The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode 204 · 5 months ago

204. How to Implement Effective Account-Based Marketing Strategies

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, we've got Auseh Britt. Auseh is a seasoned B2B marketer with 20 years of marketing experience across a wide range of industries and companies spanning global hospitality to startups and currently serves as the VP of Growth Marketing at Terminus. Join us for a great conversation about what account-based marketing is and what it means when it’s done well.

What You’ll Learn

  1. The keys to being a successful growth marketer
  2. How a well-defined ICP makes account-based marketing easier
  3. How MQLs are being replaced by qualified pipelines
  4. Why sales and marketing alignment leads to better pipeline generation  

Show Agenda and Timestamps

  1. About Auseh Britt [4:15]
  2. Keys to being a successful growth marketer [11:35]
  3. Defining account-based marketing [13:25]
  4. Comparing ABM and legacy B2B marketing campaigns [17:23]
  5. Marketing and sales alignment [22:28]
  6. Paying it forward [26:01]
  7. Sam’s Corner [30:42]

One, two, one, three. Everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. You're listening to the sales hacker podcast. We've got a great show for you. Today. We've got ausa bridge. She is the VP of growth marketing at terminus. She's going to talk to us all about account base marketing. You've been wondering what account base marketing is, what it sounds like, what it means when you do it well, and that's what this conversation is all about. Before that, we want to hear from our sponsors. This episode of the Sales Hacker podcast is brought to you by outreach. outreaches the first and only engagement and intelligence platform built by revenue innovators for revenue innovators. Outreach allows you to commit to accurate sales forecasting, replace manual process with real time guidance and unlock actionable customer intelligence that guides you and your team to a more often, traditional tools don't work in a hybrid sales world. Find out why outreaches the right solution. Net Click dot outreach, dot io forward slash thirty MPC. That is click dot outreach, dot io forward slash thirty MPC. This episode of the Sales Hacker podcast is sponsored by pavilion. Pavilion is the key to getting more out of your career. Our private membership connects you with a network of thousands of light minded peers and resources where you can tap into dozens of classes and training through Pavilion University. Make sure you take advantage of the pavilion for teams corporate membership and enroll your entire go to market team in one of our industry leading schools and courses, including marketing school, Sales School, Sales Development School and Revenue Operation School. Unlock your professional potential and your team's professional potential with a pavilion membership. Gets started today at Joint PAVILIONCOM. Once again, that's joint PAVILIONCOM. This episode of the salesacker podcast is brought to you by fresh works. Have you ever been in a digital sales room? Well, if you haven't, your sales team should be in one soon. Gartner and its latest report predicts that by two thousand and twenty five fifty percent fall enterprise be tob sales technology. Implementations will include digital sales rooms. Create an immersive digital sales environment with fresh sales. With fresh sales, you can develop digital customer journey maps into great advanced digital commerce capabilities and to be tob...

...sales create unified experiences across touch points and enabled visibility for your sales and marketing teams. See how thousands of businesses use fresh sales to shorten sales cycle and improve salespeed. Versions faster. Get a free trial of fresh sales at FRESHWORKSCOM fresh sales. Get a free trial again of fresh sales at fresh WORKSCOM. Forward Slash fresh sales. Everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the SALESACER podcast. Today on the show we've got Ausse Britt Assay's a season be tob marketer with twenty years of marketing experience across a wide range of industries and company spending, global hospitality to startups. She's had leadership rolls at Bloomberg, Lodgy analytics and now terminus. Originally from Florida Florida, but currently resides in the Washington DC area. She comes to us as the VP of growth marketing for terminus. I'll say welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. We're delighted to have you. So we like to start every show with a little bit of a baseball card. I mentioned your name. I mentioned your title Vp of growth marketing for terminus, but we always want to give you an opportunity to tell us what does terminus do and your in your opinion, from your perspective? Sure, so, terminus is a multi channel engagement platform to do account base marketing. So we help be to beam marketers execute their account based marketing program so they can create, accelerate and close more pipeline. Amazing. And how long? How big is the company? I mean, I've I'm familiar with terminus, but other people out there might not. So give us a sensor of where you are and your growth journey the company. That is yeah, sure, so we have about two hundred and thirty employees at terminus. We are headquartered in Atlanta, Georgia, and we have a secondary office in Indianapolis. And Yeah, so we have been around, you know, for about seven, eight years now. We really kind of enter the market with the sort the surgeons of account based marketing and it's...

