The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 1 month ago

189: Meaningful Recognition: How to Show Your Employees That You Care

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode of the Sales Hacker Podcast, we have Kevin Yip, COO & Co-Founder at Blueboard, an employee recognition company he founded after working 100-hour weeks without appreciation. Join us for a frank conversation about recognizing your employees’ achievements and rewarding them with experiences that matter.

What You’ll Learn 

  1. The rich reward of giving your employees personal experiences
  2. Building a company out of joy
  3. Learning what you’re good at as an entrepreneur
  4. Scaling to offer a community 

Show Agenda and Timestamps 

  1. About Kevin Yip & Blueboard [2:20]
  2. How burnout led to Kevin’s entrepreneurship [5:00]
  3. The surprising things about running a startup [12:25]
  4. How to scale sales & marketing [15:15]
  5. A philosophy for finding and keeping talent [19:00]
  6. Paying it forward [23:00]
  7. Sam’s Corner [26:20]

One, two, one, everybody, it's Sam Jacob's welcome to the salesaccer podcast. Today on the show we'vegot inspiring entrepreneur and cofounder and Chief Operating Officer of Blueboard, Kevin Yep it'sgoing to talk to you about the origin story behind starting this company, whichis fantastic, and also some of the lessons that he's learned over the courseof building the company of the last couple of years. Before we get there, we've got a couple sponsors we want to thank. The first is outreach. Out Reaches the first and only engagement and intelligence platform built by revenue innovatorsfor revenue innovators. Out which allows you to commit to accurate sales forecast andreplace manual process with real time guidance and unlock actionable customer intelligence that guides youand your team to win more off in traditional tools don't work in a hybridsales world. Find out why outreach is the right solution at quick dot outreachDil for three hundred and two MPC. PODCAST is also sponsored by pavilion.Pavilion is the key to getting more out of your career. A private membershipgives you access to thousands of like minded peers, dozens of courses in schoolsthrough Pavilion University, and over Onezero workbooks, template scripts and playbooks to accelerate yourdevelopment. The best companies in the world are purchasing pavilion for teams corporatememberships for their employees to ensure that you are trained and supported over the courseof your career journey. So if your company doesn't have a pavilion membership foryou, make sure that you ask your boss. Learn more today at joinPAVILIONCOM. And finally, Conga. As doing business becomes increasingly complex, itgets harder to do it well. Businesses often sacrifice agility and lose sight ofthe customer experience. CONGA's expertise and comprehensive solution suite for commercial operations, transformingthe documents and processes surrounding customer engagement, CPQ and Celm, helps businesses meetcustomer needs while increasing agility to adapt to change. Who wrote that is barelyEnglish, but that doesn't matter because Conga is a kickass solution. From thatdescription, I don't know what they do, but I'm sure it's important and Iknow a lot of great people that work there, and God bless themall. Check them out. Congacom, forward, slash, sales hacker,CPQ, Celm all the things that you need. It's comprehensive and it's asuite for commercial operations. So that's great. Now let's listen to my conversation withKevin. You. Hey, everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to thesales hacker podcast. Today on the show we are excited to have KevinHip. Kevin is a cofounder and Chief Operating Officer of Blue Board, andexperiential recognition platform, rewards and incentives company. Prior to blue board, Kevin dida lap in the corporate world of PWC and owned Rant, a smallJapanese curry bar in San Francisco. If you run into him, ask himabout his night hanging out with the USA basketball team in Shanghai, a peakexperience, and things have been downhill ever since. Kevin, show to theshow. What's up, Sam, thanks for having me. Birth I own. We like to start with your baseball card, but we're definitely going tobe asking you about your running with the US basketball team. But before weget there, you're the CO founder and Coo Blue Board. Tell us inyour words, what is Blue Board. Blue Board is an amazing company.Well, we do is we help organizations reward, recognize and celebrate their peopleby giving them awesome experiences. So if you are the top sales person forthe quarter or that, you know, you said the most meetings, andas an str or, you get recognized for getting a patent, as anengineer, your manager, director, boss, company, whoever, can reward youto a blue board experience. And that goes from anything to a couple'smassage Michelin, Start Dinner Napa, going sky diving for the first time,all the way up to, you know, we've had people, you know,do the incatrail, you know, Eighty Mile Hike, hiking up tomatch your Peachu or, you know, learning to surf in Bali. Soit really runs a spectrum. Adding last year we did experiences in over seventycountries. I want to choose from? Yeah, thousands of experiences. That'sawesome. And how how old does the...

