The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 2 months ago

187: Category Creation & What Sets You Apart From Competitors

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode of the Sales Hacker Podcast, we have Veronika Riederle, Co-Founder & CEO at Demodesk, a customer meeting platform company she launched in 2018 that’s bringing in seven figures with a global hybrid remote team. Join us for a stunning conversation about why now is the perfect time to found a company and create a new category.

What You’ll Learn

  1. What’s surprising about starting a company today
  2. The virtual meeting space has barely begun to evolve
  3. Articulating your product in a way that creates a category
  4. How to differentiate in a crowded environment

Show Agenda and Timestamps

  1. About Veronika Riederle & Demodesk [2:20]
  2. What’s surprising about founding a company today [8:25]
  3. Why we should disrupt human communication [13:08]
  4. Differentiating your company in a competitive environment [15:30]
  5. Making gender in leadership a less controversial topic [22:45]
  6. Paying it forward [24:50]
  7. Sam’s Corner [27:30]

One, two, one, three, three, everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the SALESACER podcast. Todayin the show we've got Veronica readily. She is the CEO and Co founderof Demo Desk. It's a really interesting sales meeting platform company. That'sthe category that they're working in and it's almost like a verticalization of zoom.It's taking zoom but making it custom built and dedicated for the salesperson and thenrunning at the entire time over a browser so that nobody needs to download everything. So it's anything. It sounds like they're doing really, really cool stuffand she started this company, you know, a couple years ago. From thatshe's built it from the ground up. Now they're over a million a rrover fifty people all over the world. It's just cool, it's inspiring andand so it's a great conversation. Before we get there, let's thankour sponsors. We've got three, of course. First is outreach, alongtime sponsor the show. We're excited to announce that their annual series, UNLEAsummit series, is back. This year's theme the rise of revenue. Innovators. Join the new cohort of leaders who put buyers at the center of theirsale strategies to drive a fishing, predictable growth across the entire revenue cycle.Get more details and save your spot at sumit. That outreached ioh. Secondly, we want to thank and our sponsor is pavilion. My phone is ringing. Somebody's at the door. We're going to probably just leave this in thedelivering something. It's probably something for dogs. We have three dogs, two ofwhich are elderly. They even have their own dog nanny, Sydney Letterman. She does a great job. And the point is that somebody's probably atthe or delivering something for the dogs, because nobody delivers anything for humans atour house. Anyway. I digress. OUR SECOND SPONSORS PAVILION. Pavilion isthe key to getting more out of your career or private membership gives you accessto thousands of like minded peers, dozens of courses in schools from Pavilion Universityand over a thousand workbooks, template scripts and playbooks to accelerate your development.Unlock the career of your dreams and join thousands of the very, very best. All of the best have pavilion on their linkedin. Do you unlock thecareer of your dreams. Apply today at Joint PAVILIONCOM finely, Conga. Asdoing business becomes increasingly complex, it gets...

...harder to do it well. Businessis often sacrifice agility and loose sight of the customer experience. CONGA's expertise andcomprehensive solution suite for commercial operations transforming the documents and processes surrounding customer engagement.CPQ AND CLM help businesses meet customer needs while increasing agility to adapt to change. CONGA DOTCOM forward sales accer, congacom forward sales hecker. Hey everybody,it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the sales hacker podcast. Today on the showwe're excited to have Veronica readerly. She is the cofounder and CEO of DemoDesk, the number one sales meeting platform. Demo desk empowers every rep to becomea top performer by coaching sellers in real time, automating non selling tasks, engaging customers in the meeting and analyzing insights at scale. Before Founding DemoDesk in two thousand and eighteen, Veronica was a manager at banning company consultedfortune five hundred companies on their sales and investment strategies and managed multiple international teams. FORNICA, welcome to the show. Thank you so much, seef.Excited to be here. We're excited to of view. So the first thingwe like to do is start with your baseball card. But really what itis is an opportunity to learn more about your company. Demo Desk. SoI read a little bit of the description, but tell us what is Demo Desk? Well, yeah, you you just describe what Demo Desk is prettywell. So Demo desk is the number one says meeting platform. We docoach sell us in real time. So we are and meeting platform that integrateslife coaching and on top of that, we automate non selling tasks like scheduling, preparation, documentation and also fall up after the meeting. And we alsoanalyze insight at scale, because we have much more data than just from theaudio conversation, because we also able to analyze what's being shared at which funnytime and also what playbooks have been used during the car. When you saylive coaching in real time, is that through bots? Is that you know, is that sort of ai or is that actual human being that sort oftimes in or whisp in whisper mode sort of gives the rep some some tipsor some insights. It's not these.

