The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode 214 · 3 months ago

Flockjay Has the Cheat Code For a Successful Team

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, we've got Shaan Hathiramani with us. Shaan is the Founder and CEO of Flockjay. Shaan started Flockjay as a way to train people from non technical backgrounds and usher them into the tech ecosystem primarily through sales. Now Shaan has made Flockjay a platform to give managers and sales leaders cheat codes to how and why they win by following the journey of their success stories.

What You’ll Learn

  1. The evolution of Flockjay, going from an academy to shining a spotlight on what companies do well and not so well
  2. Having the proper structure and being a good product leader would enable you to sustain to tough times
  3. How to do more with less as a sales leader

One, two, one, everybody, welcome to the sales hacker podcast. Today on the show we've got the CEO and founder of a really cool company called Flock Jay, Shaun Haffy Ramani, and we talk about this evolution of Flock Jay's journey from being a training solution, of Training Academy for people from Non Technical background non tech backgrounds, and welcome welcoming them into the tech ecosystem primarily through sales, and they've built a platform over the last year and really it's a platform with even bigger aspirations than the academy idea that I just articulated. So it's a great conversation. It's an inspiring journey that Sean articulates and he's all about helping create upward mobility for people that don't have the same privileges that folks like me do. So it's a great conversation. I hope you enjoy it. First we're gonna hear from our sponsors and then we'll hear the interview. This episode of the Sales Hacker podcast is brought to you by outreach. outreaches the first and only engagement and intelligence platform built by revenue innovators for revenue innovators. Outreach allows you to commit to accurate sale is forecasting, replace manual process with real time guidance and unlock actionable customer intelligence that guides you and your team to win more often, traditional tools don't work in a hybrid sales world. Find out why outreaches the right solution at click dot outreach, dot io forward slash thirty MPC. That is click dot outreach, dot io forward slash thirty MPC. This episode of the Sales Hacker podcast is sponsored by pavilion. Pavilion is the key to getting more out of your career. Our private membership connects you with a network of thousands of like minded peers and resources where you can tap into dozens of classes and training through Pavilion University. Make sure you take advantage of the pavilion for teams corporate membership and enroll your entire go to market team in one of our industry leading schools and courses, including marketing school, Sales School, Sales Development School and Revenue Operations School. Unlock your professional potential and your team's professional potential with a pavilion membership. GETS STARTED TODAY AT JOIN PAVILION DOT Com. Once again, that's joined PAVILION DOT COM. This episode of the sales soccer podcast is brought to you by Veri sint. High Performing Revenue Organizations have a plan for growth. Get Yours with verison. SET SMARTER goals and design territories to maximize your revenue potential. Create incentivize, create incentives that motivate the behaviors needed to achieve your goals. Use Ai driven insights to make better decisions and outdo previous performance. Learn how verisnt can help you create a predictable growth engine at verisin dot com forward slash sales hacker. Again. That is Verisin DOT com, forward slash sales hack. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the sales hacker podcast. Today on the show we've got Sean Happy Romani. Sean is the CEO of a a really interesting company called Flock J. Let me tell you a little bit about him. Growing up in a first generation family, Seawan saw how challenging it can be for American families to achieve the promise of upward mobility when denied access to quality education and networks of opportunity after graduating college. In the two thousand eight great recession, Shawn spent nearly a decade teaching financial literacy and other last mile skills in Chicago and New York, also working in the financial services industry. Sean founded flock Ja to empower upward mobility through education and access. As CEO, Sean is responsible for delivering on the company's mission to help build a more just world where everyone can achieve the promise of upward mobility. Sean, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Sam. We're excited to have you. So we like to start with your baseball card. I just read, uh, you know, sort of like the mission statement, a little bit of flock j, but we want to give you an opportunity to tell us what the company does in your words. So in your words, tell us about flock j. What do you do, how do you do it and where are you in your in your growth journey? Sure, Umm, Sean, I'm proud and grateful to be leading flock j. Our mission, as you mentioned, is to expand access, it's upward mobility, specifically through education on the job, focusing on sales and go to market professionals in particular. I think we can all agree in the past three years, let alone the past three months. Um, a lot has changed in terms of how we just think about showing up to work, especially in sales, one of...

