The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 9 months ago

196: Cracking the Code to Ultra Large Deals


In this episode of the Sales Hacker Podcast, we have Jamal Reimer, Commercial Vice President at Saama and author of Mega Deal Secrets, a book about the principles that can unlock the biggest deals of our career. Join us for an amazing conversation about principles for building an achievable, repeatable roadmap for elite performance for any sales team or individual rep selling enterprise solutions.

What You’ll Learn

  1. Go straight to executives
  2. Leverage your internal resources
  3. Make good pre-sale connections
  4. Ensure you are talking to people with influence

Show Agenda and Timestamps

  1. About Jamal Reimer & Saama [2:13]
  2. Secrets of landing mega deals [8:39]
  3. A word on authenticity [12:21]
  4. Tools to help close huge deals [16:39]
  5. How to know if you’re on track to close [21:25]
  6. Paying it forward [27:19]
  7. Sam’s Corner [29:31]

One, two, one, three, three. Hey everybody, welcome to the salesaccer podcast. Today on the show we've got Jamal rhymer. Jamal is the author of Megadeal Secrets, book all about how to close super large deals. He's also a VP of enterprise sales himself. He's he closes big deals by day. He teaches people how to do it by night. Pretty Cool Dude. Now, before we get to this amazing conversation, because if you want to know the secrets for how to close super large sales, you better keep listening. But before we get there, we got to thank our sponsors. We've got three sponsors. The first is flock Jay. With sales becoming increasingly knowledge driven and digital first, elite sales leaders are looking for ways to invest in the most important part of their tech stack, their people. Flock Jay helps sales team from five to five thousand do their best work by automatically capturing, tagging and sharing best practices wherever they are. Find out how to elevate your sales team at flock jaycom forward slash salesacker. Our second sponsor is pavilion. Pavilion is the key to getting more out of your career. Our private membership connects you with a network of thousands of like minded peers and resources where you can tap into leadership opportunities, professional development, mentorship and other services made for high growth leaders like you. Join US FOR THE PAVILION annual kickoff featuring Kim Scott, on February third. She's the author of radical candor, open to everyone, and will be featuring special awards from the pavilion community for our best and brightest members across sales, marketing, customer success and operations. Go to hop andcom for its slash events forward slash pavilion annual kickoff. Two Thousand and twenty two POPINCOM for slash events forward slash pavilion annual kickoff. Two Thousand and twenty two. Finally, outreach, the first and only engagement and intelligence platform built by revenue innovators for revenue innovators. Traditional tools don't work in a hybrid sales world. Find out why. outreaches the right solution. At Click dot outreach, dot Io, forward slash thirty MPC. Click that outreach, that io for its thirty MPC. You can hear the sirens. You know that I'm for Real, man. I'm in New York. I'm in New York City holding it down, but now we're going to listen to Jamal Rhiner rhymer. Jamal rhymer talk about how to close mega deals and we're going to go outside and yell at the sirens. Okay, goodbye. Listen to the interview. It's awesome. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the SALESACER podcast. Today on the show we've got Jamal Rymer. Let me tell you a little bit about jam all. Only a few years ago Jamal was a typical enterprise software sales rep, barely making his number. He struggled to close the bigger deals that he knew deep down were possible if he just had the right system in place. Then he cracked the code for selling ultra large deals and has since sold over a hundred and sixty million dollars in SASS revenue. Now he has refined his mega deal secrets into an achievable, reputable road map for elite performance for any sales team or individual rep selling enterprise solutions. Participants get access to the exact same system inside the master class and the book is called Mega Deal Secrets. How to find and close the biggest deal of your career, which is awesome. So, Jamal, welcome to the show. Hey say I'm thanks for having me. We're excited to have you.

