The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

179: Cultural Insight on Operating a Regional Office w/ Paula Shannon


In this episode of the Sales Hacker Podcast, we have Paula Shannon , Chief Evangelist at Lilt , a machine learning company focused on language translation. Join us for an engaging conversation about language, sales, career success, and embracing cultural differences in leadership.

What You’ll Learn 

- How to open a regional office

- When to use functional heads in lines of reporting

- The importance of understanding company finances

- What has changed in sales over the last two decades

Show Agenda and Timestamps

About Paula Shannon & Lilt [3:02]

The mandate of a chief evangelist [8:10]

Adapting sales processes internationally [12:02]

2 recent changes in consumers and sales [19:14]

Advice to today’s young workers [23:47]

Paying it forward: Shout-outs [30:03]

Sam’s Corner [34:11]

One, two, one, three, three. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the SALESACER podcast. Today on the show we've got Paula Shannon. Paul is the chief evangelist at little twitches, a machine learning company focus on language translation. Really Cool Company. She brings over thirty five years of sales experience, a leadership experience both at public and private companies. It's a great conversation. She's also accomplished linguist and really knows a lot about how company should expand regionally to make sure that you maximize your growth. So it's a great conversation. Before we get there, we have three sponsors we want to thank. The first is outreach. Outreach has been a long time sponsor this podcast and we're excited to announce that their annual road show series, unleash summit series, is back in person this fall in Austin, Chicago, San Francisco, New York City and London. This year's theme is the rise of revenue innovators. Join a new cohort of revenue leaders who are transforming the world of buying and selling by arming their sellers with a single, unified engagement and intelligence platform. Get more details. Save Your spot at summit dot outreach doto and do it fast, because tickets are limited. We're also brought to you by pavilion. Pavilion is the key to getting more out of your career. Our private membership connects you with a network of thousands of like minded peers and resources where you can tap into leadership opportunities, training, mentorship and other services made for high growth leaders like you, wherever you are at in your career. If you're new to your career, join the analyst community. If you're at the senior levels and you've achieved the VP title, joined the executive community and take one of the courses that pavilion offers, including frontline manager school, Chief of an officers school, Chief Marketing Officer School and over ten more full programs replete with certifications. Learn more at joint PAVILIONCOM. And finally, we want to thank air call. Air Calls a cloud based voice platform that ingrates seamlessly with popular productivity and help us tools from call monitoring and whispering, integrations with your crm and real time analytics. Air Call can help turbo charge your sales reps productivity set a new standard for sales productivity and performance by switching to a phone system that's best friends with your serum. Get twenty percent off your first three months at air call, at air call sales hackercom. That's all, one word, air call sales hackercom. Now, without further ado, let's listen to my conversation with Paula Shannon. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the sales hacker podcast. Today we're excited to welcome Paulishannon to the show. Paula is the chief evangelist at Lilt, and let me tell you a little bit about her background. She has well over twenty years of sales experience. She served as chief sales officer at svp from Ninus ninety ninety nine to twenty seventeen. At Lion Bridge, running their six hundred million dollar, million dollar global sales team. From two thousand and eight to eleven, she acted as the CO general manager of the core business, managing over twenty eight hundred employees across the world and delivering profit on a three hundred million dollar pnl. She drove new services in sustainable solutions, developed teaching accounts and ensured the continued delivery of innovation and execution excellence to global one thousand customers. She's also previously served on the board of several Montreal technology startups and is also served...