...the most accessible and upwardly mobile career paths, and we're really focused on aggregating, structuring and surfacing winning knowledge and companies to give reps, managers and sales leaders the cheap codes to how and why they win, and we've built a platform that, end to end, is purpose built to do that. That's I would love to dive into that a little bit more. So. You started off as a as a boot camp, if I'm not mistaken, helping people from underrepresentative diverse backgrounds enter, kind of like the sales ecosystem, but now you've built a platform. Tell us about that evolution a little bit. Yeah, in many ways we're following the journey of our learners and our graduates as they start their careers, and so I started flock Jay, as you mentioned, with a singular mission of providing a platform for folks from all kinds of backgrounds, retail, hospitality, you name it, to access what to me is still when the best kept secrets for upper mobility in our economy today, Um, the software sales profession and just broadly speaking, Um, you know, sales jobs in general. There in many ways, uh, leveraging lived and life experiences and with some training and some mentorship and support, can unlock a whole different quality of life and leadership potential and career growth. And in that journey of building our sales academy and especially, you know, during the pandemic, we were we haven't always been remote first in terms of how we train folks historically and how our company has been. The thing that was just glaringly obvious as folks graduated our program and started SDR and AE jobs and fantastic companies, is even the most tenured and storied Um, you know, enterprise software companies were fundamentally not set up for their rep success in onboarding and continuous learning in rapidly changing market that we all exist in today and the work environment without, you know, in many cases, four walls of an office and all the sort of historical crutches that we leaned on to help folks get situated in a job, ramp up on a job, continue to hit their number, drive productivity, become leaders Um, whether that's peer to peer mentorship or tapping someone on the shoulder and asking how to do something or um going on a walk and really sort of collecting that institutional knowledge. A lot of that has crumbled and so we kind of took a step back and said, what's the larger problem here? What's the structural problem? We can graduate hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of students, but will still be a drop in the bucket of a much larger structural industry problem of rewriting how and why, you know, we train our folks and our fundamental understanding of how and why we win at our jobs, particularly in sales. So that led us, Um close to you know, a year ago at this point, to make a really important and difficult but, you know, very clear eyed decision to say, Hey, we're going to support the folks who are just starting in their careers, SDRs a es, you know, from your first inbound job to your enterprise, a seven figure deal job, and support them in unlocking the cheap codes of the organization and succeeding better and faster. So that's kind of the journey from going from that boot Camp Academy model two building a much larger platform for individual companies to capture winning knowledge in their companies. Structured in a way where folks can access it readily and, you know, understand the blueprints for success and then surface it at the right times and signal boost to folks who are really making everyone around them better. That's that is of fascinating of solution. Do you it feels like you started in one specific category,...

...which is, you know, sort of like boot camps for people getting into tech sales, and that's an understood category. There's a bunch of players, you among them, in that, but now you're moving into a much larger, even more competitive if I'm not mistaken, because it almost sounds like in some ways it's, you know, like a seismic lessonly like almost like an l m s or some kind of UH sales enablement solution that you're moving into like a much broader market and a much broader category. Am I thinking about that the right way? You are in many ways, and I think that highlights something that most sales leaders encounter once they hit some degree of repeatability and scale within the organization. Is this nagging feeling that hut, maybe I should start thinking about training my reps or building some kind of sales process or building some kind of order. And historically, you're right, there have been sort of like these go to things you kind of have to do, you don't really want to do them. Maybe it's getting some kind of old or traditional learning management system or content management system, and I think what a lot of sales leaders are realizing is that that's sort of like assumed playbook of here's how it's done in the past has to be rewritten, because those click and play videos and quizzes and repositories and containers and file cabinets of knowledge, those are the historical large, you know, super slow moving dinosaur in many ways commoditized categories of tools to purchase. But this is both a tools problem, like these tools haven't been fundamentally constructed to keep up with a hybrid remote, first, rapidly changing market and, frankly, millennial and Gen Z sellar oriented industry we live in Um and it also is a much larger sort of like cultural consider ration. There's so many tools, even beyond the ones you've mentioned, that any sales rep has in their rouser in a given day, whether it's call recording or prospecting or, you know, data enrichment. There's so many things we've got going on. How do we build a training platform and process that integrates into the flow of work and really rethinks the idea of enablement in many ways, shifting from this idea of let's just throw content into containers, whether it's click and plate quizzes or, you know, repositories and folders, and really create a culture where reps are helping enable each other. Right, a brother and a sister are helping a brother and sister out. That's the winning knowledge. That's the stuff that de facto reps are already trying to do. They're trying to tap the folks who understand how this works and ask them for help, as opposed to rely on these old, traditional, very slow, Um and frankly outdated systems of learning. So we're bringing a lot of the expertise and Um and, frankly, insights from training thousands of learners as an academy to rewrite how this whole learning category exists within go to market teams. Well, that's really exciting. How did have you did you have a technical background? How has it been moving from what's effectively a services business to, you know, product and engineering business, because my experience, I you know, as we're talking about offline I run a CEO Community and I work with a lot of founders that who are my peers, that have services businesses that are building products and to a person, it's been a challenging evolution for them. Have you? Have you found similar challenges, or has it been, you know, pretty seamless moving from again, you know, sort of like a training business too, much more of a software business over the last you know, year or so? Yeah, I would hesitate to say anything is seamless these days in the world we live in. But I think...