And just imagine you know the perfectway how to sell it's a pavilion, a pavilion membership right, and youknow what to say to the customer. You know which content to share,you know how to answer certain questions, so you're able to sell the membershipproperly. So you now take a playbook, you writes it into your playbook andthen when your team is in the meeting, they automatically have your playbookloaded into the meeting screen, just visible to them without the customer seeing it. So they do have to perfect playbook them that guides them along the meetingthat they can use to make sure they use the time properly. Plus youalso have a search feed where you can search for certain keywords if there's hisinjections or question to answer. And we are not a tool that prompts alot of different things. Why you're having a conversation with the customer to notto strict you. We are to just guide you along the conversation. Howold is the company? I mean I mentioned I guess I mentioned in theBio that you found it in two thousand and eighteen. So we know thatit's about four years old at this point. But how big is it? Iguess you know how many people. Where are you roughly in your growththrough directory? So we do have seven digit man are the moment we areat more than fifty people. We are a hybrid remote team and so wehave a lot of folks located in Europe and Germany, but also a fewothers spread acost world. So we other have em plays in the US,Eastern Europe and other countries, for example in Africa as well. So wedo have every international set up. And tell us a little bit about sortof the origin story of how you you were working at Bin. How didthis idea come to fruition and what were the steps you took in order toget, you know, to found Demo Desk? And then, finally,wasn't more challenging or less challenging, because it sounds like you're are you basedin Berlin or your were? You're based in Germany. So was that?Did that make? Was that an easier startup environment or more difficult one fromyour perspective? Sure, yeah, let me first as to the first questionand how I started the modusk. So...

...before starting the company, I've actuallybeen working and management consulting and Bain. So it's a top to yours basedmanaging consulting firm. I work there are some private equity for five years,and I mean I've always been someone who likes to build things and have alsobeen working in a few startups during my studies. So to me it wasalways key that I wanted to build a company and the entrepreneur. But whenI left university him at the age of twenty two twenty three, I feltI was just lacking a lot of skills that were necessary to build a company. So I thought it was a good idea to to gain some knowledge andsome skills. Are joining then and a few years in I started building afew things on the side, like in nuttrition, apt construction software or videoplatform for mothers, but none of these ideas really excited me enough to quitmy job at Bain and do that for a time. But when I metAlex, he told me about his idea of virtual screen sharing and also toldme how inefficient and outdated today available. Today's available software for remote product Gamswas so what he actually did. He had developed an MVP for virtual screenshowing software. They let's step presenter use a workship cloud based screen for demoinga webpap rather than forcing the presenter who record your local destop screen, whicha super old school and I was football the idea of using that virtual displayfor optimizing the customer conversation, and that's when we started working together and that'salso when we started at it building them all ask and the second question wasremind me again. Well, it was was a second one. The followon was you know. So you you left Bain. I Guess Alex isyour cofounder. Were you in Berlin at the time? Were you in German? Where were you? I am at the moment in Munich in Germany.It's one of the biggest cities in Germany. However, we've also spent a lotof time in San Francisco and mountainview. So we were part of y seein the first half of two thousand...

...and nineteen and spent most of thetime in mountain view and Donka. For the rest of the time before thepandemic started, we were traveling forth and back between Germany and the West Coast. But I mean went stum pandemic started. We went at really in us alot, but I hope that this will change soon again. And howwas surprising to you or what was more difficult than you expected? Obviously,being in yc means that you know you had some some great access to resources, but what's been more difficult for you or more surprising to you about howthe work that's required to start a company at such an early stage? Wellbefore I started the company, I spoke to a few founders how their generalwas, how it was for them, and they always told me that it'slike a never ending roller coaster. Right, and I thought, back done,that's they already have very big companies them. So back done. WhenI spoke with them, the companies were already like several hundreds of people andI couldn't quite understand and how they could actually say that this never changes becausethey have accomplished so much. Right. And I think the most challenging thething, or the most difficult thing for me to understand is that they arealways challenges and especially as a founder, when you have overcome when challenged andyou immediately tackle the next one. So it's basically like a never ending Weirand also accepting that this is normal. It like it's normal that they're alwayschallenges that you tould be solved. I think that was definitely one of thehardest things for me to understand the beginning and now I'm able to cope withthat better. But but that is something that's very unique to to being afounder and just starting a company. How have you thought about your go tomarket motion? You know, how have you built out your sales and MarketingOrganization? You mentioned you have some folks in the US. How are youthinking about kind of client expansion? Are you starting local and then moving toyou know, maybe starting local means starting in the bay area, or youknow how the thought about go to market? Well, initially we sold to ournetwork, so we sold to befriended founders in our ecosystem and also tobe friend of founders in in Y see.