...popularity and we just continue, you know, to grow, always adding to our platform, both organically and organically and, you know, helping our go to market teams really create more pipeline. That's that's fantastic. So how do your titles vp of growth marketing, walk through your mandate? I'm curious because you know, it's not just marketing. How how should one think about the differentiation between growth marketing and maybe do you have colleagues that are VPS in other parts of keting? Tell us about, like what your specific responsibilities are? Yeah, sure, so I have a colleague that leads more of the corporate marketing function or marketing strategy, which is the creative and content and life cycle marketing areas, where on my side of the house is all about growth, and that's both from new customer acquisition to, I'm sorry, New Yeah, new customer acquisition and also customer expansion. So I kind of I re lead the demand Jin function. That includes like marketing operations as well as field marketing. And then we have an account based marketing team, as you would imagine being a MARTEC company, that is focused on ABM. We have a team of three folks that are really dedicated to doing ABM, and the way we're organized is we have someone focus on new logo acquisition, who does more of the programmatic type of ABM, the one too many want to few type of programs, and then we have another person who's really focus on strategic accounts and partnering very closely with our strategic as and doing more of those bespoke type of campaigns on a one to one basis, and then we have another person who's focused on customer expansion. So customer expansion is an important part of our business and I find with a lot of companies these days, you know, they're they are really starting to focus even more on the customer, which I think...

...is important, and we felt a need to really have somebody working with our account management team and, you know, finding what that white space is in terms of expansion and cross cells and up cells. So she partners with them to create very specific campaigns to our customer base. So I want to talk about your background and then I want to dive into a good discussion about ABM, because it's obviously a big buzzword these days. It's a or buzz acronym, but probably misunderstood, perhaps from from your perspective as an expert practitioner. But how did you you know, I read your bio at the beginning, but how did you get into this role? Tell us a little bit about how how you became sort of like a demand jen senior executive, you know, within the world, and a little bit about your your journey into the world of marketing, because, just like sales, a lot of people don't start off with the direct intention of becoming a marketing executive, but there's things about the function that that appeal to people in that sort of excites them and get them passionate. How did you find your way into this role? Yeah, I mean your spot on. I have a very non traditional background, I think, when it comes to marketing. So when I went to college, my Undergrad degree is actually in civil engineering. So I came out of school and I went to go work for the Florida Department of Transportation and I work for them for five years, got my professional engineering license and at the time I was like, I don't think I want to do this for the rest of my career. There are a lot of aspects of it I enjoy, but I was getting more involved on the business aspect of project management and I really liked it versus being more that traditional type of, you know, engineering discipline. And so I looked ahead and I was like, Oh what, what do I want to do for the rest of my life, and what's going to come to give me the most options, and so I decided to go to business school and I went to a program I went to Carndie...

Mellon in Pittsburgh, grand school. Yeah, and they have a quantity they're kind of known for their quantitative approach to management. If anybody, anybody out there who has, you know, gotten the business school or is evaluated them, the programs very similar to like an MIT slow program and at Niversity Virginia darten program like very quant heavy and that just kind of was a great fit for me personally coming back from, you know, my undergrad degree. So I went to school there and then coming out, one of my specializations was in marketing and I ended up taking a role at intercontinental hotels group in Atlanta Doing Partnership Marketing and strategic alliances under the Loyalty Marketing Umbrella, and that was a little bit of business development in a sense, because you're kind of identifying and and reaching out to these potential partnerships, forging those relationships and then doing all of the Co Marketing and partnership marketing and the really enjoyed that and I ended up leaving in our continental more so because my husband got a job opportunity out on the west coast, which kind of led me to a couple other positions. I won't go into too much detail because the list is long, but I continued to do some more partnership marketing. I learned a lot on the direct marketing and direct response side of the House with one of the companies I work for. And then I work for a company called Businesscom, which kind of was my first foray into the start of world and working for, you know, an internetcom company that was growing very quickly and I was a leading the marketing team there and from there relocated to the East Coast again, another job opportunity from my husband kind of kind of push that move where I join Bloomberg and Bloomberg Industry Group, and that was a great experience as well,...