...one of the traits I value, you know, most in both being a founder and a CEO and also just anyone I work with, is humility and knowing when you're not the smartest person in the room. And a lot of my job is to Um, you know, get sort of like a mile wide and an inch deep on a lot of things. Right I'm flock Jay's first and original BDR myself. I did you know I did a lot of flock Jay's original design. I did some of the initial sort of front end work for website building and some technical stuff, but I am by no means, you know, the sharpest technical person in the room and I think where I can sort of like learn the most is bringing really smart people together who are excited about the mission of and and sort of see that Tam of how large this problem is, of all this institutional knowledge that's stuck in companies and Um help organize and structure Um, sort of like the product roadmap and uh, translate the vision into lines of code and into a platform that is ultimately something that reps use every day. Right. That's the goal is, is having that Avenger style, you know, resource where you have a pop up screen, you know, in your dial and you're able to get the information you need to do your job better. Um. So it's definitely been, you know, a challenge in learning about so many different domains and making that transition in many ways, but it's also been incredibly fulfilling. It's stretched me, Um in an entirely new way to think about Um, how we do what we do and why we do what we do. I love it. Well, let's let's go back to the beginning a little bit, because we still haven't talked a lot about the vision and the mission for Flock J and and what prompted you to start the company. So you know, tell us a little bit about how you got here? What? What led you to start the company? What's your background? Give us, give us a sense of the evolution that led us to the point. Sure so. You know, as you mentioned in the Intro, I joined the workforce in a time that feels eerily similar to today's world, where, I think there were a lot of unanswered questions and a lot of uncertainty in terms of how markets, industries and, frankly, just like the Um, the feeling of our our country and our world would would evolve right through the two thousand eight great recession. And at the time I certainly didn't have, you know, the mental frameworks or the lived experience to think about my career in terms of, you know, what gives me energy or what are my areas of expertise that I can apply, you know, to a job and sort of match that perfectly. off student debt and how do I pay for rent? And you know, that led me to join the financial services industry and also led me to start teaching financial literacy and the side. It was a set of skills that I certainly had not been exposed to growing up, you know, in the place that I did and really grateful for Um everything I lived and saw and and and everything my parents did too, provide a platform for me to build on my own success in career, but certainly wasn't exposed to that kind of knowledge. So, if you were to chart the history of Flock Jake, starts very early in my life, both before graduating college and and after it, with this idea of there's so many sets of skills, um financial literacy included, that aren't taught in accredited institutions and the traditional schooling system. And how do we as a society create ways of connecting talented, motivated, humble and hungry professionals to not just the knowledge and the skills but, frankly, also the works of success to create upper mobility? Because in many ways that was...