And once we've, I mean Iproceeded to to to the next stage of the company and we built asay steam. So initially we were selling opportunistically. So we're basically that justtaking any need that came our way. Were basically not really giving them territoriesor giving them criteria that they need to filter the prospects. And and now, once we've filed a proper sized team, that of course changed. So nowwe build a structure of an str team and an a team that's focusedon the specific territories and specific regions. So we have one STIAE team thatfocuses on that HONIDAC regions or German Ostar Switzerland wanted, focuses on the UK, and one that focuses on the US. Mean it's still at a small scale, but we do a very much focus on Mendi Street regions and wealso mostly target fast growing tech companies and sus companies. So for us,companies that have raised more than five million dollars in some the most interesting ones, because they are really forced to make the sell as productive higher people,make them practive as fast as possible and also control their growth and acceleraate theirgrowth with that seltspot. You've mentioned that you feel like it's never been abetter time to found a company welcomes through that. You know a lot ofpeople have grown through COVID and a lot of people have struggled, but what'sbeen your approach in perspective and how you turned it into an advantage but forus to cover, it was very special situation, even though I mean thisentire I mean environment around covered was a was challenging for that of companies andfor us it was almost helping us in some way because after covered, andalso during corvid, people were forced to sell remotely, they were forced toaccept video calls, video conferencing, remote setting as to standard way of selling, and also everyone learned that it's not always necessary to see the customer andperson it like. Sometimes it or very often it's just enough with sufficient ifwe do an online call it. And before that, I mean inside says, was on your rise, but it...

...was not yet to standard way ofselling. And after covered, of course helps us a lot because we havea says meeting platform that helps set us say remotely, and so that helpsus a lot. I also do think that there is a lot of moneyout there and a market at the moment. So there's just an amazing time forfounders. If they have good ideas and if they are able and willingto build software that augments human skills and also automated repetitive money your work,they will be able to, I would not say easily get money, butthat's it's definitely like way it's becoming way easier than it was like a coupleof years ago, and also, especially in Europe right I think there's alsoa strong start up ecosystem emerging. I think when we started a build acompany, for us, going into YC and I mean being part of thenetwork on the West Coast was extremely important. I mean, we are also buildinga set software. So I think it's like kind of a different story. But now I think it's also because of covered it's like even more normalto like build a company wherever you are and you're not necessarily forced to,I mean, move to San Francisco to do that, which is also somethingthat has changed a lot. You've mentioned that now is the perfect time todisrupt human communication. Tell it. Tell us why you think that. Ialways like to use the example of the self driving car. So if youif you look at the cars today, we like, in theory, almosthave the possibility to drive a car without human interaction. So you can takecould totally autonomously drive a car. Why? Because in real time, all thedata around the car is being analyzed, processed and then hand in a wayso that the car can drive on its own right, but if youcompare it with the conversation or compared it with the video call in a morenarrow sense, there's like no technology being used at all. So you arespeaking over in zoom or Google meet or teams to someone else and there isjust technically interface, so the computer or the server between you and the customer, and still the only thing that it...

...will helps you on ables you doingis hearing someone, seeing someone and recording a local desktop, but it doesn'treally help you being better at the actual conversation. It doesn't provide you withguidance during the call, it doesn't provide you with insights how the customers actuallyreacting. It doesn't provide you with data that maybe would help you to buildstronger report, but the customer, which is all possible today, right,but none of these is currently being the case and being used in the onlinitingcase, in the case of human communication. So that's why I think there's likea tremendous potential to analyst data in real time, similar to how youdo it for self driving cars, process the data and use it in orderto help anyone have an amazing customer conversation just by giving you the data andgiving you everything that you need a real time. Yeah, it's it's certainlyan exciting moment and and so much is going to change. I mean somuch is already changing. The sales meeting, you know, the space that you'rein, the demo desk is in. I mean I in some ways thereare many, many companies. In some ways what you're doing is subtlydifferent from from those companies. But you know, you could say that maybeyou compete without reach, you might compete with companies like a Jiminy. Thepoint isn't that you have competition. The point is that you started a companyand sort of a category where there's a lot of noise and a lot ofmovement. How do you think about differentiating your company, differentiating your platform,creating some kind of long term, sustainable advantage in such a competitive environment?How do you think about doing that from from your perspective as the cofounder andCEO? It's a great question. I think we've already discussed it some time. I go rite. So I think first of all, I we don'thave so much direct confission competition. So they are we are like the onlyreal says meeting platform. You also mentioned Gemini. So they are more focusedthan analyzing conversations after the call rather than giving the sellout platform where they're coachingreal time. So it's a kind of a little bit of a different productand I'll just the same. It's also different product because it doesn't give youa meeting platform that automatically loads the right...