...company on? Give us help usframe the where the company is in its growth projectory. How much money theyright, you know, whatever you want to tell us about how big youare. Yeah, I know, definitely. So as of now we're about ahundred sixty employees. We've raised a couple rounds of venture capital. NotSixteen million total, you know. How about, you know, three hundredand fifty companies to use in the product? You know where? We know where. We have ask platform. Yeah, so, we so it's kind oflike a it's a Sass market place, right. And so we have asoftware for you know V, piece of HRV, piece of sales,to manage kind of their recognition and incentive programs. So, you know,approval, is, budgeting, etc. And then, as an employee,you know, we have an online many you importal, where you log in, choose an experience and then you get paired with the concierge that helps planand book the entire thing for you. And so it is a mix ofkind of like SAS marketplace and then a service component to get you out onthe experience. It's awesome. How did you how did you in your cofounder? You know what? Tell us the origin story. I'm sure it's interesting. Yeah, I know, definitely. So me and my buddy, Iwent to high school with them out here in San Francisco. We were roommatesand our first corporate jobs after college and I was working as a fun,sexy auditor at Price Water House coopers. Fun Job, but you know,we were you know, we came home one time and we lived with afew other guys that we had grown up with and I kind of just likewas venting at the end of the day. We were like it was kind oflike the count, you know, like that, you know, theeighth night in a row I come home a roommates are, you know,in the living room. We're watching like a San Francisco giants game or warriorsgame, what have you. They just like felt so like routine and I'mlike, Dude, we become the most boring fucking people and it only tookone year working in the corporate world for it's like suck like the life outof us. They like we were just like really low energy. We'd livefor the weekends, like we weren't doing anything interesting. It was just likekind of like this sad moment and realization, and so we started talking about justlike what we've been wanting to do, and so we took a pack betweenroommates and so with the Path was, hey, we're going to spend oneday a week. That shocking right, like very difficult one day a weekdoing something we've always wanted to do right, and we're not going tolet work, we're not going to let like anything kind of get in ourway of it. And so I took Krab Magon lessons, kind of Israelimartial arts, my cofounder did singing lessons. We had a couple other of ourroommates take up guitar, and so basically what happened was, you know, we did that for about, you know, three, four months,and we started to, you know, become happier, we started to feelmore fulfilled. We were building mastery in like Kravmagon, right, we werelooking forward to it. It was adding this new wrinkle to our character andat the end of a kind of like the path, it was just kindof done on us as like it's like something so simple, doing something newyou've always wanted to do one day a week could lead to just so muchlike happiness and fulfillment, and so we're like, we're literally just like wewant to start a company helping people do exactly this, like things they've wantedto do, try love experiences and and so we we kind of abruptly quitour jobs and probably a little too soon because we actually didn't have a businessmodel where like how do we get to experiences into the hands of people?That was in June two thousand and twelve now, because we quit a littleabruptly before we actually had a product of business model idea, it took usa couple of years to kind of evolve and come up with a business today. And so like how we ended up kind of, you know, becominglike a rewards, incentives of recognition company. Was We had been bringing story andI've been talking about my experience at...