...on the board, I'll fit figure out if I can pronounce this right way, the phone Reginald de Solderte ftq field in Montreal, which is a venture fund arm of the eight and a half billion dollar phone de Sila d'rte de Trevelleur de Quebec Development Capital Fund. Paul, you'll tell me if I figured that out, if I said that the right way. She's got a deep background, more than thirty years of industry experience in languages, including ten years in senior roles with burlits international in California, Washington, DC and Canada. She's fluent in English, French and Dutch and functional in German, Spanish and Russia. Educated in Canada, Belgium, in the US, shields of BEA and Russian and German, with a minor and linguistics from McGill University. Paula, welcome to the show, Sam. Thank you. I'm happy to be here today with you. Thanks for having me. So did I pronounce tell me about the fund that you worked out from Montreal. Did I pronounce that correctly. How do you say you were? You were frighteningly well those you were being on. So yeah, that was I mean you did a great job. It's a mouthful, though, a I mean even even in French and they always love the essentially it's a pension fund that the court right the FTQ, which is a so it's a solidarity fund to Pension Fund for workers, for Quebec workers. And then the small fund was there for a into having a venture capital fund, kind of someone that would invest more in startups, technology, etc. So we can certainly talk about that at a later point in the interview, but you can always imagine that a core pension fund that looks at, you know, how many jobs do we create? What kind of you know, expansion of factories do we create? Might have a hard time thinking about venture financing where, you know, the goal was not necessarily to be creating seats and jobs, right, it was to create value. Yeah, well, well, it should that. We may get into that, but first we also want to make sure that we give you an opportunity to tell us about Lilt, and also your role is chief evangelist. So what is lilt? Give us a little bit of background on the company because it's a really interesting company. Yeah, thanks for that chance. It really is. I mean it is just the the most innovative company I've worked with in my entire career. So lilt has proprietary technology in the field of translation technology. They've created machine translation. So you think of automatic translation, the founders of Lilt had worked. One well, completing a PhD at Stanford, the other his supervisor, also at Stanford but now full professor at Berkeley, and they were working within the Google translate team. So born of that was kind of, if you will, almost next generation approach to using automated technology with language, and so lilt expanded initial rounds with Zetta and then with sequoia, and they expanded to include services. So it's a truly innovative a firm that combines human in the loop, translators, linguists powered by this innovative...

...automated machine translation technology that is both adaptive and predictive, meaning it learns from the human at a very deep level. So who do you sell to? Tell me about the the business model for Lilt. Well, what's exciting is that they're fearless and so really able to sell to other startups. I mean I think you're probably so familiar with that, Sam you know that working within the portfolio they've been introductions and crossovers, but they bat well above their weight. So they've sold to a number of just large global firms, including Intel, where they swooped in and were able to win their global business and offered such an incredibly innovative solution that Intel capital took a look and then came on board for their series be. So that's a that's the kind of dream scenario that any entrepreneur or founder would love to find themselves in, and you can imagine from there. It's just it's a range of some of the top technology firms, top startups and initially, I think the tech they were focused more on tech and BTC tech companies, but they've really refined their their integrated model with services and technology and they're able to do some pretty demanding kinds of content like financial services and even medical devices and pharmaceutical awesome, amazing. And as chief evangelist, what tell us about what you're what your mandate is? Well, my man date really. I mean it's funny in a way. I find some of it's looking in the past because obviously my experience and the years that I have spent in the language services industry is attractive for little so fundamentally on there to make connections and to truly advocate for them. So there might have been customers initially who are skeptical about using automated technology. You know, there's a conundrum. You know, can humans do this better? Most people understand automated technology from maybe a poor experience with something like a Google translate, and the reality when you put a human in the center is that it's like a self driving car. I mean the human could drive the car all the time, they could also decide when it's better to let the the artificial intelligence take over. That's precisely what lilt has built. So I think I act as an advocate. I certainly make connections to people help them also make the jump from maybe an evaluation framework they're comfortable with to away or Lens or perspective that lets them look at lilts approach to this process, which is which is very different, and I do a lot of outreach, writing and webinars and that type of thing. Sam Amazing. Let's talk about how you got here. You know, I read your bio and you have a rich background and in languages. You also spend a long time with burlitz. But tell us about a little bit about your career. You know the you've had so many...