So I just read your bio, but we do like to start with a little bit about your baseball card, a little bit about your background. You you live currently two lives. You are a VP of sales at a fast growing, well funded DECA corn start up and you're also an author. So just tell us a little bit about about that, tell us a little bit about the book and then tell us about what you do during the day. So direct during the day, I sell all day and it's a it's a very nice SASS company that deals with AI and machine learning, specifically in the RD space for pharmaceutical companies. Really long sale cycles, very small community. You know, my job is to run relationships with the top twenty pharmaceutic Google companies in the world. So that's what I do all day and then a couple of evenings every other week I run the master class for very ambitious sellers to help them learn how to find and close very, very large deals, which we call makea deals. So let's dive into that. Tell us a little bit about your background, how you got into sales originally. I read in your in your bio, that you know there was some some some transformation that happened over the last couple of years, I would imagine. So just walk us through a little bit about your background, how you got into sales and and we can go from there. So I got into sales out of desperation when I was in university. My parents and well, our family lived in southern Africa in the mid S and we lived in south that we lived inside of a basically inside of a country that was inside of South Africa and because of the whole world, you know, abandoning any support for the South African government, the Rent Swaziland. It was no swansee land has had a little more maturity at that time. It was a country that doesn't even exist now, but it was called Bobbie Tatswana. Oh Wow, okay. And so the rand fell in value. My parents, you know, they're savings and income was almost meaningless in the US. So I had to pay for university on my own, and the way that I found to make that happen was I started working for a company that where I was selling books door to door. Eighty hours a week every summer for five summers. That's where I got all the hard knocks and you know, you take a lot of rejection. And it's the it's the it's the most basic form of sales, right the individual to individual, complete interrupt you know, interrupting dinner sales cycle. But that's where it started. And this is in South Africa. Oh No, sorry, by that so I had come back to start university. My parents were there still a few more years. Okay, where so where was? where? We knocking on doors? Well, although I was going to school at the University of North Carolina and Chapel Hill, the company that I work for what always send the students very, very far away. So every summer it was some other town or city or suburban area in the Midwest.

Following year it was Missouri and other year it was Wisconsin, mint, almost like you were on your mission. Exactly, the bookselling mission exactly. But long story short, so that's where it started. I learned how to sell something and then, if you fast forward several years, it ultimately got me into software sales in the in the you know, the early two thousands, and then after that the gestation took it right into Sass and my first decade of selling was really quite sketchy. Some some years I was doing pretty good, other years I was very mediocre. I was fired twice in a row for under performance. Then when I was trying to get a job after that, I wasn't even sure of sales was for me and I went to a recruiter and he looked at my resume. He said HMM. I said what he's like, well, he saw that I had moved around a lot and he basically saw that I had moved around as so much. She's like, well, it's not like you worked at Oracle for ten years. Then, somehow, miraculous lead, my next job turned out to be at Oracle. Fair enough. Well, the legendary Oracle. I I'm sure you learned enterprise sales there. When, when did you discover like when did the transformation happen? The transformation happened after I moved to Europe. I married a Swedish citizen who's a physician and because it was so hard for her to kind of start over with her credentials in the US and moved to the US, I moved to Sweden and in making that switch I was given an account that was it was a count, it was an account in distress. They were thinking of leaving and they were doing a run rate of business of about ten million dollars per contract. And and that, in my business, wasn't that big. And I was mentored by my head of sales and my head of services, both of whom were like thirty year you know, foul mouthed, salty veterans of our trade, right, the Pharma Tech and together, mostly me carrying their bags. Right, I was kind of the new guy, new kid on the block, but together we took that deal and we turn it from a ten million dollar run rate deal into a fifty million dollar transformation. Well, and that's that's where my eyes were opened to it all and that's kind of where this whole megadeal thing really came from. Well, let's dive into it. So you know it's your the book. The title of the book, as I mentioned in the Intro, is megadeal secrets. So would you be willing to share with the audience of the salesacker podcast some of those secrets, you know say, and I think the biggest secret about doing mega deals there it's it's just laying there right out in front of us. There's...