PBC and I was basically put ona project a year and audit and then in the beginning of it had acouple team members quit. I ended up having to take on their work.We weren't able to replace them and I was working on a hundred hour weeksfor about two and a half months, rights twelve, fifteen hour days,seven days a week. You know, for that bankers out there right,you know, they know it's a complete and not a grand and I wasin you know, I'm salaried, so there's no overtime, there's no bonusand at the end of it, frankly, just like stress, like anxious.I'm also twenty five pounds heavier. My girlfriend at the Times on theverge of breaking up with me. It's a miserable human being. And mymanager comes out to me. It was like, Kevin, thank you somuch for your hard work, like we could not have done this without you, and she put down like an mx gift card on my desk and likesplit it over and it just felt, you know, just super impersonal,transactional. Honestly, it kind of felt like a slap in the face.You know, I had done like hundreds of hours of overtime and I gotlike a two hundred fifty gift card for it, and so I was kindof like pissed and you know how we kind of started talking about as Ioh, would have been alternative experience. Imagine if my manager come up tome and said like hey, Kevin, like I know you've you know,you've been really frustrated with your health. We look a little puggy. Idon't know if she'd say that, but I shouldn't be. It's okay.I told myself I just had see myself in the mirror every day and she'dbe I got an Eve boxing actually got you out. You know, aboxing membership to the gym reround the corner, you know, for three months.You know, go enjoy that after work. Or Hey, I knowyou and your girlfriend haven't send much time together because you've been here seven daysa week. You take her out to a nice dinner date, but maybeshe's a one pain class. Same cost as the MX gift card, butimagine how much more personal and thoughtful that would have felt for me as thishard working employ and so that was kind of like the Aha moment of like, Oh shit, like companies are really well intentioned, managers are really wellintentioned. Right. My manager, like you know, the COPBC had probably, you know, millions. Now I know millions of dollars budget. Mymanager had to, you know, write aver quest to reward me, likeI had to get approve, she had to go pick up the gift card. A lot of work and at the end of it I felt like itwas a slap in the face. And so like kind of like that lasta mile of like let's deliver something meaningful and personal. And so, yeah, that was kind of the origin story. You know, it's been, youknow, feel feeling really grateful to kind of just to kind of seeyou know over the evolution of the last couple of years that you know,forms do care about the employees. They want to do something cool for them, you know, they want to celebrate them in a fun way, andso it's been it's been good, good for business and just good to see. I think that's awesome. And so what how did you it's always aninteresting story question how you split responsibilities as you grow. So you all beendoing this for a while. I've been doing this for eight years at least, and you're the CEO and I would imagine that your other buddy is theCEO. How did you figure out what it happens to be a CEO,because I think the definition of that job evolves and changes, and how obvioussplit responsibilities between yourself and your other cofounder. Yeah, yeah, so that kindof early on. We honestly used to do everything together. Let's designproduct, let's let's let's sell, let's, you know, get experience providers onour platform, let's sell organizations, and so we did everything together.Obviously it's not scalable and you know how it end up splitting. was asCEO, I run our go to market, so marketing, sales, customer success, or Account Management Team, and then finance rolls up to me.He splits product engineering and operations, and so that's kind of how how it'slaid out. You know, I think the Clo at varying stages is,you know, is a pretty ambiguous title,...

...right. You can be the youknow, the operating leader at scale, kind of like a Tim Cook toSteve Jobs, or you can be, you know, a sales leader ora product leader. Right, it just depends and I think everyone justneeds to find what works for them in their org. What have you?Besides, you know, the epiphany, which is which is a great story, but what have you learned about running a company over the last couple ofyears? What's been the most surprising thing and, you know, what lessonshave you learned that you can share for people that want to start their owncompany? Yeah, this is like, I mean there's so many I'm learninglike literally every freaking day, like I make mistakes all the time and Ithink like early on, and I think you know it, you also haveto find like what it is you're good at as an entrepreneur and really orientaround that. Some people are like brilliant engineers, right. Some people area brilliant product people, you know, for us. You know, Idid. Yeah, I didn't have any like me, like it started thislike when I was like twenty three or twenty four, I think, andI'd really know skills other than just let's work my ass off and let's becurious and being close to the customer, like really understanding like what they want, understanding your market. I think there's something, you know, principle I'vealways fallen on, you know, in an you know instance for this iswhen we when we got our first customer. We know, crunch based data usedto be free, and so we had downloaded, like, you know, a report from from their website of all the startups in San Francisco thatraised over ten million dollars, right, and we had all the address data. We layered it over this like kind of free application called like pad mapper, because they they had act, we had access to kind of their mapping, and so we literally just went door to door over three hundred companies aSF to pitch people, and so we got a lot of feedback, gota lot of nose, but I think what we did was every single timewere like, how do we refine the pitch? How do we? Howdo we say hi to that? You know the person at the front deskbetter and you know, it was a grind. We got kicked out oftons of businesses. I got escorted out of dropbocks when they were another company. That was interesting, but we got one customer from it and that wasall we needed, right, as a startup, you know, you reallyyou know, out of a hunt, you a hundred thousands of knows.You need one, yes, to kind of like serve them and then figureout what other customers kind of look and feel like them. And, youknow, and ended up being. We talked about you know, we weretalking to a receptionist at the front desk of a startup called Vungal. Atthe time they were thirty employees and their new VP of talent was and thefront waiting for a kidney to come in and he was like Eric was like, Oh, it sounds super interesting what you guys doing, and so hewalked over to him. He's like, all right, I gotta go tointerview, but email me. This is interesting and I think our team wouldlove it. And like that was kind of you know, it's probably likenumber two hundred right. You know, there's two hundred business that we hadgone to, but you know, that's all we needed and then from there, you know, you know, they're still a customer today. Have,you know, several hundred employees. But kind of that curiosity makes with grindhas something we always like fall back on. How he developed your go to marketchops to the point, you know, you were had a little bit ofexperience as an auditor, but now you're running sales and marketing. What'sbesides being curious? How we thought about scaling that side of the organization.Yeah, I know, it's been good and honestly, like you know,in the beginning it's a lot of what you know sales soccer offer offers.Now, right, it's community. It's like reaching out to people, askingthem for lunch and coffee. Probably read every single, you know, salesbook I could and started just developing kind of like my perspective right of likeOh, like, this is interesting, let's actually try it in real lifeand figuring out what works and doesn't work. You know, now that we're atscale right, you know, we...

