The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 5 months ago

155. How to Improve Your Sales Process w/ Pouyan Salehi

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Overview:

This week on the show, we welcomed serial entrepreneur Pouyan Salehi, the co-founder and CEO of Scratchpad, the pioneer of the revenue team workspace. Prior to Scratchpad, Pouyan was the co-founder and CEO of PersistIQ, the complete outbound platform engineered for sales from the ground up. Pouyan also co-founded Lera Labs and has dedicated the last decade to improving the sales process for B2B enterprise sales reps everywhere.

What You’ll Learn

  1. Lessons learned from owning a Domino's franchise
  2. What problem are you solving?
  3. When you're not that hotshot kid anymore
  4. Why go-to-market excellence trumps product excellence
  5. Can you pass the Mom Test?

Show Agenda and Timestamps

  1. Show Introduction [00:49]
  2. Lessons learned from owning a Domino's franchise [6:33]
  3. What problem are you solving? [13:57]
  4. When you're not that hotshot kid anymore [16:16]
  5. Why go-to-market excellence trumps product excellence [24:57]
  6. Can you pass the Mom Test? [30:54]
  7. Sam’s Corner [32:50] 

One two one t three oeverybody at SamJacobs: Welcome to the Sales Hacker podcast we're super excited to have onthe show puion Salihi. He is the CEO Cofounder of a really interesting newcompany called scratch pad all about making life simpler and easier for repsall over the world. To take notes and to just get work done, sounds like areally cool company. So it's a great conversation he's also a serialentrepreneur. He started a number of different companies and he's learned alot of valuable lessens and develope. This course, based on you know who hesells to, but also how he thinks about building businesses, a lot ofappreciation and affinity for all of us in sales. So really good conversationnow before we get there. We want to thank our sponsor. Our reach is oursponsor they've been a longtime sponsored this podcast and they justlaunched a new way to learn our reach on out reaches the place to learn howour richdoes out reach won. Have the team follows up with every lead andrecord time after virtual events and turns those leads into customers? Youcan also see how aurae runs account base plays how outeach manages theirteam and so much more using their own sales engagement platform. Everythingbacked up by data from howreach processes when you're done you'll beable to do as well as they do head to average Autao for slash on outreach tosee what they've got going on and now before. Jumping in I'd be remissed notto tell you about unleash two thousand and twenty one, its back. Maybe on Mayeleven throgh thirteen were focusing on how to win all together in the newsales era. You'L learn new go to market strategies, get deeper, funnel insightsand action will takeaways for your entire ord from revenue leaders atHygro, starnups and fortune. Five hundred companies and are very specialguests are another than none other than Guyraz podcaster and author of how Ibuilt this and carry laurence. The first female fighter pilot in the USNavy come save your seat for this high energy online event at unleish DonOutreach Don Ayo. Now, let's listen to my conversation with PUON SALIHY, everybody, its Sam Jacob's, welcome tothe saleshacker podcast. Today, we've...

...got a great show for you: We've gotPuyon Sala, hey on the show and he's the Co founder and CEO Scratch Pad thepioneer of the revenue team work. Space PRIDEO scratch by Puyon was a cofounderat Z of PERSISIQ, the complete outbound platform engineered from the ground upfor sales, he's a successful serial entrepreneur, puon also cofounded, Liralabs and has dedicated the last decade to improving the sales process forbtebret enterprise sales, reps everywhere and teams. Follow me twitterat Twittercom, Forardh pieceolet Salihi tell her more about scratch pad visitscratch. Padcom put you on welcome to the show, thanks for having me we'reexcited to have you, so we like to start with your baseball card, whichyou know really is a way for you to tell us what scratchpad does. In yourwords, we know your name. We know you're the CEOAND cofounder, but whatis scratchbad the way were describing scratsh path. Today is the work spacefor for sales, for for sales person or for a revenue team and, if wee, reallyUnpacke, what that means is we've through our experience, we've seen,every account executive creates what we call their own workspace. Most folkshave sales for they'll have an email tool. El have a phone tool, but reallywhere they do. Their work is out of ever knowtor. Macknotes to take notespipeline is usually managed in Google sheets er excel tasks are all over theplace from to do list to post. It notes and that's what we call the workspaceand across every revenue team. At least we've been a part of Hem and we'veworked with Reps. are hacking together. These general purpose tools for thatand nothing existed. That was purpose built design for sales, and so that'swhat scratch fat is doing. It's always it's Analogu to what you know. If youlook at what chefs have therthey have a kitchen, you look at artists, they'vegot studios and wodborrs the about workshops, and so we kind of looked atthe world and said there are for for all these. These folks that have thiscrafts there are work, spaces optimized for performance for them and what asales have and that we just came kept...