...playbooks into it gives you access tocontent and connects you with all the other systems that you already have implement itin a sense organization. But it is an amazing tool write to analyze audioconversations in weird time and give you like some basic hands and I think it'samazing protans, an amazing product. But it's just like a very different focusin value proposition, because we are at our core and meeting platform. Sowe are basically a zoom or it will we meet, but specifically bait forsales. So because we control this entire meeting part, we also have differentways and different possibilities of using this meeting interface in a perfect way and inan optimal way to enable to sell us. So we can, for example,define what's being shown at which one in time. We can like freelydecide whether we want to brand the entire meeting interface. We can really decidewhich data we want to analyze during the meeting and which data makes sense forthe setter to provide him within real time. So that's the core difference. Andthen also we have another unique advantage that is very unique to our platform, because we have this virtue screenshing the technology right, so when you usethem on ask you can orchestrate the entire meeting. You detached the meeting fromthe local environment of the seller and basically put it into this virtual environment thatwe can control and that use a company and theory also can control. It'sjust take a very different like level of basically guidance and level of data,and that is that we can provide when we compared with other platforms that arecurrently out on the market. First of all, very thorough answer and andyeah, I mean I think the in a great answer. And for me, what a sort of conjurs is to your point, maybe like the verticalizationof Zoom, such that you know there are personas that need more than thiskind of generic tool, which is what zoom is. Do you find thatyou know you have to focus on sort of creating a category so that peoplecan understand more quickly what you do, or does it just make perfect senseto everybody? Because I know that telling...

...the story as a founder is soimportant, given that you know you're out there raising money and talking to investorsand talking to the community at large and you need to figure out a wayto drive your message home so that there's as clear, as much clarity aspossible. Have you found that sort of your working on building a definition ofthe category so that it's it's more easily understood that some of the companies thatI mentioned are not really competitors because they're not really doing the same thing?Absolutely, a hundred percent. That has been one of the biggest challenges forus so far, right because we are taking a problem that's very big andthat's been around for a very long time and that a lot of companies,like most of the companies, have. However, we first need to explainthem. Hey, there's like a new type of product and new type ofsolution to a very old and known problem that you have. And so thefirst of course you don't understand. Hey, what is demo is about? Whatdoes it actually do and what does it do to solve my specific problem? So it's not like people would go to Google and search for certaining platformright. So like your repress doesn't go to Google and search for certainthing platforms. He would search for faster on boarding of sellers. He would make Googlefor or she would she it's a woman, right. I know the catler.She wouldn't. She wouldn't maybe Google for, for Mean Coaching Tools,saystem coaching tools, or I mean bally cards or playbooks, but she wouldlike never search for, says, meeting platforms. And that's really something thatwe first need to make sure that our market understands, and that is definitelylike a lot of work, and that also, I mean it was definitelychallenging for us in the beginning and gets easier now because we now have morevisibility and also now have a very strong team in place, is ample tosell the product properly. But we also have been going forth and back withthe name of a Category for category for quite some time. So, forexample, them until they can be do. Six months ago we thought the nameof all category would be real time stays, an implement which is likesuch a complex word, like no one really understands what actually is that,and I think just says an ablement.