...got a fullblown kind of you know, go to market. You know, it's all about hiring the right leadersfor us right is like how do we hire the right leaders to help kindof take us to this next level? And so I'm always kind of justlooking for the best people. But over the years, like you know,there's different kind of mentors and advisors at different at different stages and, youknow, a very like, you know, Awesome Mentor we had at the beginningof this journey. You know, we went through an incubator called fivehundred startups in two thousand and fifteen, and we are like, you know, the the twelve batch of companies to go through that program. A GuyMatt Ellsworth, who had been a you know, a startup go to marketleader, really helped us out and thinking about, you know, how doyou position, like how do you message? How do you incentivize people with pricingand packaging? How do you you know, how do you going tobe like as a you know, as a team of two? How areyou thinking about being a full stack sales rep right, and customer success manager? Right? And so he helped us really think through that, I think, early on, which was cool, like tools, like we are oneof the first customers of outreach. We know, we bought them, Ithink when they probably had like eight or nine employees and back then, likehaving the tool like that was super helpful because no one really had access toand so that kind of give us a leg up. And so I've alwaysbeen kind of on the forefront of like ire what new tools are out therethat can really help us get a leg up on the competition. That obviouslythat doesn't last forever, but it is like an advantage that, you know, as a start up in a free market, you're always looking for youradvantages, and so anyway, so that's it's one I've been I'm always kindof like keeping a pulse on any tools recently that you've come across that you'resuper excited about. It's a good one, you know, to be honest,like there's some, listen, like you know, simple ones that Idon't think would like blow your socks off, but like they're a little expensive,so we haven't been able to afford them. Clear, bit clean dataat scale super important, and that has been a god sense. That's beenamazing. Another one, you know, one of that is actually really helped. I mean just conversions everything, Chili Piper on our like, on ourlike actual like kind of leads submission to like demo booked. As I Ithink it's grown from like forty or fifty percent so like high eighty percent.So it's been super helpful for a couple. But what clear? Yeah, both, and both are awesome questions. So you mentioned, you know now, that job for you, and it tends to be for a lot ofcompanies, is about finding and attracting the right talent. How do you thinkabout an obviously blue board is one part of how companies themselves can make surethat they're appealing and attractive to potential employees. But when you're thinking about, youknow, strategies for finding great talent and for getting them to want towork for Blue Board, what have you developed in terms of a philosophy oran approach that helps you find the right people to work at Blue Board?Yeah, and so, like when I think and just kind of like aslike a principle that I tend to lean on and think about often. Sothere was this Antarctic explore Edward Shackleton kind of in London and eighteen, Ithink eighteen hundred's really nice. Hundred's not sure, but he was recruiting peopleto go on this. You know this, this this adventure and mission to anArctica, right. And so rather than kind of, you know,talking about like the glory and like how nice is it's going to be,he was like adventures wanted a long line. I'm going to butcher this, buthe's like adventures. Wanted like guaranteed scurvy, near certain death, likehe listed out like the ten things, like of like you know you're goingto die from. And he was at the end he's like, he's like, but he's like, but it's going...

