not just taking a class, but it's steady, continuous, reinforced learning. Take the class, talk to the instructor make that instructor a mentor meet with Kyle Lacy, the chief marketing officer of Leslie, once a month as a member of our associate or executive community, so that you can take the lessons that you get from marketing school or Chief Marketing Officers School and drive them into your performance so that it's not a onetime, one off kind of thing. So there's a lot of different possibilities and options that you can get with pavilion. Go to join Pavilioncom and then, finally, Conga. They are really doing some fast things and what they're doing is helping businesses become more agile and more adapt and you can check out more congacom for salesacker. Thank you so much for listening and I'll talk to you next time.

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