Also, like just the word saysan emblement. It's also such an thick, unspecific world. So even that likethis, very unclear to like the average seller would doesn't actually mean.So we went away from that and said today now we have found the namefor a category, which is says meeting platform, says meeting software. Butthat has been a real challenge for show us and, to your point,right. And then all of these words conjure. Everybody sort of trying todifferentiate themselves in these words conjure different things. And to your point, enablement doesn'tconjure screen sharing or meetings. For me it makes me think of like, you know, lesson L or seizemaker like tools that you know you cangoogle. Like what's you know? What's our what's our go to market playbookfor you know, healthcare, and you know that'll come up as a littlecar that POPs up in your screen. But not about running a meeting effectively, which is, to the point, what demodest us so well. Soabsolutely yes. And we also don't want to build another high spot or anothersays make we want to integrate with these platforms. Right, and so wespeaking a too high school at the moment as well, to like put anintegration. So we just want to pull the content independently from what it actuallysits. So whether it's in Google drive or in high spot or in saysmake me would just want to or guru. We also have a google integration.We just want to put it into the meeting at your right point intime and provide it to the set up, and that's what our focus actually is, and also be don't want to be confused with tools like Gong orchorus. So we actually do deeply integrate with Gong and we also use goon ourselves and think if we think it's like a killer combination because we can, with the help of Com analyze our cause and understand what has been goingon and then when we know what's working, we can then implemented again into ourplaybooks in Demot is. To make sure it's repeated by everyone on team. It makes perfect sense and I can, I can totally appreciate the challenge youhave and also the opportunity. Technical question. You Know Zoom, youyou still have to download, you know, the the the desktop application or themobile APP in order to use it. Is this completely browser based, oris there you know, is there...

...something that you need to download ontoyour desktop in order to run demo? DESCA Feshi effectively completely brother base,both both for the host and for the participants. So you don't need anysoftware to install on your computer and you also don't need any extension. Yeah, that makes it way more the growth possibilities are broader, obviously, asyou know, since you're the CEO if and a lot of people. That'swhat I think. Yes, I'm I think it's too I agree with you, because I think if somebody sends me something to download, you know,the like that that I will is much lower. If absolutely. We havea few more minutes together and one thing that you have a sort of uniqueor controversial perspective on is is sort of the your perspective on on female leaders, female CEOS, female revenue leaders, on really women and leadership. Tellus what's your perspective and give us your point of view there. Yeah,I think it's almost controversial that I even mention it right topic, however,I mean just one I when I thought about that question, I think thisis typically the the one topic where I do have a very controversial perspective onit. So I I mean I am very often confronted with my genda andI personally think it shouldn't matter. So I don't want to be recognized foranything because I have a certain gender, I. which is whatever, becausethey're but I want to be recognized or I want my company to be nicebecause the product is great, because it helps customers a chief better results.And I mean, I don't get me wrong, I also think we needto actively foster a woman in leadership. So they definitely needs to be more. But I think the only way out is really like taking action and likecreating role models and just doing things rather than like speaking about it or enforcinga certain share. And I think just very often people like speak about somethingand think about things that could possibly hold them back rather than just doing it. So I'd really love to like to see more women actually doing it andalso, I mean I would also love...

...to like gender becoming a less ofan issue going forward and less of a controversial topic or less of a topicin general going forward. I appreciate where you're coming from. It's also controversialand it's also like a it's hard to figure out if, if focusing onidentity and focusing on gender issues or any other sort of DNA identifying attribute andmaking it super prominent is the way to make it less prominent in the future, or whether it's exacerbating the tension in the situation. To your point andsort of feels like maybe a little of both is required, because if younever call it out, then it's not clear what's going to how intentional thechange can be, and if you always call it out, then it feelslike maybe you're focusing on that to the detriment of more of non identity basedoutcomes. I guess, yes, it is controversial for for fair enough ronicit's been great having on the show. The last thing we like to dois kind of pay it forward, is figure out who are people you thinkwe should know about? Who are people that have influenced you? What bookshave you read that you think we should read? It it can be anyway that you want to. Can Be your favorite movie. It's ideas andhuman beings that you think are important and influential that you think we should knowabout. WHO COMES TO MIND? Well, I can just think of the peoplethat helped me a lot on my journey and that influenced me. Sowe do have an investor who is also the fonder of pipe drife. IsName is March and Hank and he has supported us since the very early daysand also has helped this a lot. mean, his insights are too manestlyhelpful. We have a regular coaching sessions with him and I always think thatI actually should pay him money rather than like taking his money, because it'sa healthy so helpful. So I think he's definitely someone that that I wouldI would name here and and then and and we like work with a lotof different advisors and the help us on the way. So you mean anotherone, for example, would be need Ryland, to see row of peakon. He's also in creably helpful and coaching US and guiding us. Andand also, I mean Tera Bryant, is also helped me a lot.She was, he says, at pipe drive for quite some time. Shehas recently changed to a new role.