...to be a freaking adventure. You'regoing to remember it more or less, right. And so I think it'slike coming out being authentic, just being true about the role in the companyand leading from that has always been something I think about, right. Andso you know, for us we talk a lot about our mission, right, and like our product, right, and why we're here. Right.Weren't expect you know, at the core, right, blue board, you know, kind of from the Oldin story, weird experienced company. Right, ourmission is to help people challenge our comfort zones, indulge in their passionsand try something new. That's why we exist. And so, like,we're very upfron about that and you know it tends to attract a certain typeof people, right, people that are experienced, O inted, people that, you know, don't give you know, you know don't give things as Christmasgifts that you know they're buying. You know they're you know, they'rebuying their siblings like, you know, tickets to the game or like alike a road trip, right, and like so, like those are thetypes of people that like really grow what we do and get really excited aboutour company. And so that's what we lead with from there's obviously kind oflike that's that kind of the principle, one of the one of the shadowGi'es that like we've taken is, you know, it's always hard, youknow, as a start up, to go and find the person who's doneit before, right, and for us, like we've been able to, youknow, we've, you know, kind of in the early days,been able to really grow the company off like kind of those zero to onemeters, right. And so how do you how do you level people up, you know, when they haven't done a job before? Right? Howdo you get them access to your investors network, for Mentorship, for help, and so like that's been something like we always think about is like it'slike not just finding the people, but once you find them, like Ilike, let's freaking invest in them, right, let's corrow them. Butas a startup it's super freaking important. I think, like a lot ofpeople would just think that's like for big companies. But you know, somethingwe've thought about since day one. You know, as an example, ourhead of marketing, you know, she came from Google and was at anagency before, and you know, I've been awesome and leading kind of likeour growth and development. When we brought on an investor, one of thethe venture partners used to be the CMO at strife and was one of themarketing leaders at Linkedin, obviously during when they were coming up, and connectedthe two of them and you know our investor and mentioned her and like advisedher and kind of like was a person to like run different ideas on orlike at our stage, what's important? What do we really need to prioritize? And so just things like that, giving your people access to your resourcesand leveling them up super important. But yeah, but it takes a lotof energy. Takes flings of energy as it does. Yes, it does, Kevin. We're almost at the end of our time together and the lastthing we like to do before we go is kind of pay it forward alittle bit gets get some of the people or ideas that were really influential toyou. That could be investors you look up to, it could be otherfounders, it could be mentors, it just could it could be books thatyou've read that you think we should read. When I frame it like that,you know, ways of paying it forward, to follow the bread crumbtrail. You know, who comes to mind or what comes to mind thatyou think we should know about? Yeah, I know, absolutely so. Youknow, I'd say in the last kind of you know, couple yearsof growth, you know, kind of like going from like, you know, you know a little, you know, five to ten million ar to liketwenty plus, kind of like the stage we're at right now. Thisadvisor that we were introduced through it do, an investor, Scott Broomfield, hasbeen absolutely amazing and just like a joy to work with. He wasthe he was a CFO and and and and CMO at a time of exactlythe kind of incentive comp software when they went public and you know, tookthem public and then, you know, took them through their acquisition, ofknow with missed equity partners, and he's just been amazing to think, tokind of bat around ideas and think through...