...there's a few. It's really kind of principles. Think one principle is that the bigger the deal, the higher in the organization you have to go. You know, sounds obvious, but in my experiences as a like a younger seller, and what I see from so many of the sellers that I work with, there's a there's almost like a barrier to entry to selling very high into an organization. It's not comfortable. There's this big perceived Mitch mismatch, you know, there's there's on both sides right that the executives don't really want to talk to sales reps. the sales reps are kind of like, oh, how am I going to get to her? She's really high up and have all these gatekeepers around. So that's one is that you got to go really high and if you're ever if you're going to get a mega deal done within your career, you got to get there fast. Otherwise it's a long trek to get to executives if you're starting at the bottom floor. So you have to start off trying to get high, trying to go high, trying to go way above the power line. The yeah, but even that's not a straight shot because you got to do some kind of discovery. You got to know the organization in their problems. So there's a there's a real dance to do between how do you do good discovery with lower down folks without getting stuck there right because if they start to feel like they are your main contact, they'll get bent out of shape if you kind of go above them without their sponsorship. How do you do that? Well, that leads to the next principle really, which is the principle of leverage. Wherever I see that I need an asset and in something that I don't have myself, I try to go leverage it from someone else or something else that already exists. And the most success that I've had with that is leveraging my own executives. And there's another barrier there with a lot of sellers, which is that most sellers they know they can go to their executives, but they tend to do it later in the sale cycle because you know, when you're prepping an executive, a lot of executives just kind of sharpshoot whatever you're doing because they want to make sure that the deal is a hundred percent qualified before they walk in, which in my view, is an experience. It's the wrong attitude. So I go to my executives with a with a different idea, which is, hey, I know something about this account, I see some smoke, let's go make a fire, but I need your help to go make that fire. This is not qualified, but here's what I got. And then I kind of lay out the reasons on why I think there's there's a decent shot at doing a good deal because there's a you know, there's there's a fire in the engine room over there. And then I work with them together to go fail fast. You know we will go together to have my senior person...

...sometimes simply have their admin reach out to the Admin of a super senior person within the account and you know they put together those meetings all the time and if you're matched, generally matched with title and status, it's a very different ask than a sales guy trying to get into a senior person. I had an experience very recently where we are. We are a big customer to a vendor and they were trying to triple the price on the on what we were paying this year, and it was I'm in the CEO. So I was annoyed by it and was liaising with my team that was negotiating and then out of the blue I get an email from some very senior person at the other company. I guess my reaction to it at the time. I'm curious on what your reaction to my reaction is, but it just felt so mechanical, it felt so like out of the Oracle sales force playbook of, you know, senior person with nothing really to say emailing me because I'm a senior person. To do. You worry sometimes that there's not enough substance, there's not like a meaningful of compelling reason why you need to bring in a senior executive. Absolutely so. Another principle that has served me well is just authenticity. So if you match that challenge of how do you do good discovery, figure out the problem, the layout, the land, etc. Without getting stuck along with how do you map the right person from your side to speak with the right person from the customer side? How do you do that? Well, I guess the first thing is you got to go through the steps of figuring a few things out, finding out who's who in the zoo etc. But then so, for example, if, if I was that Oracle Rep who is trying to get the Sam because he's the senior guy I'm trying to get to, the last thing I would do is just kind of kind of throw an email draft over the wall to my executive and say please send this. You know, there'd be a lot of context setting so that he understood who you were and what the what the situation was, etc. And we can have a long chat about that. But I completely agree with you that if all that happens is a rote mapping process with some kind of template of an email, that that's that's that's the same thing as an SD are sending a scripted email that isn't personalized at all. It's gonna land just as flat. Yeah, exactly. So here's a question for well, let me let's go through the rest of the principles. I want to make sure we don't we don't Miss Anything, and then I have a few file up questions. So the first principle is go high. The second principle is leverage you or internal resources, if I'm sort of summarizing that accurately. What are the other principles? Well, the other thing is we have to make a shift from what I call run rate sales to selling above the clouds. And how I...