...different experiences. What were some of the format of experiences and how did you ultimately, because you have a rich sales background, how did you translate your language background into sales acumen to help companies grow? Oh thanks, that's that's a fun one to tackle. I guess breaking it down, I'd say that the my background, as you say, it was languages at an academic level. I had done taken languages and linguistics at university, but I always had two other areas where I was very curious and also working, and so I worked summers as a paste up artist in the sense doing desktop publishing at Newspaper and magazine Publishing Company, and then I also had minor level courses in computer sciences. I was a root one hundred and twenty eight baby. My Dad grew up in the tech boom in Massachusetts. Long before there was Silicon Valley right there was root one hundred and twenty eight. So those things didn't go together at all. When I was entering university, language was still very literary. And then I had the computer piece and the publishing. Well, I got really lucky because after starting my career with Berlitz, where they had a classic management trainee program so I was the beneficiary of just incredible investment in teaching you about operations, finance, management, HR sales for sure, and marketing. You had a chance to then go out and run a region, a set of offices, a set of regions, and blitz as well was expanding at the same time, going from kind of consumer document translation, if you will, to being forced to consider how to serve the needs of blossoming technology industry that was pretty hungry for some global translation services. So all of a sudden software localization became really the biggest growth area in the translation market. And now my computer science background, my desktop publishing and content coupled with six languages seems almost, you know, like it was planned, but I assure you it was not. It was a complete accident, as most of the best things in life usually are. Wow, I think in some of the though, the research that I've done, in some of the information you provided, you really are an expert in kind of not just selling but adapting sales and sales process to cultural differences around the world. Did your language interest and background help propel that expertise? Absolutely, Yes, that's exactly what happened. So you'd asked how I got into sales. I mean as a general manager in the Berlitz model you need to be responsible for sales and when I first expanded my career in the industry, I I guess I started as a global account manager and then as regional sales manager and then, you know, worked my way up to VP and then at Lyon Bridge, just chief revenue, chief...

...sales officer, and so working and doing training, hiring. I realize that my knowledge of languages and my comfort in different cultures and traveling around the world was a huge benefit. And there were an awful lot of firms coming in those days out of the states, especially technology and software. It was almost all centered in the US and foisting their approach on the regional offices or other countries. And early on I took a very different approach to respect and kind of mine, you know, what was different and unique in that market and try to find a way to take proven sales methodologies that that are valuable and do work. You know, the basics of needs, satisfaction, the basics of customer centricity, even the basics, on some level, of challenging but adapting it for that given market or culture, and I just found that to be so much fun. And of course the regional offices blossomed with that approach because it was something that they hadn't been offered before. There's a lot of challenges that companies face when they try to take their existing sales process and really their existing go to market process and simply apply it to a new country. What do you see is the biggest the biggest challenges and obstacles, and what some of the advice that you give companies that want to open a new office in London, maybe they want to open on office in Mumbai, maybe they want to open on office in Paris and there are cultural differences. How do you how do you help those companies adapt or if you were to give advice to those companies, what would you what advice would you offer? Oh, that's that. I mean, that's such a big question, but let like thinking about this just in a level maybe of my own experience. I think that one of the things I would advise against. I was never a great fan of having expatriates be kind of the leader or the manager. It's a shortcut, you know, it's comfortable. Maybe back twenty years ago it was. It was kind of the default because it was very difficult, you know, to find truly global citizens that were also perhaps adept in your line of work or service. It just sets the wrong tone. I mean, if you're, if you truly are ready to invest in a region or a locale far better to take the time to hire slowly someone who represents the absolute culture bridge that you're trying to create and have that local person, or at least that regionally local person, run the show for you. Otherwise, you're right. I mean, Sam it just becomes a clone of your central or your domestic operation and it bleeds into everything you do. It means you're going to be pushing not just US or wherever your company's headquartered. You're going to push your internal processes onto a new market. You're going to be less likely to be open minded about adapting your product or service and I think these days you when we look at customer experience, I'm so jazz because we're finally entering an...