...how do we build kind of likeblue board as a machine, right, and so like what types of youknow, what types of models, you know, are we looking at?So he helped us build out our early plan forecasting model, how that kindof like filters into our revenue build and then how we look at what wecall like a sales pod model of like okay, like if you're building pipeline, you know, and you hire on a pot of you on str andAE. What is that kind of the respective amount of kind of you know, marketing and sales, you know, investment. You need to generate pipelinealong with that ramp and you know that's super important kind of at any youknow, I did any scale the business. But once you kind of get starting, you know, you started getting consistent when rates you kind of startingto know your customer profile. Like building out that sales machine and that thatmodeled thinking an approach has been really helpful and I scrolling to where we areand I'm Scott Broomfield. Is that right? Scott Broomfield? Amazing Dude, he'sand it once again like blueboard just attracts this certain type of person.He kind of rode up to our office and he's like gets an, he'slike on this motorcycle and I'm like, he's like hey, you guys,got any tea coffee? Like I just wrote up from Santa Cruz. Iwas just freezing and I'm like okay, like anyways, he's are you alsois loves racing motorcycles and death. Big Experience Guy. But you know,I think like in what you do, it's always good to it just kindof de reiterate that the tent attraction rate. Talk about the mission a lot andit's going to tract that, you know, the person that I resonates. Anyways, I love it, Kevin. If folks want to get in touchwith you, maybe they want to work up blueboard, maybe want tobuy blueboard. What's the best way to find follow up from this podcast?Yeah, I know. Now you can email me, Kevin and blue boycom. It's a good way to get in touch with me. But the bestway I could shamieletin request in a note carry your pigeon San Francisco in arichmond smoke smoke signal exactly, but yeah, nine, I didn't email and lidto his best. Sounds great, Kevin. Thanks so much. We'lltalk to you on Friday for Friday fundamentals. Thanks so much for being our gueston the show. Awesome. Thanks him, everybody. Sam, Jacob, SAM's corner. Great Conversation with Kevin. Yet he's been doing this for along time. He quit his job in two thousand and twelve. It'stwo thousand and twenty one, almost two thousand and twenty two. So it'salmost ten years that he's been working on this and I feel like we boreit's probably only kind of like a cheap escape velocity in the last couple ofyears. So this has been passion project, at Labor of love, and hedid it and he and his cofounders did it really molded after their coreidentity right. They were people that he learned probow in the butcher I youpronounce Krav mccraw. You know somebody? I'm sorry, that's not how yousaying. I'm not a martial artist, but you know some of his oneof his buddies, his roommates, you know, went how to play theguitar. They we're gonna saying this is about experiences. They love experiences.Kevin loves experiences. He wants to leave his dent in the world. Hewants to he wants to suck the marrow from, you know, from life, from the bones of life, and and so that's what blue board isbuilt right. Blue Board is a company focus on providing experiences to people.And he did that and that that comes from his soul, that comes fromhis passion. And so many companies, so many founders, you know,they start a company because they just start convinced that they should be in chargeof something, because they come from a privilege background and they're just they thinkthat they are special, and they probably are. Many of them are special. But sometimes we will build things out of love, out of true joyand love, and that's those are the lasting companies from my perspective, thoseare the companies that people remember. It it's because these are things people wouldbe doing even if you didn't pay them or if you paid them a littlebit less. And I just feel that way about blue board, about aboutwhat Kevin's building. So thought it was a great conversation and it really ispretty cool. And you know, I love that anecdote that he had aboutworking a hundred dollars a week and his...

...boss gives them a two hundred andfifty dollar gift card and it just, you know, no thought. So, unfortunately I've done that to my wife sometimes and I'm getting better, though. I'm getting better at at just taking a moment, being present, justtake a second step back, be present and think, what does this personlike to do with is this person love? Because once you think about somebody thatyou care about and you think about what they actually enjoy and love,and it becomes not so hard to buy presence for them, although sometimes they'revery picky and finicky and and then, you know, you pick out somethingthat you're trying to be yourself and you pick something that you genuinely like,and then they look at it say it's very ugly, and so that happenstoo, but not all the time, and anyway, it's a thought thatcounts in the effort. Just put some effort into it. Anyway. Thankyou for listening. Thanks to our sponsors. We've got three of them. Thefirst is outreach. Traditional tools don't work in a hybrid sales world.So find out why. outreaches the right solution at Click, dot outreach,dot Io, forward, zero and PC. We do have a pen. Clickthat Ourachteo. You can remember that. Forward Slash and then zero MPC.That is a special code. That code will get you access to asecret room where all of the secrets of sales engagement and resm innovation will bemade available to you. Also, if you haven't asked your boss to sponsoryour membership and your team's membership to pavilion for teams, what are you waitingfor? The Best Companies, the pavilion certified employers are those that provide training, professional development, mentorship and community and comarronery to what can be really lonelyjobs, and they do that through a corporate pavilion membership. So unlock thecareer of your dreams and tell your boss by applying today at Joint PAVILIONCOM finally, Conga. Conga does a lot of important things, such as customer engagement, CPQ and CLM, and that helps businesses meet customer needs while increasing agilityto adapt to change. Check them out of Congacom for salesacker. Do youhaven't given US five stars? Please do that if you want to get intouch with me. You can email me Sam with joint pavilioncom otherwise I'll talkthe next time.

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