...coming up with blanks and and heard itfrom from account executives all over as well. So that's what scrash fat istoday awesome and the Compan's pretty earlytell us how old is the company you just announce some funding, so you know tellus about the fundraising history: Just O can get a sense sure, so we've beenaround for Cotch Collit, roughly a year and a half, so it is really young,although the history, I'm sure will go into, and what let us to this point ismuch longer than that. Multiples of that- and today wevwe've been veryfortunate to work with some pretty incredible investor, so our seedroundwas led by Steve Lofflin over at Excel. Who was one of the founders of relateIq, and I think they were one of the the pioneers and what would be adifferent type of crm. They ended up at sales force and then recently weannounced our series a led by David Sachs overacraft ventures and is upsure more. It's most folks know they exclusively do bottom up. SASS Davidhimself has been around that space for a while Yep David is definitely alegend in the space. so that's that's fantastic. Let's figure out how you gothere. So what's your background? Pulyon yeah know, what's your training, youknow maybe out of Undergrad. Obviously I mentioned in the intro that you knowyou've started a bunch of companies. It's always really interesting. So atthis point we can successfully call you a Syrial Entrepreneur, walk us through the experiences that that gave you thatmonicer yeah or you could position it as unemployable by large companies. Butthat's the way I feel tooyea we can. We can go back to the journey, so I actually you know I studiedengineering and Undergrad and that Wass Mechanical Engineering, and that wasreally driven by just a curiosity of how things worked in the world and howthings were built, but I think the real driver for for me in wanting to to build. You know I'm in I guess FirstGen immigrant like I was actually I was inborn in the US where, as a immigranthere came over when I was fairly young...

Om iron, my parents are both engineersin Iran. But when we came here to start a new life in the US, you know typicalimmigrant story. They showed up with two suitcases, not much money. Myparents might at specifically went from. You know a very prominent well knownengineer to washing dishes in the back of an Irish restaurant for a while, I'mGoin to come a good delivery driver for Dominos Pizza, and you know puttingaway all of the ego and everything just to say: Hey. Wewant to start a new life, a and create something better for our family, and-and so I a lot of my, I guess- inspiration is drawn from thatexperience and it led from us actually owning a domino pizza. FranchiseAndi've probably been working. Since I was nine years old and I learned youknow I joke, I learned more about product and business from running an pizza shop than I did atPartfard business school, where I went to for femasters after engineering, butI think just that that desire to create something and build something and evena something as simple as I call pizza, where you know what I would I learnedand I think something that my dad really really pushed for was it's notjust pizza that were building or creating and shipping, even as afranchise Adominos. It's really an experience, and when somebody'sordering a pizza they're, not just ordering food it their orderingconvenience butid somebody that's worked all day. Just came home doesn'thave time to let say Cook Dinner, for the family and- and I think thoselessons and we certainly dive into those- are actually I'm drawing on alot of those and building scratch had een building persist Itou, but that wasreally the driver and those lessons for us a at least t he hedominos days whereyou know we took a couple stores or one store that was almost going bankruptand turned it around to beg one of the top performing stores in the US. I wasmanaging that when I was oun sixteen eros seventeen in high school. Like Ididn't, I wasn't able to watch the superbowl games because I was in thebackmaking pizzas and filling all thei orders, but I think that that was theearly days that led me to and then combine with. You know, curiosity forhow things worth with engineering. Let...