...era where there's a notional idea of a global customer experience officer or kind of Global Cxo. And what we find is so few companies really look at what the experiences across the entire buy our life cycle for all of their regions and locale. So yes, my experience in North America might be I have these touch points in my journey, but the German client may already be failing because four or five of those touch points don't even exist in their markets. So I think if you're not ready to go global and open an office, partner, you know, colocate, do something that's maybe a halfway measure. But if you are ready, then you should be ready to hire locally and staff locally. One of the challenges that people exactly to your point, the challenges that companies faces. They feel like if they don't have the expat running the office, they lose what they think is special about their company, which might be the culture. At the same time, if they bring on somebody completely you know but to the point, maybe they can't adapt to the local culture as well. And there's always also a question of functional reporting lines and is it better to have the head of the European office and all of the different disparate responsibilities and functions. Marketing, sales, product report to a regional head, or maybe there's a global head and you know you got somebody working in London that's reporting back to somebody in New York, even though, in the time zone, they're dealing with challenges that only their team in London can help solve. Do you have a point of view on or chart and organizational design in that reality? Oh, I mean yeah, because I've I've probably executed limitless number of flawed organizational plans, you know, along those lines. I think, Sam it is just an absolute pendulum that is always swinging back and forth, but not where you want it at the moment. You know, you just at are constantly evolving. So, to be more specific and answer your question, I think if you're in an environment where control is paramount, meaning cost your thin margin. Growth is not the story. Compliance is perhaps part of your DNA, then a kind of geographic command and control organization makes a lot of sense because you're going to be managing all of the leases, you know, hr issues, the things that the hygiene, the corporate hygiene, is going to be perfect if growth and culture are more the focus than I think the pain of having a functionally aligned organization, meaning sales reports into regional sales or or product line sales and then rolls up globally marketing the same thing. It's a much more rich organization. And going back to the very first point you made, it is very hard to hire locally and it is really hard to indoctrinate inculcate your culture with a local person, but it is...

...what is needed and it's so much more valuable than having a cookie cutter expad approach. That's one of the things that you've mentioned is just sort of the evolution of customer experience. But you know, you've worked in so many different capacities. You've worked at Burlitz, you've worked at I think it's called Lion Bridge. You're now at an early stage company. What do you think's change the most about how people buy and how companies sell over the last, you know, one or two decades? No, that's that's great. I think two things I if I'm looking at this different axes. You know, one is just the consumerization of everything. So the demands that used to be present only in real B Toc companies, you know, who were directly interacting with their consumer, are now everywhere. Because we expect to interact with Bob experiences should be a seamless and flawless as our BTC experiences in our private life, right. So we have that expectation. So that's kind of behaviorally, I think, what's really changed. And when I impose global language and culture on that, it means, you know, it really has to be that same level of ease of interaction that I might have with a big brand like an Amazon or an Ebate in my be to be interactions. And then the second is technology, and I think that when I was first starting out, a broad range of languages for a given product. You know, in the early days Microsoft Windows was in four languages, which was just huge, right. IBM used to do too. Then you had peripherals and devices like printers and you quickly went out to ten languages. And then there was a golden moment where anybody like a Hewlett Packard, a compact, early days, Dell and HP, they were issuing their products and forty plus language is forty fifty, let's say. And then all of a sudden mobile devices come along, smartphones, nooky elites the pack with language and boom there's not a product that's release that is not ninety languages base, and then Microsoft, with games and the next generation of mobile devices, takes that almost table stakes number up to about a hundred and twenty seven. So now you have consumers around the globe who absolutely demand and get access to technology in their local language, sometimes even regional languages, and so they've put tremendous pressure on experience that they expect at bigger brands. So it's kind of crazy because you had a mobile device available in a hundred languages, but you might have had back then British Airways online web presence available only in ten languages. So there was a huge gap and that's closed quite quickly now. Amazing. Yeah, it really is fascinating. You've got a lot of really interesting perspectives on growth and one of one of the perspectives that you have is, you know, in this in this environment that were currently in work, capital is abundant and companies are so fixated on becoming...