...the story that I wished to live out for myself. And so as I charted my own path, with lots of twists and turns, I realized that a lot of what was giving me energy, and it took me about ten years to realize this, was the teaching component, was actually connecting others around me in my community to the skills and networks that empowered them to succeed, and so that led me to the bay area and to Tach, you know, my work and financial services industry. That exposed me to Um, not only enterprise software land in terms of companies, but also just like the levels of disruption that were possible in rethinking traditional forms of doing things, whether that was educating folks or training folks in the job. And Flock Jay sort of started as this end to end project. I never sought out to start a company. There's an end to end project where I was looking to frankly, join a company that thought about the world in a similar way that I was thinking about it, that there's tons of talent and opportunity out there, but the mismatch in systems for connecting them with skills to networks was just glaringly large. And starting with a career like sales where you didn't anchor to folks, Um having to have a huge technical background to get started or a huge set of means to get started, could you start the process of Um you know, removing all the different, let's call them friction points or blockers in someone's way to get access to knowledge and access to networks. And so in many ways the academy was and still is the first part of a larger project, of a larger journey. And when I couldn't find, you know, that that company that I wanted to work for, I almost reluctantly started one myself. I was like, I guess I care about this enough that I want to do it, you know, end to end like this, and start out with one small piece of the Pie. And can we prove that we can train folks from all kinds of backgrounds to launch careers in this industry? So, uh, that's sort of like my how I got here, the story, and in many ways it's the first or second inning of a much larger body of work that I hope to continue working on for a long time Um, particularly in what we're working on now, which is how do you connect any professional, particularly in sales, just given how much knowledge is necessary to do the job today, how do you connect them to the winning knowledge of your company and do it in a way that's productive and win, win for the REP, win, win for the manager, when win for the sales leader, win win for REV OPS, win win for sales enablement. One of the things I found, uh, you know, in sort of some of the in the in the course of this concept of taking people from different backgrounds and helping introduce them into, uh, you know, the tech ecosystem, specifically sales, uh you know, and maybe Um, you know. I don't love the the expression, but you know, like white collar work, is that there are cultural norms that are very, very sensitive, that are hard, that are sometimes difficult to talk about, but are important because they serve as almost subliminal or subconscious or non visual. Are, I guess, nonverbal cues about belongingness and about somebody's ability to sort of like work in that environment. Some of it may be how people naturally speak. It maybe how they dress. It might be like what's in the background of their zoom. Do you do you do any training around those ideas, which, again, are sensitive because so many people come from underrepresented or or really, Um, you know, nonprivileged, like, you know, uh, difficult backgrounds where they don't have exposure to going to like a liberal arts school in the northeast where they sort of pick up on how everybody behaves and then can...

...model that behavior. Do you approach any of that when you're thinking about, you know, upskilling, up leveling and creating upward mobility for people. Yeah, you know, I think that's one of the myriad of ways that traditional enablement and a company is broken. Um generally the pattern is you join a company, there's maybe a two week boot camp. It's largely product knowledge centric, maybe there's some industry training and maybe, if you're lucky, there's some skills training and then you're kind of given a salesforce and a laptop and a dialer and you're sent off into the world. And, you know, especially as we transition from BOOT CAMP TO UM software platform, to collect the institutional knowledge. One of the big pieces of feedback we got from reps in the field, and these were both tenured reps and reps who were starting out, you know, early in their career, was it's not really about those, you know, things I learned in the boot camp. It's really about the institutional or tribal knowledge within a company. It's what are these word it's mean like how do I understand what the person on the other side of the table is actually saying? You know, an anecdote and a story is actually there's, Um, a friend of mine who actually played professional baseball for ten years and has more lived experience than many of us can can sort of like claim in terms of things he's accomplished and and you know, all kinds of things he's seen and he's, you know, making a transition now into the software industry and is starting as an SDR. And you know, I checked into them, like how, how are things going? And you know, so much of it is just learning the lingo right, just learning, learning the vocabulary, learning the body language, learning the things that you might take for granted just being in this world. And that is the long tale of institutional knowledge, where if you structure it and surface it and get it to people in the words of actual reps, not in an overproduced you know training video that you click once and forget about, you know, the next day. That's the stuff that instills this virtualist cycle of self confidence and willingness to experiment and try and to fail and to get better. And so in both you know, incarnation one of Flock Jay, the boot camp, and specifically in you know, our platform now for winning knowledge and for continuous learning in companies, that piece of institutional knowledge is hugely important. And that institution knowledge includes things like just how you move in Tech Right, the cultural considerations. It's a weird and wonky world that we live in. Um and it's an underrated and underappreciated part of success in the job. I think a lot of US fall into the trap of measuring success based on activity levels and, you know, the most sort of like course and broad uh metrics for Um, keeping score. But that's just glorified scorekeeping. It's really not understanding the fundamentals of the someone actually understand how to do the job, have the resources to do it and feel safe, supported and confident, you know, to get the job done. So big focus area in our first incarnation. Even bigger focus in fact, one of the primary focus areas Um in our software platform for sales leaders, REB OPS and reps today and enablement. Folks, Um and it's the stuff we're missing. All of us are missing it. So do you? How do you? How do companies? How should companies think about and I imagine so what I'm picking up, but you tell me if I'm wrong, is that a lot of the new platform might be capturing short if I'm to just tell me if I'm wrong, capturing short videos from other reps that talk about why they want or like articulating a success story, and it's probably like to your point about, you know, gen Z or or the new generation. Maybe it's like leveraging short form video in a way that other tools haven't. Is that part of how we can also drive inclusivity by using...