...me to business school, because I wasstill more curious about how the world worked and how business work. I reallydidn't know much about that Bat er grand scale. I knew it at a smallbusiness scale. I ded up an apple of all places before they had launched theeye for one an worth ther for about three years and and then I think it wasjust you know. Life is short and I really want to throw myself into intobuilding building products. Building companieswere experience, an design it focused on, and users matter is, and you know,ten years later here we are and Whas Yor. Well, first, let me I mean I lovethat's an incredible story and I didn't know Iti'm so glad you shared it withus. You mentioned you, learn more from you know, working running making pizzasrunning a franchise. What are some of the key lessons that you took from yourtime at dominos, yeah and obviously Ti Madominos, but you're go runningrunning your family business with your with your parents, yeah that you know.Obviously, there's there's some joking in that, as in away like the experience at at HBS was truly incredible and learned a lot fromthere. But I think from a from a tactical perspective is, I think,appreciating the bigger job to be done, and this is a framework actuallylearned at HBS at. I was fortunate enough to take a class with he playChristianson who, who developd the Frameworth the jobs toul be doneforamework. I didn't know what at the time, but that's what we were doing andit's not the John to be done for a lot of folks when they're calling to orderpizzas and just hey. I just want to feed myself and for some cases it is,but there's so much more wrapped up in that, and that's one of the corelessons and core applications that I'm relying on in terms of thinking aboutthe products that we build. The SASS PTB SASS products for sales, peoplethat we build, so that was that was a really important one and and just howimportant, full customer experiences and again, if I come back to to thedays of making pizzas sure the pizza itself is a product, but if you expandbigger than that, it's the entire experience that matters. Everythingfrom the initial phone call that they make to how you pick up the phone tohide, to respond to the delivery time...

...to the post followups, and so Iremember we would. We would have a very high quality barand if a certain pizza didn't meet our standards, we would just want educatethe entire team and show them a d saying hey like. For these reasons.This thing we're not going to let up go out the door here, because this doesn'treflect our quality standards. This doesn't reflect our brand, and so Ithink we're applying a lot of those lessons again and building software. Ilove that. So you come out of of Apple and is in myright that Leira labs it did. I pronounce that right is the first EOGIT.So what did they do? tellous on your journey want to hear about Lera en herabout persist. I Q as well yes, actually joined before their alab, sothe journey was this, so I was an apple for about three years and, and that wasjust an incredible experience and you know again, I knew I wanted tobuild. I didn't quite know what, though, but I knew I cared a lot about userexperiences. I cared a lot about design and hi. Just was more fascinated bysoftware n than hardware, and so I actually joined joined a starter calledstackmob. As you know, as advisor early on and then joined very losely afterthere is a see round, and that was more like a herocal for for mobile thethesis there was moleap developers or mobilop development is ticking off,there's very little back and infrastructure and so made sense Wewereas next day around the challenge. There was there just really wasn't a marketfor it, AF developers, weren't making lots of money, and so it's either anenterprise play and then coming out of that I went to Redpoin Bentes as inyir.That's when I teamed up with my nop current cofounder, so we've beentogether for call it almost a decade. Bildi Soti,it's been quite quite the relationship, but we just learned so much togetherand I you know we all be honest. We didn't really know what we were doing.What we knew was our nort stores. We cared a lot about creating productsthat solve real problems that people had on a day to day basis. So now it'slike Callit, you know, work flow type,...