...the next you know, even beyond unicorn or a dec of corn. Your perspective is sometimes this growth mandate is a real impediment, it's a real challenge and it can really sabotage, you know, the health of a company. Talk a little bit about your perspective and what you've seen. When people have a growth at all cost mandate. It's very hard, Sam to see that, because I have to constantly ask myself, you know, is this a valid observation that I'm having, or is it me being out of sink and out of step because I haven't been successful at that or didn't? Didn't, you know, flourish and that environment? So jury still out on whether it's my own personal weakness or a really good conviction. But I do see this and I find it sad. And what I'm talking about is that you know that growth grow fast at any cost. You know. So let's say you're in an early stage investment, maybe VC somewhere, you know, certainly series a or be, and your partner, your investor, is putting enormous pressure on you with all of the Cliche is, you know, we're going to keep you lean so that you you know, you innovate, you've got to grow exper center, you're not going to be interesting. So the reason I find that sad is that sometimes there are great ideas that need to kind of perkly a bit and change and adapt. They need experience and they need a little bit of time or you know you're trying to catch a big fish. Sometimes you don't real that fish and right away you tease the line a little bit. Well, the the investors are looking at this in a completely different way right they understand that a certain number of their investments in a given portfolio will fail and they want to get to success as quickly as possible. So what's good for the investor may not be good for the entrepreneur or the founder who's pushed to es faster than is natural and winds up failing because of that. So I don't know what the solution to that is. You know it's a function of the capital markets, but it is sad to watch when it happens. Completely agree with you, Paul it you know you've had such an incredible career. One of the questions before we go that I would love to dive into is just your advice. You know, your advice for for maybe yourself, where you to enter the workforce? You know in two thousand and twenty one for people that are new to their sales career. What's advice that you give to to young people that are just entering or beginning their careers as they look at navigating a twenty or thirty year career and hopefully finding the same level of success that you have. Well, it's such a fun thing to be able to do with people who are really receptive and I just I don't think there's anything I enjoy more than coaching and being involved. I think that's why it's so fun working at lilt right now, because they are incredibly young right just nimble, agile problem solvers. But I offer and find that I want to give the advice. You know that it's completely healthy and appropriate to not be focused on that trajectory. I find that a lot of people are so hyper focused on the perfect line that's going up to the right hand corner...

...of their career. You know that every job change has to be a salary increase, you know, a promotion, the title increase, and they're often very afraid to try things or to experiment. And I think the thing that I learned the most is that detours and even steps backwards, certainly step sideways, are some of the most important things you could do. So, as I said, when I first entered software localization it didn't even exist. On some level, stepping out of Berlitz has core business, which was managing language schools and publishing materials, you know, CD realms and books. Looked kind of silly, like why would you not want to be in the core business and jumping over to this new kind of peripheral activity? I wound up being a brilliant thing to do, but it could have failed. And then the other thing is I had an amazing opportunity in two thousand and eight to step out of sales and to take on with a CO general manager, the running of the entire three hundred million dollar pl at Lion Bridge for all of their translation services business. So I prepped for that, I did some external training and leadership skills and boom, I'm ready to go and the downturn hits, the crash hits. So it probably wouldn't have been offered to me as an opportunity had we been in distress at the time. But once in the job we had no choice. We had to figure out a way to, you know, cut costs, lay people off. The business had a thirty two percent downturn in revenue within the space of three to four weeks in January of two thousand and nine. It was it was you know, we all went through this. We all know what it was like, but it was just horrendous and so I learned a lot from that. I learned that sometimes these detours are the most important thing. And then the final answer Sam coming out of that, I realized how important it is to understand how your company makes money and if you haven't had the fundamental training on MBA background and finance, get it somehow, whether you do a university kind of, you know, certificate program you take a finance for non financial managers. I mean it's not that hard. You know, you need to just be able to go beyond operations and a pnl level knowledge and really understand how your board is looking at it, how your investors are looking at it. So I was really lucky that in the last five ten years of my career I sat as a as a management representative, you know, within our public company board. I interacted with our board and participated in the number of very large mergers and acquisitions that led up to the sale of Lionbridge to private equity. I learned so much in that process about how other people outside of the sales and marketing function look at revenue and Growth and I never would have been in a position to do...