...the different faces of the company too, onboard people in a way that makes them feel included? How? How do you think about helping companies not just uh, you know, higher diverse candidates, but make sure that they're on but that that they are incorporated into the the corporate organism in a healthy and productive way? Your spot on, Sam. That's a huge part of continuous learning and meeting folks where they are today. Is Giving folks a way to share their knowledge in a way that's far easier than they have today, which is usually submitting some kind of form, you know, in some kind of salesforce field or something like that, and really emphasizing that video and interactive piece, Um, but also really structuring that knowledge. So think about a deal story. Right you just set a meeting or you just closed the deal. There's a beautiful moment of time where you have something really valuable to share with your organization and right now that knowledge is trapped in reps, heads and it's not getting out. If you're lucky, it's maybe being shared freehand in a slack winds channel, and slack is what we like to say, is where great idea is going to die. It's gone right. I shot across the bow, Stewart Butterfield. I love you, Stewart. Slack Great Platform, but slack is fundamentally a communication tool. It's not built to be a collaboration tool, and I think that's why I'm really excited about using the existing infrastructure that companies do have to aggregate and structure a lot of this wisdom. Right. So if I'm sharing a deal story in a video and talking through how and why and one, I also might automatically have that story be tagged with the relevant information from salesforce, whether that's a C V or industry or, you know, stages, x, Y Z. It might also marry together different snippet from my recordings and my sales engagement software and paint a really clear, holistic picture so that if I'm another rep, instead of trying to hunt down this one rep who I saw some common in slack to understand how she did it and why she did it, I've got this Super Valuable Card of knowledge that captures both how the Rep did it in her own words, the context and the source material, the calls, the emails and things like that, and that's how we learn right. That's the thing that really allows reps to enable each other and to scale that kind of productivity and elite. You know, sales team, we're all striving for UM. We've just been approaching it in a totally backwards way and it's not the fault of any one stakeholder, whether it's enablement or sales lead, if we just haven't had the tools or the information to bring it all together Um. So you are understanding the platform Um in a spot on way, but there's this huge potential to marry my own words with all the context that already exists around what I'm sharing. If you can bring it all together, and if you do that well, you're not only enabling your team to do better, you're doing what you mentioned, which is you're also, and this is the magic, you're also at the same time building an incredibly inclusive and tight knit culture where you're not just on an island in your studio apartment, smiling and dialing and getting hung up on and feeling frustrated that you're showing up and being told to hit activity numbers and you're doing that and it's not working. Now you actually feel a sense of connection to others and you feel a sense of safety and you feel a sense of purpose coming to work, and those things are really, really important and they're reflected pretty quickly in the numbers of an organization. And especially in times like these, where we're all forced to do more with less, that kind of approach of really being intent all about capturing that winning knowledge, structuring...