...productivity, type, software wheredesign user design, user experience was important, and so we kind of went onthis journey and that's really what their allowse was was exploring manydifferent problems. We started with something in the marketing automation,space that connected offline transactions to online engagement,probably spent way too long in that, and I think neither my cofond or diactually had an exany experience in sales, but I think that's what weyhelped us build empathy for it, because we kept going into this pattern. Whereyou know we, I have an idea. We built something an I say: Well, Gosh now we'got to get it to people. How do we do that and so then began the days of coldcalling and finding prospects and qualifying and listening and- and so Ithink we just took a crash course into sales- There- that's what I wouldattribute back to putting us on this journey, that's kind of that's where weare now and building software for for sales, so what it persist. I Q do. Imean, I think, yeah. If I'm not mistaken us you that that business wasacquired, so hopefully a successful exit but walk us through the journeythere. Yeah. So I'd say with you know, hat I'm blossing over a lot of he thethings we did at Lara labs because honestly, there's so many things thatwe built that that never saw the day of the Legter Day, but with each one witheach ith each subsject. En Idea, I feel like we just got better and better atknowing what problem we were solving and Witd persisten Qou. We were solvinga very acute pain that problem that we had, and that was we had a product thatwe had built. That was very similar to like. I don't know if you remeber clearslide back in the day and then this docs says at we built something verysimilar to that, because you saw his Valu wight, you send a document out andyou woutd no idea what would happen and we had that. But we didn't havecustomers, so we were doing lots about bomb prospecting. I had a excelsiate,probably with twenty five hundred names on there and I hacked male. It was thunderbirds mail client,and there was like this ad on. You...

...could do for Milmerge, so ias manuallydoing a mail merge to a hundred prospects a day coming back the nextday, keeping track of who responded, who didn't submit en to a hundred, andit just blew my mind that there was nothing built for that job to be doneat back in the day back, then you had yes, where you a towt up at the email,client level, and then you had Marquetto and we were like hosh likethis is a pain we know well, we know there's other people that are doingthis job. WHY DOESN'T ANYTHING EXIST? And so that was the inspiration for usto build, persist atq. It was somethingthat was built, frind users. You know it felt like human one to onecommunication, but it had some automation, so you could do it. Do itat a bit more scale, and it was interesting because when we came out ofwife we got a now by combinator with that, when we came out of it very fewinvestors believed in it or got it at all. They're, like we don't think thisis even going to be a space sales force, will do this. MARQETTA will do this.You know you fast forward. A few years you not have o know outreaches as theleader and sales lofes is a big competor as well, both besoboth of them.You know UNICORNS. Both of them were so exacon dollars, yeah themultibilliondol. Several you know billion dollar companies that have beenbuilt here and you know just hats off to them. You know I think we were all doing similar things in the same spaceand I think that we learned so many lessons in and building that thatproduct in that company that wwe're trying to APCLI now but yeah thatthat's why we started it like. We felt the pain we knew it and it irresonatedwith other folks that that we talked to and you worked on it for a while right,you it, and that was a five year journey. What was the culmination orthe you know, the transition point where that reached a natural conclusion,and you and your cofounder decided to work on scratch pad and launch that. Iwish it were that clean Toyou, no, even with any any of the things that we'veworked on, that you know woke up in the morning and had this flash ofbrilliance and then we knew what to do. It's rarely ever that clean, it's yeahsupermessy, so...

...the longest story with persist- and Ithink there this is something that I think is becoming more prevalent asmore and more companies are started as your kind of find yourself in thismessy middle, and you know we got to a milliona revenue very quickly in a verycapital, efficient way. N. What happened was we're probably behind ontiming just by a few months, and it's crazy that that's what made it af thedifference, but you know out retrays sales, loff, rased and the reality isthe difference between a lot of these products is pretty minimal from thevirus perspective, and so that's what we just kept finding ourselves in hisgosh is really. If we set back there really isn't a way for us tomeaningfully compete or differentiate. Let me just say that, because it feltlike it was more of a marketing game at that point, so it really wasn't a cleanconclusion. It was more. Do we want to go that route and be atry to be the venture funded business, raising lots of capital go for thebillion dollar plus valuation, and I think Yit just became very clear that that's probably not the right path forUson, not to say that they're on other past, what we decided was: let's notraise any more capital we'd raised, Thi seed round with that capital we'regoing to build a cash flow, profitable business and see where it takes us, andI think that was probably one of the hardest journeys that Ar Times Tha,that you know I had my cofounder team because you're, not the OD company andyou're, not growing that quickly, and so what kept us going, though, as likewe felt like we had a great team, we knew how to build and we just kept backto going to what are other problems that we could solve. That could be meaningful. That could have ameaningful impact on how people work, and we probably knew that maybe threeyears into the journey that we, you know persistisin going to be the oneTHATT's going to be this, this massive company with the Starty, the venturefunded company. Let me say that, because I still think you can build amassive company in a more capital efficient way and through that journeyI mean we again. We built all sorts of stuff. It wasn't like scratch had wasobvious touse even now. I'd say that...