...and I think with that not only the functional experience. I was the director of online marketing there at a rather large organization, but the culture and that culture at Bloomberg, of anybody is familiar with it, is it's a it's pretty big on meritocracy and being able to like move fast but move thoughtfully, you know, being willing to try new things and be creative, but still have those grails on, you know, not doing anything too risky, but there was an appetite to kind of like you have the initiative and you have the idea, like go for it. So that was a really great learning experience for me. And then from there I did stants at this this digital publication media company called quest x. Then lend me to lodgy analytics and at Logi was my actually first foray into account base marketing. So lodgings and embedded. It is an embedded business intelligence platform targeting product managers and software developers, mainly at other SASS companies, because it is an embedded solution, and we saw the value of doing an ABM program and really kind of dove deep into it for new customer acquisition, and that kind of led me to determine us, because we ended up bringing terminus on to help us execute on those programs. So I was a customer of terminus before I decided to join the company, which I did about almost two years ago. About a year and a half ago I ended up joining terminus to lead the the growth marketing team. What do you think are the keys to being a successful growth marketer? In your opinion, if somebody's listening and they say that sounds like an interesting path, I want to pursue it. What do you think the key skills that you either need to develop or have innately in order to be really effective in the role? Yeah, I mean I think one of the things I really love about it is you you have a mix of you needing metrics driven and in a little goal but you also have the opportunity to be very creative...

...because at the end of the day, in my opinion, it's all about generating qualified opportunities and pipeline. It's not about creating a generating leads so much as an Mq well's. It's you making sure that those are turning into pipeline, because I think that needs to be the focus for anybody who's doing to Managin or growth marketing, and that really helps kind of align you to the sales team. But I think you know in growth marketing you just need to have that mindset that you are kind of responsible for driving that pipeline and, like I said, having that kind of metrics driven approach of how you're going to get there, because you also end up being I find that function within the department as also the largest spender, so you have the biggest budget, you have the most opportunities like to, I think, to be creative and, like I said, and try new things, but along with that becomes the responsibility of meeting those numbers. So you have to be comfortable with that, because I've also met some folks who are in other marketing functions where like this is too much pressure for you know, because you do you have quarterly numbers that you have to strive towards and you have to meet. So you need to be, you know, driven by that and you need to be comfortable, I think, having that level of responsibility. Yeah, I that makes a lot of sense. Let's talk a little bit about ABM. So you know, it's a word, account based marketing, or a phrase, I suppose, a discipline that's been around for a little while now, but I think it's somewhat controversial. Some people say ABM is just marketing, it's just you know, and then the answer might be well, it's marketing focused on very specific accounts, and then the retort to that might be, well, that just means it's more expensive marketing than that regular marketing. What do you think? How do you define it for yourself and what are the keys to driving successfully BM campaigns? Yeah, I mean I think it's it's evolving...

...and I think account based marketing is becoming Beta be marketing. Like it's just smart marketing and it's the way I think the industry or the practitioners or people on the marketing and saleside are moving towards, because I actually find it's a more cost efficient go to market strip, you know, approach then a more expensive one, and that's because you're funneling your resources, both your head count and your program spend, to those accounts that are a good fit for your organization, for your product and service, and it's also the ones that are showing some type of buyer intent signals, so they are in the market. So I think it's it's just it's actually a smarter approach than the traditional demand Jen that you're doing, where you're casting a wider net and there tends to be, I think, a little bit more waste when it comes to that. So if you can really kind of hone in on your ideal customer profile, you have to understand that first. I think for it to work, it's not about I mean, I work for more tech company it's not about the technology. Like to get started, you really have to think about what the strategy is and what you're trying to achieve and understand who is your ideal customer profile. I mean, you talk to a lot of companies and they're like, oh, we have such a huge Tan, like we want to go after everybody. I mean, using terminus as an example, any be to be marketer can use our platform. I mean we it appeals to everybody, but we don't go after like every betb marketer. There's certain things that we know about our customer base and our and our ICP that we really try to hone in on. Okay, well, maybe everyone can use it, but who's going to, you know, kind of benefit from it the most, of getting the most value from the product? And it's really kind of...