...it in a way that is relatable understandable and also implement herbal Um and building a real cohesive unit, is what's going to separate winning teams from losing teams. I fundamentally believe that. I believe that my my last sort of formal question for you, H as we're nearing the end of our time together. Just uh, the the role of the SDR. It is a I don't know, I find it controversial. I don't know if other people do. Uh, buyers, you know, it is now dogma that you need a person to create a meeting and prospect and then another person takes the meeting and hopefully turns it into money. And and a customer relationship. But but it's it can be a difficult and, uh, you know, frustrating experience for buyers because they are aware of what's happening and they're where that they're going to be passed around, and also there are so many different SDRs that are using so much crappy messaging that it really sort of like stains the specific role a little bit. And yet it is also a good entry point into the sales ecosystem to teach people how to prospect, to teach people about how to do this job. What's your point of view on the future of the world? Do you do you think it's here to stay? Do you think that there are new, interesting organizational shifts that might create new roles? How do you? How do you think about it? I think all of us can empathize from a buyer perspective, just the degree of volume of content in our inboxes and the degree of phone calls we receive and from an empathy perspective when that's your job as an str right it's the job that we have supported, you know, as a boot camp, you know for a while. Um, it's really hard and so the way I think about it is as we have overcrowding of tools, of emails, of messaging. Can you do thirty dollars instead of twenty dials? Can you send x amount of emails versus why amount of emails? The future of the S CR job really comes down to what makes us the most human and what sort of differentiates an str from someone who's actually doing the sale. and to me, what are both of those things is the ability to think like, frankly, a content marketer and a community organizer, where I've seen some of the best SDRs think about their job much more broadly in terms of, Um, understanding their industry, actually having conversations with people where the conversations are happening and not just, you know, putting out the same hokey content that's coming out, but trying to go one level deeper and a little bit more thoughtful in terms of what they're writing. And so I think the evolution of the role is going to take some twists and turns, but I do see the fundamental value of an str in really really focusing on content over time. It's the thing that's really hard to uh standardized and template tize beyond the like, you know, sales engagement here, templates, personalize a couple of things and hits end Um. I think we all are going to get much better and technology is going to help us in Um, being much better content marketers. So we'll see how it evolves. I do think there is a pretty credible case for the specialization element. I have profound empathy for the full cycle sales rep who has to both prospect and manage a pipeline and manage follow up and sort of like manage the terms just a lot in a day. Um. What I'd like to see is more seamless teamworking coordination between the SDR and the a e. and part of what you know a platform like flock Ja does and collecting the winning knowledge is it connects SDRs to a es a lot more intentionally instead of adversarially, Um, where SDRs can look ahead and can actually start learning for the next job today and allows them to be better at that job they're doing today and be a lot...

...more thoughtful versus just Um, uh, you know, being a coin operated, uh smile and dial or um email, you know, sender. So that's my hope, Um, that we take a lot of the learnings we're seeing in B two C around creators and community and social and bring that into enterprise and SDR is, especially given demographic and just sort of Um experience level and creativity level, seemed to be most poised to do that. I love it. Sean, we're almost at the end of our time together. The last last thing we like to do is pay it forward a little bit and think about either people could be investors, could be old bosses, could be, you know, Bill Gates, I don't know, uh, you know, could be famous people or books or concepts that have had a huge impact on you, things that you know, if we wanted to do more research or diligence, we could look up on our own and enrich ourselves. When I frame it like that, who are some of the people, ideas or books that have had the biggest impact on you that you think we should know about? Yeah, I'll do this. I'll do a person and I'll do a book. Um, the person more most immediately Um, outside of my wife, because we have a newborn and she is my continued source of inspiration as we bring a new person into this crazy world we live in. Um is actually, you know, one of my mentors and someone on our board. Um, DP rightful. He's the president of field operations for qual tricks. He was an s VP of sales at salesforce for, you know, many years before that and had a pretty storied career Microsoft IBM. But the thing about him, which you know he doesn't readily share, is that he came up from a background that we spent a lot of time talking about in this episode, which is being entirely outside the industry and trying to find a way in and really having to chart that path for himself. And I think it's just really inspiring to have, uh, those role models for success as anyone is starting or is mid level in their career, because you can't be what you can't see. And DP UNIQUELY BRINGS A perspective to his sales organization, his global organization at qual tricks, that I think a lot of sales leaders miss, which is this real emphasis on connecting his reps with winning knowledge and understanding that in many cases the thing that separates a rep in a performance improvement plan from coming back versus not is their ability to access networks and knowledge. Um, so a huge inspiration for me personally. And then on the book side, it's a field of sales um but there's a book called bewilderment and it's all about a father and his son and nature and coming up in this world and having an appreciation for slowing down. So highly recommend that novel to anyone who's looking for a good read. Awesome. Well, I'm looking at it right now on Amazon, by Richard Powers. I Look Sean, it's been great having you on the show. If folks want to reach out to you, maybe they want to buy your product or just, you know, engage you in some way. Are you open to it and, if so, what's your preferred method for outreach from strangers? Pretty easy, flock JA DOT COM. Um, and send us an email at hello at flock Jay dot com, or does email me directly, Sean S H A a n at flock Ja dot com. As I mentioned, I'm always flock Jay's first B Dr, so would be happy to help in any way I can. Awesome, Sean. Thanks so much for being our guest on the show and we'll talk to you on Friday for Friday fundamentals. Thanks to one. Hey, everybody. Sam Jacobs, SAM's corner, my little corner of the world, really enjoyed that conversation with Sean. I find what he's doing really inspiring. I found the way that he organizes his thoughts and sort of the way he articulates his ideas. I talked, as I mentioned in the interview, I talked to a lot of founders who are trying to build products from effectively services solutions and they're struggling. But my sense is that Sean thinks about things in the right structured way, that he's probably a pretty good product leader...