...describe that is for the first decade of my career and definitely in the perception of most of the sellers that I talked to, they go to market or they go into their territory with the Batman and a Robin, Batman and Robin Approach. So you know, Batman is the salesperson, robin is the pre sales person and they just kind of ride off into, you know, the territory. With that mentality you can do a hundred k deal, you know K, but if you want to get into the many millions, we got to shift away from the Batman and a Robin Approach and get into you got to be more like the field marshal of a Roman Legion. You know, it doesn't have to be always that huge, but certainly you're going to be bringing the a players from your organization at different levels and you're going to be pulling in folks from products and many times the sea suite. So how we go into the territory, how do we how we go to market, really changes as well, because when you start looking at doing really big deals, the risk is higher. Right there's more, there's more investment on the table. Failure and success have bigger impacts and either direction more eyes are going to be on the evaluation. So Batman Aroma doesn't work. You need to bring your bet, your best and everybody to cover all the questions that are going to or the question areas that are going to crop up, and the customer is going to bring theirs. So do you bring a different set of tools? And I ask that because when I learned, you know, I learned from a guy named Dave gove in here in New York who who works at some big security company now, but he used to work at head Tach, even Tara and a bunch of other places, and he taught me this. Essentially, it's sort of like a map that you need to build of all of the people that are on the other side. They're involved in the deal, is what they're what their powers like, what whether they are above or below the power line, like, whether they can actually make decisions, and then what their disposition is towards your solution. And you sort of have to like go through it and that will tell you what the next play to do with that person. As you know, do you do you have tools like that, you know, sophisticated mutual action plans, things like that, in order to facilitate, you know, the navigation through the enterprise so that you can close these mega deals. Very much so, and we may even use the same name. That tool I call a power map, and you know, I use it in conjunction with an org chart, and the difference is that the org chart is our attempt to capture most or all all of the players within a business unit we're selling into, but a power map is a graphic representation of just the, you know, kind of the the influencers and decision makers who were really going to move the needle in a yes or no,... know, in success or failure in a sale cycle. And it just looks different. I mean I try to keep the tools as simple as possible, because complexity just just kills clarity. And so, yeah, it's basically a sheet that we use that has quadrants in it, and the quadrants are, you know, which business units are going to be party to the decision and within those quadrants, what are the two to four, you know, senior influencers and decision makers, and then we use things like arrows, etc. To say who has the greatest influence over the other persons? Thinking what are the relationships between the people in the groups and, as you said, the disposition. So we have a number system, you know, and a color system. Are they are they green, red or yellow? You know, are they very into or very against what we're doing? Or is it our company, our solution, or the person their map to so yeah, we do use tools, but the thing I would re emphasize as we try to keep those tools simple, just because, like I said, complexity just kills clarity. How when you're in if you're an enterprise sales rep I guess what I'm thinking about as we're chatting is sort of like capacity. I'm thinking about one thing. I'm thinking about capacity. How many, like what's what should the composition of your pipeline be? Should should you know? Is it what you're doing now, Jamal? Is it are you are you a hundred percent focused on, you know, mega deals, or is it, like it's twenty percent of your pipeline so that you can, you know, you have some things that are six month sales cycles or even shorter, so that you can at least get the get some wins on the board while you're working these mega deals. How do you think about that? I think what I do is a bit unique because I have a mandate just to go for the big guys. Whether we get large deals or small deals to start with is a different story, but absolutely what you've laid out is is what I think is the right way to go. I I talk about think of you know, for a sales person, think of their territory as an investment portfolio and work with your manager or management to think of what's the risk tolerance level? You know you're going to have some bonds, you're going to have some stock among the stock, you're going to have some risky stock and some really solid you know you're going to grow stock and value, etc. And oftentimes one of the biggest questions in the early part of what I do when I'm running a masterclass is I say, you know, what percentage of your time can you reasonably take on doing mega deals? Because because you still gotta Eat, right, the company still got to eat. The company does need a run rate and that should be predictable. But if you're going to get these big advances in overall revenue over a year, at least some of your reps should be shooting, you know, swinging for the for the fences, but... should be done in a controlled way. So most of the time the percentage tends to turn out to be, you know, between twenty to forty percent of a reps time should be focused on a mega deal because they have the small deals, in the medium deals that they're working as well. But it's a decision that the REP and their manager should make together. Yeah, how I'm sure you get this question a ton. If you know, let's say we're going to close a fifty million dollar dealing together, it's probably going to take, let's say it takes eighteen months. What are the systems you use? You know, I'm a friend of mine, Travis Bryant, who is Crro at optimizedly for a while now he's on the on the by side at a red point, but he used to say, you know, we look for inspectable events. You know, they're the point being, like you can't be working on a deal for eighteen months and then find out in months seventeen that you're not going to win it. So what are the ways that you confirm your on track to close? And at what point? I guess at what point. You know there's the sunk cost effect of like you still need a system six months in or nine months and where if you get the wrong signals, you got a folds. You got to say this is not worth my time anymore. But how do you think about that, because I'm sure it's a pretty emotional decision if you've invested that time. How do you confirm that you're on the right track over the course of a very long sale cycle? I think you use a good word and maybe I should start thinking of it in that way. What is what is the system for doing that? The way that I've operationalized it so far is more like how do you you ask yourself some hard question. So one of the hardest questions that I ask is do I have a champion really, or do I have a few champions really, because a mistake that I've made in the past and I don't can I continue to make. You know, I got to challenge myself on is falling in love with what you think is a champion. Certainly there are other elements, but this is the really the first one that's coming to mind. Where you get into a sale cycle and you get somebody fairly or really senior and they give you lots of intell about what's going on and you make progress and then at some point the communication slows down or you know they're not sharing as much or they start to reveal that they don't have as much influence on the decisions they thought that they did, and you know it's it's at that point then, my when my ears really go up and two things happen. One, I start asking them for more stuff to see if they will or if they can, and secondly, as I start to question their willingness or ability to continue the cycle forward, I really start to pick up, not from the ground level, because I do it from the beginning anyway, but I spend more time with some other players in the game who can also be as or maybe even more, influential. And then the second thing is...