...understanding that of who those people are. One or the personas but the others are more of that kind of that information, that psychographic, demographic, type of technographic information of the companies that are really the best fit for your product or service and coming up, you know, with that ICP. And then once you do that, then you have to fit. So you know which accounts are the best fit, but they may not all be a market at the time, so they may not be looking for your product or service. They may have a competitor already in place. So then the next step is then finding out, well, which ones are showing those intense signals that are showing that they're interested in learning more or they're already down the path of evaluating, you know, a shortlist of venders, and then that you can get even more focused on who you should be going after at that specific time. So that way you can kind of rally your SDR team, your as around. Okay, these are the folks that you need to be talking to right now. So in that respect, I mean I think ABM is just it's just smarter, you know, marketing and it's a better use of your your program dollars in the long run, because you know they're feeding in surrounding those accounts where you're going to have the most success of converting. That makes that makes a lot of sense. So are there different let's say we've done all of these things right. We've really narrowed down our ICP, we know that they're in market, we've aligned, you know, the SDR team in the sales team to go after these folks. Are there different tactics? You know, is it is it? Is it a greater emphasis on in person and dinners? Is it a greater emphasis on retargeting? Are there? Are there elements of an ABM campaign that are different than than, you know, a more traditional or a legacy be to be marketing campaign? Yeah, I definitely think multi channel is the approach to take because I think as buyers, were all buyers in some respect. You know, we take in information differently and...

...from different sources. Some people are heavier users of social media than the other folks. Some people tend to go more, like, to the conferences and and trade shows more than others. So having like that surround sound multi channel approach, I think, is the best way to do it, and that's, like you said, it's a mix of, I think, online and offline. Online, you know, target it display ads, having every kind of outbound email is another touch point where you can have very specific messaging surrounding those accounts. Website personalization, so when they come to your site you have very specific, you know, offers and messaging that's targeted to that very specific account. But then there's also things you can layer in like direct mail as part of it as part of your campaigns. That has that kind of high touch. It can be personalized as well. People like to get that that look, that tactile type of experience, and who doesn't love receiving gifts in the mail, you know, so having that as an aspect of it. And then events too. I think you know, we were all, you know, events coming disappeared overnight with covid. Now we're coming up on, you know, the two year anniversary of covid and or just happened, I guess. And when everything shut down. I think people are slowly getting more comfortable and coming back out. I was just at the BE TO BE Marketing Exchange Conference in Scottsdale a couple weeks ago and I was pleasantly surprised of how many people were in attendance at that event because we've done some other smaller regional events last fall and attendance was still, you know, like thirty five percent of what they normally saw. But in this past when I attended, it seemed like it was almost back up to what they normally see. So I...

...think people are becoming more comfortable with in person events and they all have a place. I think people you know, it's hard to substitute in person events and they can be of like you said, of all types. They can be a trade show conference, but also field events that are more intimate, that are invite only, lunch and learns, ones that, you know, included some type of experience as part of it. Road shows, you know, that's another thing that that tend that we've done in the past that's been effective, of doing a multi city road show that you work with partners that may be in the same space that you're in and you do some type of educational workshops for like a half a day. So I think we're going to start seeing more and more of those this year as people are more comfortable, you know, getting out and doing in person events. But I think that's all part of it. That's all about, like the ABM concept up, it's to get it's a hyper focusing on those best that accounts that are showing intent and surrounding them with multiple tactics, because I think we've all learned and know how many touches it takes to make an impression. It's a lot and it's a lot and you don't want to get them all through email. You know, some people just don't respond to that. So you need to be creative and how you reach them. I think the other area to that is becoming more popular is the formation of, you know, communities and professional groups like pavilion, you know, likes sales assembly. There's other ones that are out there that people are gravitating towards because they put so much faith in, you know, peer to peer type of recommendations and and just bouncing ideas off of it when you want to talk to people. Other marketing leaders are in your role, you know, we go out to each other and say, Hey, I'm evaluating so and so or I'm looking for, you know,...