...we're still learning so much about it,but it was just a ton of observations, ton of insights that we connected thedots together that just put us on the trajectory right. It was just like aone degree shift in the direction that kind of let us where we are know, makesa lot of sense. So, let's talk about you know. We mentioned it at the outset,but sales people need to workspace. Tell us about scratchpad the origin ofit, an I guess, the other the other, and then we can talk about sort oflessons learned over the course of the last fifteen to twenty years. But Ialso feels like you've got you not. Not only have you developed empathy for thesalesperson, but you've developed a belief that go to market excellence cansometimes trump product excellent. So I'd love to hear about that. But let'sstart with scratch pad and sort of you know the origin of it. What problemsit's trying to solve to the point of making meaningful changes and and whatyou see for the future of the company Yeah San? What you just said. I thinkit's so on point the the last piece on the go to market excellence, so that Ifeel, like is not, is not emphasized enough for focused on it in the earlydays of building a company. So I guess happy to come back to that and and showsome thoughts in terms of scratch pad itself and how we got here.I'll, be honest at first. It wasn't immediately obvious to us that this isa meaningful problem to solve. We all know if every cause't everyone knowsit's a problem in that either studies that sales forces has even done. Thatsays the day in the life of a rap, only thirty, seven percent or roughly thatmuch is speatselling. The rest is all sorts of other stuff. Everyone knowsSol, you know, sales force is hard to update sales. Leadership is, and OPteams are struggling with getting the right dato to sales force. So we knowthe problems ere there. We just didn't know that this was meaningful enoughfor what the right angle was into it and what kind of really cemented it forus and we ended up shadowing a bunch of account executives and the way we gotto that point was we had actually built a completely different products thatgave...

...sales leadership and insight into anaccount map, so think of it. As you know, if you were to rebuild outreadsailoff pracissic cu today from the groundup for a company, that's sellingto enterprise level organizations, you probably wouldn't do a canencer, asequence they're very linnear, it's very like if they don't response, endanother email, and so we actually did build something o I helpe at some point.It comes out because I still think it's really cool, but it gives you an entireview of an account who you've connected with who you have and what futureactions are, and we actually got a lot of leaders that loved it. But we didn'tyet reps to use it, and so that's what Causeus to go dig in and I'll, neverforget. We literally sat behind. You know one of our first raps Geo. We satbehind him for a few hours and just watched him work and it just it blew ormind that he had thirty times open. He was taking notes. You know all of hisnotes went into the common section of a task, maybe one of the top performersthere and he was just like yeah. This is just what I do. I know it sucks, itslows me down, but I, like I stay, organized and- and I go through thispain and most folks a and that wasn't unique, but most rats just accepted.This is the stick of the World Sa Yeah. We know this is the necessary evil. Wejust have to go through it, but we've got a quota ta hit and that's when allof our prior experience, though persisted you and some other productideas that we had kind of came together and said Gosh like woul. If what if there was something like a verylight way task manager that was just built for sales and then you combine, you know a weight,update, pipe and maybe SOM noites and other things ecause Therr, you knowmost folks are working out of ever notor, macnotes or Wonedow, and so itwas just through this series of like building testing, getting conviction,trying to get more signal that it became obvious that no like this isactually really needed, and it's it actually has a meaningful way on howpeople work. That's awesome, so you mentioned thatit's sort of a workspace, so is the workflow. You know this is an audiopodcast, but is visually? Is it? Is it like...