...what's going on on the ground. So typically with large deals there's at least two conversations going on. One is with the project team on the ground and the other is at the more senior level. If you if you set it up right, you've got both of those talk tracks going on. Those lines of communication are open. So what I just refer to in the champion stuff I'm really talking about at the senior level. Are The lines communication open? Is there communication happening and am I getting the right signals and are we making progress at the senior level? But the whole second level is what's going on on the ground. So it could be that the the champions like, Yep, this is the best thing since lie spread, I can't wait to make it work, and then they say we just got to make sure that the project team is on board too, and that right there, what they're really saying is, I mean, I like what you got, but I'm not going to make it decision on my own. And then there's a whole another set of tests that we do at the ground level, which is I did a different variation of the same kind of test that you do at the senior level. I'll give you an example. We're in a we're in a sale cycle right now where some of the project team are clearly with us and some are becoming clearly not with us. So we're not supposed to we're in a competitive situation and we're only supposed to get so much time from the project team, but we're asking for more time by saying that hey, in the last session that we had. We felt that there was some either some resistance or some misunderstanding about either what our solution does, what it's for, etc. We'd like to ask for more time to either clarify it or Redo it, and right now we're waiting for the answer to that. And that's a great example of a test. If they come back and they say, Oh, yeah, I felt that too, we should, we should get that clarified, let's get that on the board, that's actually what's happening. So that's a good sign. But if they if they say something like yeah, no, we're going to stick to the rules. Nobody supposed to get more time than the other. So you know, you've had your shot and we're just going to move on to the next gate, that's a bad sign. And if you get enough bad signals, and I can't you know, it's not formulaic. I can't say if you get three bad signals, that's the number you have to decide. But when you get enough bad signals, we either threaten or do stop a process. And to stop a process you need alignment all the way up the chain with internally, and so preparing your organization, or at least your management chain, by saying, Hey, I feel we're at two strikes. If we get one more strike, I think we should rethink. Let's have a meeting right now to agree on yeah, we do need one more strike before we make this call. And then how do we do it and what do we say, etc. So another thing that I...

...think a lot about with these big deals is it is a lot like chess and although you can't see twenty steps ahead, you always need to be thinking two or three steps ahead. You know, if this outcome is positive, what do we do? If this outcome is negative, what you do? And then maybe one more and think two steps ahead. That's it's the sage advice. Jamal, were roughly at the end of our time together, but before we go we like to pay it forward a little bit. figure out you just wrote a book, but what a you know, it's nice frame this in a different way every time I have this conversation, but what are the ideas that you think we should be aware if? It could be books that you've read, it could be mentors or people that have been really influential to you. Who are you know, if we wanted to follow the bread crumb trail and figure out what who made Jamal Jamal. What influences do you point to? I mean, the the biggest influences are the two individuals that will remain nameless just because I got to keep the whole book anonymous, so that that's not much of a help. But I get a lot of both encouragement and good ideas from the general sales community. I mean, I got to give a shout out to just, you know, people on Linkedin. There's some people who already, you know, know how to do really large deals who are also influencers. So Ian CONNIAC is one, brandon flu hardy is another. We have dialogs fairly often on the whole topic. But I'll tell you, it's a it's a small world of folks that do really large deals and I reach out to individuals who are not in any way influencers. Some of them are very willing to talk and other ones would rather kind of keep their craft to themselves. So, in terms of books, selling to the sea suite was a big influence on me, the Challenger sale and the Challenger customer customer, we're also big influences. But then there are these other books, you know, everything from atomic habits to another one which is not really a sales book but I really get into it, is called the power of moments. You know, how you can actually craft a moment to be memorable and impactful long beyond when the meeting or the show or the presentation is over. I love it. Jamal, thanks for being in. Great guests. We're going to talk to you on Friday for Friday fundamentals, but it's been great having on the show. Thanks having me. Sam. Hey everybody, Sam's Jacob. This is SAM's corner. I think I said Sam's Jacob. That it. Maybe I am Sam's Jacob. Who knows? Maybe I'm Jacobs. Is Sam? Here's the point. Great Conversation with Jamal Rhymer. Jamal lives in southern Sweden. Did you pick up on that? He is. It's just it's just cool. He's he's doing global sales and close in Mega deals, close in ten fifty million dollar deals, all from southern Sweden near Copenhagen, because his wife is a doctor licensed in Sweden and she needed to practice there. So also just cool that you know he he relocated on...