...a vendor to help me with this. What is your experience been? So I think that's another aspect of it too, is making sure why you recognize that and to how you kind of get involved in those types of communities where they're the watering holes of where your you know, your target personas are. You're absolutely right, of course, some I'm obviously supporter of Pavilion. Yeah, let me ask you one one more question, because you know what you're saying makes tremendous sense, of course, and I can imagine. Well, I'm somebody that runs a company, thinking about it and thinking if we went fully B M, it really would require a pretty like a reorganization of how we think about going to market, and one of the keys would be making sure that sales and marketing are tightly aligned. What are those the strategies or the tactics? How do you ensure that sales and marketing are aligned? Is it a series of meetings as it shared goals? Is it making sure that, you know, marketings not comped on M q's as you said, but on qualified pipeline? How do you think about the best ways to drive alignment? Yeah, that alignment is key because even when you're doing an account based marketing strategy, if it's just marketing that is putting out all these ads and holding these events and stuff like that, if sales is not working in lock step in reaching out to those accounts and engaging them at the same time, it's just you're not going to be as successful as you can be, especially we've seen it when we've done some of the more intimate type of events, both virtual and person is. We provide all of like the logistics and the messaging and some of the promotional materials, but it means a lot more being invited by the salesperson, especially, like if you're an in pipeline opportunity of somebody of a relationship with that you've been working with for the past, you know, month or two is inviting you to something then getting just, you...

...know, an etml email from the marketing department inviting you. So I think that needs to that's critical is having that tight alignment and that does come, like you said, from Shaer Goals Number One, and that's why I think marketing really needs to kind of feel like they're taking, you know, partial responsibility of that pipeline building. Like I said, it's not just about like that the mql side of the house. It's more about like, okay, that's great, but if you're not helping sales, you know, working together and generating that pipeline, then it's just not you know, it's not going to help grow the business, which is what we're all kind of here for. So I think the shared goals is absolutely, you know, top priority, that everyone understands that they're what we're trying to do and we're doing it together, and then having that regular cadence of meetings communication, making sure the awareness is there of everything that's that's happening from the marketing air cover side and the promotion side, that sells is just well informed of all the different touch points and engagement metrics to so they need to also see that data of how their accounts are engaging with the marketing materials, the content, the Webinars, the website, all that, so they can just be better equipped to be like, okay, so they're visiting this particular you know Ebook, they've read this Ebook, they went to this Webinar. These are all indications that they're interested in this particular product or feature. So we need to make sure that we're giving, like sales, also that visibility so they can craft their messaging, their follow ups. They're just more they're just better informed of what that particular you know buyers looking for. So I think all that is important, but really for ABM again, alignment is just it's very important between sales and...

...marketing. Absolutely, I'll say we're almost at the end of our time together and one of the things that we like to do is pay it forward a little bit and figure out are there ideas? Are there people that have had a been big influence on you? Are there books you've read that you that have really informed who you are as a marketer or as a professional. When you think about, you know, key influences that you think we should know about? Who comes to mind or what comes to mind? Well, that's a good question. I feel like you know, across my career I've had different managers who have kind of contributed like to my development. I think with every role I take I'm always learning something a little bit new, either being in the industry or the persona or just the approach. So for me it's kind of a blend of people over my career of anybody specifically stands out. But when I think of also, when you said books and materials and stuff that I read, one of the things that the pandemic has changed in my behavior is I started listening to podcasts, where before I just I really I didn't as much, but now, because I think everybody needs a little bit of that break, or at the end of the day, I always take like a walk around my neighborhood just to kind of help separate, you know that work from home and then your personal life, and so I've started listening a lot to how I built this by Guy Ross. I don't know if you listen to his program yeah, no, I've, of course. I mean it's one of the most famous ones out there. I've heard it a few times. He's got great guests on there. Yeah, he really does, and I think what I like about that and what I always kind of learned from from those is the guests that he has. Obviously there's they've been successful, but they've all struck they it was not easy like for any of them, and that's what makes, I think, the story so interesting is they come from that. Some of them come from non traditional backgrounds or they've, you know, they have evolved the business from where they started to where they ended up, but they've always run into some kind of challenges and in...