...that if I hadn't bolstered my finance knowledge. That is such an important point and you know, we talked about it before we recording and something that we actually teach in my my company, Pavilion. We have the Siro School. In the first course is called a theory of enterprise value, because so many sales leaders just do not they don't have a fundamental understanding of how value is created and how that translates into money, and I think that's if you don't have that understanding, it just really limits your upside in terms of your executive potential. You are going to be putting on a very different persona when you interact at the highest levels of your career with a board or with investors. So it's a fine line because there is, of course a need for you are representing the optimism about making a stretch number or a revenue growth, but at the moment that you are in that boardroom they are going to prize pragmatism, mastery of the numbers and just kind of more, you know, less selling and more kind of informing, and I think that this is where there's an opportunity to just work on you, on your persona. Have that right persona at the right time. Charismatic sales leader in the field with your people hack, yes, absolutely, but in the board room you better know your stuff. If you present data, understand that you will need to present it again with an update and or a retroactive trend, and speak in facts, speak in actual you know, as opposed to being emotional, and I think that that is not kind of a side swipe. You know that women are more emotional in the sales field. They are not, but I do think they have to battle that preconception. And so if you want to get to the highest levels the Sam what you're offering through pavilion is exactly what people who want to be future leaders need to understand and know and then stop selling and and start participating as an executive at that level. It's great advice, Paula. We're almost at the end of our time together and what we like to do in this last little bit is kind of pay it forward a little bit and figure out who are people, what is content. It could be books that you've read, it could be bosses that you've had, it could be colleagues that you've had, just ideas or humans that you think we should know about that if influenced you, that you'd like us to be aware of. When I frame it like that, who comes to mind? Who are some of the ideas or books that you think we should know about that have had a big impact on you? Well, one of the first, and I didn't prep for this, so I hope I get the name right, it's the six lessons from private equity that every firm can use. I think that's the title. Could look it up. It's a mackensey publication. That is really small, it's a quick read and it's a it's just such a great book. We had taken a look at it as a public company prior to going through the private equity process, to challenge ourselves and to say like, well, why do we need to do this? You know why. Why... it that someone from outside is going to be able to transform us? Why wouldn't we be able to do it ourselves? And while there are loads of reasons why, you know that. That is there were a number of lessons that I took away from that that I almost wish that I had read it earlier in my career. I would have. I would have been better off. And the other one is a group that I worked with. I don't want to do a commercial, but I'd would. I'd be remiss if I didn't put points out how amazing these these guys in this team were. It's a group called sales benchmarking index. I don't know if you know of them. Have you ever worked with us? Beid? I am aware of them and you know we've had, actually my companies have had partnership conversation, so I'm pretty familiar with spid. But well, I just have nothing but good things to say about the journey that we went on together. So round one of discussing potential exits with private equity was difficult. The fact that we had three round Sam probably tells you what you need to know. It wasn't smooth. was very hard. Round two we brought in, and I brought in sales benchmarking index to help with a fundamental talent review from bottoms up of the entire organization, and it was a very scary thing to do. I mean I honestly felt it was a fifty chance that I would be in my job at the end of this process, but I also felt so committed to the company and the journey we've been on that if we didn't do that, we weren't going to actually be able to get where we needed to go, and I just found that the professionalism they brought to doing reviews of individuals, territory planning, bottoms up, compensation planning, just overhauling all of the kind of last mile of the business was amazing. I love it. Paula, we're going to talk to on Friday for Friday fundamentals, but if folks want to are listening and want to reach out, maybe they're inspired, maybe they have some questions. Are you open to contact from the outside world and, if so, what's your preferred method of communication? Oh, I definitely am, and yes, very, very much so. Emails easiest. Paula at liltcom. I mean that's pretty simple, right. So that's extremely simple. I love it. That's so for me, that would be the easiest and then from there, you know, we could figure it out. But one of the things I missed the most about my job as CSO at a huge company was the opportunity to be out with new process and customers, launching new products and learning, you know, about these different businesses. So you think about language. You're touching so many different kinds of companies, you know, from products and tech to burbery clothing to Royal Caribbean cruise lines, and it was amazing to see all the different business challenges that they had around global and be part of a team that would solve them. So I miss that. So if someone comes out they got some good questions, that would just get my brain working again. I would really love it. Amazing. Paula, you've been a great guest. Thanks so much for being our guest on the...