I don't remember the name of thecompany now. And I mean that just a few people who help us alongthe way. And I would also encourage everyone who, mean is building acompany or mean everyone who just wants to be bet at the job. Reachout to two people that they admire a people that they are. They dosomething very well, and just asked them whether they want to be a mentora coach or advisor to them, and we do that a lot. Amazing. Yeah, and agree with that advice completely. That's I run a businesscompletely dedicated to that. So I agree with you. Yes, no tous. Also, remn a colluctive for pavilion is also very helpful. Somy my revenue leadership team, is also a member and they also think it'sincredibly valuable to exchange thoughts with like many people and also get advice and getcoaching from people who are for the longest they are. So that's a that'sa great community that we like, love and support. I will thank youvery much well, Arnica. It's been fantastic to have you in the showand we're going to bring you back on Friday for for Friday fundamentals. ButI folks want to reach out to you. Maybe they want to work for you, maybe they want to buy demo desk, maybe they need a newsales meeting platform in their lives. What's the best way to get in touchwith you? Probably by email. So my Emailissa Baronica, with a Kat demodeskcom or, of course you can also will reach out by the intercomshed on our website and people will respond. Sounds wonderful. FRONICA, thanks somuch for being on the show. We'll talk to you on Friday forFriday fundamentals. Thank you so much. It was great everybody. Great Conversationwith Fenica. Readily she's calling to us out of Munich, over covid youknow, bouncing back and forth between the bay area Munich. They've got employeesall over the world. It's just an inspiring story. It's always it's alwaysinspiring. You know, it's hard to start a company, it's hard tobe a sales leader. Frankly, it's sometimes it's just hard being a humanbeing in this crazy, crazy world that we're in. But starting a companystill has its own special set of challenges and taking the lead from a cushyjob, not that it's easy, but...

...you know, a good, greatjob like being a consultant bane into the startup world takes courage and it's excitingto see she's been working on this for four years. I'm sure we don'teven appreciate how hard it's been, and now they're over a million and Rare there over fifteen plays and they're doing something that sounds really interesting, andso I thought it was a really good conversation and I also think, youknow, she said some some pretty interesting things just about how, you know, we're in the early days of the virtual meeting space right in the sameway that we are in the very early days of autonomous driving. But inthe future will be a little surprised looking back on where we were from atechnical perspective, technological perspective at you know, how rudimentary we were and thinking aboutall of the things that are possible in a meeting that aren't currently present. And I think, not that she said this, but you know,you could even imagine, you know, virtual reality, augmented reality and howthese worlds and platforms combined to create a new kind of experience. And wealso talked about the difficulty of creating a category when people don't really know whatyou do or don't understand what you do. You know, when I heard theword Demo Desk, I thought, Oh, maybe they compete with herpriest, you know this company that does kind of demo simulations, but that'snot what they do that it's a sales meeting platform, right. So theyrun meetings in the same way that you would log into zoom. You runthe meeting through demo desk, and so then you're like, okay, it'sa compete with outrage, does it? You know, is that a salesengagement things? That a sales enablement thing? And it's turns out that, no, it's none of those things. It's really a replacement for zoom dedicatedto sales people, which is that's a use case that people understand. Butbut you have to articulate in a way that resonates, because otherwise, youknow, it can be a muddle and people's reaction to a brand is ofteninstinctual. It's often you don't have, you know, two minutes to explainto somebody that just sees the name of your company on a website. Youhave you have to make it instinctual that they understand what you do and whoyou are and what you are and that's what that is the cost and thechallenge of building a brand. So really it's hard work that she's doing andthen they're making great progress and it's really exciting to see. So congratulations toVeronica and yeah, if you want to...

...reach me. You can email me, Sama Joint PAVILIONCOM. You can go to Linkedin, linkedincom for the world, if in MF Jacobs. Thanks to our sponsors outreach, check out thenew summit series, which is the rise of revenue innovators. Go to summitthat outreached ioh. If you haven't joined pavilion yet, what are you waitingfor? This is the new way that you are going to navigate and manageyour career over the next ten, fifteen, twenty years. We're going to giveyou the skills that you need, the training that you need. We'regoing to give you mentoring so that it's not just taking a class, butit's steady, continuous, reinforced learning. Take the class, talk to theinstructor make that instructor a mentor meet with Kyle Lacy, the chief marketing officerof Leslie, once a month as a member of our associate or executive community, so that you can take the lessons that you get from marketing school orChief Marketing Officers School and drive them into your performance so that it's not aonetime, one off kind of thing. So there's a lot of different possibilitiesand options that you can get with pavilion. Go to join Pavilioncom and then,finally, Conga. They are really doing some fast things and what they'redoing is helping businesses become more agile and more adapt and you can check outmore congacom for salesacker. Thank you so much for listening and I'll talk toyou next time.

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