...and certainly when I took a look at flock Ja dot com, the website looks looks pretty cool and I just love that they started as this one thing, which is an academy to train people from, you know, non non traditional backgrounds. Maybe they played sports, maybe they were in retail, maybe they didn't graduate from college, and help them enter the tech ecosystem. And now it's really a much bigger idea. It's an an enablement solution, leveraging short form video to help mirror the best practices and behaviors of your reps and then bring together all the other context that you might need into one place and in that way it's sort of almost a new kind of solution. Maybe it has similarities to you know platforms we've all heard of, like duly or Speckett or or seismic something like that, but but even a new, different kind of category. So it's really bit. You know, I'm just I'm just impressed by the evolution and I think, you know, one of the things that Sean talks about is doing more with less. How do you do more with less? And I really do think that solutions. You know, now is probably at the time. Now is probably the time. If you're out there and your sales leader, that's probably a good time to think about slowing or pausing hiring, although I'm recording this in July and the economic data as of today actually looks like we might not be in a recession or head into a recession. It looks a bit more positive. But if you're thinking about where to save money, I don't think it's under investing in training and enablement. I think it's uh, I think it's pausing the head count right, making the most expensive resource that that you can purchase in a sense, or acquire or invest in as a person. Right, people have salaries, they have benefits, they have software solutions that are required, they have the manager's time that's required. Really hiring one more person is is an incredibly expensive endeavor and it's far more productive, literally to think about how do you get the most from the existing team, and I think solutions like flock J do that. Frankly. Yes, I'm talking my book, but I think you should think about platforms like pavilion, which all provide, you know, through pavilion for teams, corporate training solutions so that you can you can rest comfortably knowing that you are investing in a really easy way into the upskilling, up leveling and upward mobility of your existing team through programs that are led by trained experts, that are led by industry practitioners, that are led by people that have done the job and then and articulated through a learning framework Um that ensures that adults can actually absorb and apply the information, and I think flock j does that as well. I think the bottom line is now is probably the time to think about how do I proportionally increase the existing investment in my existing team, as opposed to just continuing to grow the team from a headcount perspective. But that's my perspective. I feel free to disagree. You can disagree with me by emailing me, Sama John Pavilion Dot com, or you can follow me on Linkedin, Um and we of course, we want to thank our sponsors, which we will do so in a second. If you haven't given us five stars on the itunes store, please do that. If you haven't joined the sales hacker community, please give that a shot as well. We'll hear from our sponsors and then I'll talk to everybody next time. Thanks for listening. This episode of the Sales Hacker podcast had three amazing sponsors. The first is outreach. Outreach the first and only engagement and intelligence platform built by revenue innovators for revenue innovators. Go to click dot outreach dot IO. Forward Slash Thirty NPC were also brought to you by pavilion, the key to getting more out of your career in role in sales school, Sales Development School, marketing school and our upcoming recession education pack, including selling through an economic downturn, marketing through an economic downturn and leadership through an economic downturn. LEARN MORE AT JOINT PAVILION DOT COM and, of course, verison. High Performing Revenue Organizations have a game plan for growth. Learn how verisent can help you create a predictable growth engine at verissn dot com. FORWARD SLASH SALES HACK.

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