...obstacles like along the way, and what I've really enjoyed about that is just really kind of understanding how people deal, you know, with those types of situations and not really giving up and persevering and understanding that you need to kind of pivot and be flexible in your approach because you don't know what it's going you know what it's going to be, and I think the other thing I've learned and I've done, I've read, if you read any of the Malcolm gladwell stuff. I can remember what was out Myers or one of US books where you talk about it's about talent, but there's always some luck that's in there too, of being at the right place in the right time aspect of it too, and I hear that a lot too, and in the how I built this kind of podcast at it, all these entrepreneurs are like, oh, yes, I put a lot of blood, sweat and tears, but there's also this aspect of luck how to play a part in it too, and just how they kind of you know, continue to grow their companies. Yeah, absolutely, I think you're right, and also I think that luck is in some ways a state of mind, because some people say they're lucky and some people say they're unlucky, and both people are right. It's just sort of how you view your life and luck, and saying that you have luck is probably, I don't know, feels like a healthier way to think about it, because it embraces humility and shows that you know there's other forces at work besides just our own individual efforts that contribute to our success. I say, if folks want to reach out to you, they've heard heard you on the show. Maybe they have some questions about ABM. Maybe they want to buy terminus, enter pipeline and enter the market. What's the best way to reach out to you? Yeah, probably on my linkedin profile. If anybody wants to reach out to me, happy to connect. Happening to chat about all things marketing, ABM specifically if that's your area of interest, but I think that's probably the best way. Sounds good. Well, wonderful. Thanks so much for being our guest on the show and we'll talk to on Friday for Friday fundamentals. Okay, great, thanks so much. Thanks again for listening to this sales hacker podcast. Once again, thanks to our...

...sponsors. Outreach, the first and only engagement intelligence platform built by revenue innovators for revenue innovators. GO TO CLICK DOT OUTREACH DOT AO forwards thirty MPC to learn more. Also, pavilion and roll, your sales team, your marketing team and your entire go to market organization in Sales School, Sales Development School, marketing school and many, many more. Learn more at joint PAVILIONCOM. And finally, fresh works and their new product, fresh sales. With fresh sales you can develop digital customer journey maps in a great advanced digital commerce capabilities and create unified experiences across all of your digital touch points. Get a free trial of fresh sales at fresh workscom forward slash fresh sales. Hey everybody at Sam Jacobs Sam's corner. Love that conversation with us, a Britt. I think a couple things emerge for me. One of them is that, you know, she talked about how when she went to Carnegie Mellon for Grad School, heavy emphasis on quant heavy emphasis on numbers, and I think to be a great demand generation growth marketer you need to be analytical, you need to be comfortable looking at numbers, evaluating numbers and really tying all of your efforts back to Kpis that you measure, and she does that and she's clearly an expert at it, and so and then, beyond that, I think was really interesting to sort of the temperament right she mentioned you get a big budget, you got to be willing to play that budget and you got to be willing to stand by your investments. And one of the comparisons I've heard in the past is sort of like a hedge fund manager. That's sort of what you are. You're given a pot of money and it is your job to aggressively invest that pot of money and understand you need to invest it so that it comes back in the form of, you know, revenue and close pipeline. So I thought that was really, really interesting. And then, of course, you know account paste marketing. I think she had a great point. I said, you know, sometimes it feels like account past marketing is just more expensive marketing, and she said it is actually cheaper. It's cheaper when you really tightly define your ICP, your ideal customer profile. Importantly, think term this does. This says to other platforms like six sense. You need to know when people are in market right. So it's not just about knowing who your people are, as knowing that they're looking for your solution, and then it's designing programs for people that you know are the right people for...

...you and that are in market looking for your solution. And if you can do those two things, your chances of building really interesting multichannel marketing campaigns are much greater at being effective and yielding results. Finally, you know it's been the talk of the town. I don't know what town, maybe a virtual town, but the point is a lot of people are talking. People are saying the death of the MQL, marketing qualified lead. It used to be marketing generated lead, sales turn those leads into money and if marketing hit their MQ number, than that was all they needed to do. And it's no longer the case. It's clearly the case that the whole and this is why we've you know, we've heard this revenue operations. You know, chief Revenue Officer. There's this concept that like sales and marketing collectively to generate revenue. In fact, you can make this strong argument that the whole company generates revenue. The product, then marketing, then sales. But the point is that marketing and sales need to be aligned in order to drive effective account Pas marketing strategies, and that alignment is going to come from metrics that are really closely, as close as possible, to money. So qualified pipeline as opposed to marketing qualified leads. It's not marketing job to deliver email addresses. It's marketings job to deliver active interested companies that want to buy your thing, and then it does the sales team's job to turn that activation and that interest into revenue. And it's a when it works well. It's a beautiful thing and I clearly USA is doing a great job over a terminus. So really like that conversation. If you want to reach out to me, you Ken Sam at Joined Pavilion. We want you to give us five stars on the ITUNES store if you haven't yet, join the sales hacker community if you haven't done that, and otherwise we'll talk to you next time. Thanks very much.

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