...salesccer podcast and we're going to talk to on Friday for Friday fundamentals. That sounds great. They Sam. I really enjoyed it. Thank you, everybody. It's Sam Jacobs, SAM's corner the end of the show. I love that conversation with Paul Shannon. A couple really important things that I think she said that I just want to control, be and control you right. The first is she has a strong point of view on how to open a regional office. Traditionally it's send somebody from Home Office have them open the office. They know the culture, they know how you do things. They can tell the Brits or the French or the Indians or the Chinese or wherever you're doing your new office, they can tell them how it's done. And Paula says don't do that. Find a really talented local representative and that way you can make sure that the office is adapted to the local culture and that from the beginning the company recognizes that it needs to make some modifications to how it does business and we're going to do business with the people in that country where they feel respected and acknowledged for their differences, for what is unique about their culture. She also said, you know, it really depends if you're solving for profit or you're solving for growth. If you're solving for growth, you still may want functional heads, meaning str report to a global head of sales development. Maybe in the Home Office, maybe the salespeople report up through a regional sales head and then to the head of global sales, whereas marketing people report to a possibly regional marketing person, but maybe they report to the Global Marketing Person. So again there's sort of two differences. There's two possibilities. One is there's a head of the London office and everybody reports into that person with dotted lines to the functional heads and then there's another world where all of the different functional heads report to the global head and it's a dotted line to maybe the office manager of the office sleep. So Paula thinks it depends on what if you're solving for growth or profit. If you're solving for growth, toffer back to the global head of functional responsibilities. If you're solving for profit, maybe just have a gem of Amia that everybody reports into. Second things you said, or second point that I would just like to underscore is just this. HOW DO COMPANIES MAKE MONEY? And we talk about it a lot in pavilion. I just would encourage everybody to be out there that if you're listening, if you're thinking, you want to be a great sales leader, you want to be Seeo and day, you want to be a chief revntow officer, you have to understand how value is created within your Organiza. It sounds obvious, I understand. You know what's to understand, Sam, I get it. We sell software, they pay us for the software. But if you don't, if you understand profit right, not just revenue generation, but profit, Ebit dot, earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation amortization, if you don't understand the financial performance of the company, which is to generate free cash. It is not necessarily just to grow top line revenue, it is to generate free cash over time. If you don't understand that, you're going to pay people too much, you are going to have compensation plans that don't align with the growth of the business, you are going to overstaff, you are going to misunderstand the fundamental performance of how your company grows and generates profit, and so just something that every executive needs to know at some point one way or the other, and Paula really made that point and brought it home. So great comments, great conversation. I really enjoyed speaking with her.

Now before we go, of course, we want to thank our sponsors. Of course, outreach. The unleashed summit series is coming to a number of incredible cities, including Austin, Chicago, San Francisco, New York and London. So get your tickets at summit dot outreach dotoh. If you haven't signed up for a pavilion membership, you haven't taken frontline manager school, Sales Acceleration School, our SDR boot camp, any of those programs, make sure you do so unlock your professional potential and become that person that you want to be at joint PAVILIONCOM. And finally, are call head on over to air. Call Sales Hacker docom to get twenty percent off your first three months. Finally, if you're not a member of the salesaccer community yet, you're missing out. Over twenty fivezero professionals are in there asking and answering questions. It's a great community of like minded sales professionals. Go to sales hackercom. If you haven't given us five stars, please do so. If you want to get in touch with me, email on these Samit, joint PAVILIONCOM and otherwise I'll talk to you next time.

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