...her behalf. Oftentimes, given traditional, stereotypical gender roles, it's the woman relocating. So nice to see it when it happens in reverse. I don't mean that in any other way other than to school. But that's not the point. Here's the point megadeals. They are hard to do and they require a lot of structure in process and I thought Jamal gave us so many great tips and so many great insights, and the first and the biggest of them is you got to you got to start at the top right. You got to go to the sea. You want to close a hundred million dollar deal, it's got to be a priority of the business, a priority of the sea. Sweet one of the biggest mistakes you can make, and this is why in one of the books I really recommend that you read if you're trying to close big deals is challenge or customer, in addition the challenge or sale, because they present all kinds of different frameworks, frameworks for you to think about in terms of who these people are that you're you know. Challenger says takes eleven people to close a big deal. I would imagine in an enterprise situation where you're trying to close at ten million dollar deal, it might take as many as twenty or thirty people. And there's two groups. Right, there's a project management group and then there's the group at the up these sea suite, and so Jamal's point is, hey, you got to make sure that that you're that you have the right champion in place and that you are talking to people with actual power. And one of the mistakes, as I was saying before, that you might make is you end up talking to people that will talk to you, and you got to think about that. Why is somebody in the big company? Why do they have so much time for you? Sometimes it's because they are mobilizers, is challenger customer would say, and because they can make things happen and they want to and they're passionate about the work that you're doing. And sometimes it's because they just like talking to people and they don't like doing stuff. And you have to be very careful that you don't get caught talking to people that that just are talking to you because they pick up the phone, but that don't have any actual influence or power within the organization, because that is a place, that is a way to waste a lot of your time. And so how do you get around that? And Jamal talked a lot about it. We did this when I've done large enter price sales. You give these people tests. You have to test them. You have to ask them to do things and see if they're capable of doing them. It might be get you a meeting with somebody very senior. It might be get you some kind of special information they have. You have to they have to demonstrate back to you, and got to do this in a diplomatic way, but they have to demonstrate back to you that they are capable of moving things around, because closing a fifty million dollar deal means moving things around on behalf of the company, so that you need to know that they can move things around so that at least you're on the right track. Something to think about before we go. Let's think our sponsors. We've got three. Flock Jay. With sales becoming increasingly knowledge driven and digital first, elite sales leaders are looking for ways to invest in the most important part of their tech stack, their people. Flock Jay helps sales team from five to five thousand do their best work by automatically capturing, tagging and sharing best practices wherever they are. Find out how to elevate your sales team at flock Jaycom. Forward Slash salesacker. Of course, outreach, the first and...

...only engagement and intelligence platform built by revenue innovators for revenue innovators. The website there is clicked. That outreached, OT IO for its thirty MNBC. Of course, pavilion. Hey, register for our annual kickoff. It's happening on February. Third we've got Kim Scott, the author of radical candor. The URL is Hopincom for slash events, and then these this phrase, but with hyphens in between. Pavilion annual kick off two thousand and twenty two. Right, that's it. Pavilion Annual Kickoff Two thousand and twenty two. If you haven't given us five stars yet, please do so. If you're not a member of the salesack community yet, you're definitely missing out. Any sales professional can join. They're seventeen thousand people that are in there that can help you, that can answer questions. Where you can ask questions, you can ask questions, they can ask questions, you can answer questions. Give us five stars and get in touch with me if you want. Sam At joined pavilioncom is my email. All right, I'll talk to you soon. Hope you're well.

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