...mainly like kind of a notetakingapplication that easily? Maybe when you click save it immediately updates allof the different systems you might be using and maybe prompts you to takenext steps? Is it something that you're supposed to work from instead of salesforce? So it's yeah, it's a good question and I actually, I think it'sdifferent for different people and that's one of the all all other thingsthat I think building for sales is so hard is one. Every sales organizationis set up differently. Every sales force instance is set up differentlyand even within one team, most raps to work differently. Some are very heavynotetakers. Some aren't some are religious about keeping pipe updated,others aren't its on the head, and so the concept of the workspace is issaying. However, you work whether your heavy task user, heavy notetaker,heavyr, Spitch user we've built a system that is specificfor sales. So, instead of let's say having to work with ever note, Macnotes or one note- you could use out scratch at and the benefits there areit's the same experience. It's a basic text editor, but your note then becomesyour portal to sales. For so you don't need to switch Tams to get to sale,sports update fields, push what have you if you're heavy spreadshee takerwe've got that. Imagine a Google sheet, that's directly connected the sales forso you don't have to copy pays, go back to extra work, same thing with he taxmanager, and so you know in some ways we tell people like. Listen, we're notactually doing anything radical. You there's no crazy new functionality,THERE'S NO AI! Behind this thing, we've kind of come back to the basics andjust said: let's just make it incredibly fast. Let's remove as manyclicks as possible and lets actually make it delightful right. Sales is apretty tough job and it kind of bothered us that. Why should the UX farbe any lower for this type of an application? Let's a consumer APPS, andso we just obsessed over those fundamentals and no one knew thatadoption was the most important thing, because if sales rapsdon't use it n,nothing else, matters no crazy, tackray! I behind it matters. So that's reallyit. I don't want to oversell it over promis. It's really like the thing thatreps are already doing today. Just ta...

...heck of a lot faster, andless Dou, lookat work to go out the tall fors. Well, that's pretty compelling because oftentimes it's the simplest ideas like that that just you know, make an improvementon things like speed that are the differentiators. Let's take it back tothat comment that you're clearly passionate about there's, so manycompanies out there there's so many amazing technical founders and peoplethat are building great products. Your experiencis, that's not enough rightand that go to market excellence needs to a is sometimes even more importantthan quality. The product may be expand on that a little bit yeah. I believe that I think buildingis almost emphasized too much as a founder skill set and selling Votomarket is not emphasize enough, because in this comes from personal experienceand having spent months, you know in our first productwe worked on. We worke on I for a year than you don't get that time back, andso my belief now is try to actually sell before you build and it just you'll learn so much bygoing through that process. Because an again I'm not talking about hardware,I'm not talking about infrastructure, so those are completely or let's say,healthcare. I'm talking about more application level products, so justjust to set that Cavia, but the building part has actually becomerelatively easier. There's so much great infrastructure these days- andyou know to get a product out- is I don't want to say it's certainly hard,but don't Git me like. I don't Wanto accet the wrong expectations here, it'certainly hard, but knowing what to build and why people are going to careand how you bring Itto market. I think it's even more important because ofthose reasons right any product that that's built, nowt instantly you'regoing to get different copies of it, a d and the me tos, and all that and sohaving alignment between your product, your Goto market is so critical and Ithink the sooner you get that early on and that's where IAGAIN I keep comingback to you know w with then we're still going through this today sondlike, even though we have a product...

...with scratch, how there's a ton of newstuff that we're working on? We actually try to understand the. Why,before we build anything, we rely on storytelling on mockups on functional,functional mockops. To try to see. Is this really solving a pain point forpeople? Why would they care- and I think these come back to the COR skillsets of sales like? Are you identifying Yor real paint? What is the implicationof solving that pain for somebody and we supply that to the productdevelopment and sang? Do we have that clear reason before we actually putreal engineering resources behind it because again, we've just we made thismistake so many times ore you built something you believe it's going totake off. You believe it's going to solve a problem. You get it out thereand you're like crap. Now what absolutely does product led growth, fikfactor into your philosophy at all to the point of getting reps to adopted?Are you? Is there a free component to scratchpad, also just in terms ofmaking sure that you're not like going top down trying to get adoption whenyou know, there's resistance down o the bowels of the organization they'regoing to drive for Noan lifetime value, so I think the grass is always greeneron the other side, what Thi is to be honest because in a lot of you know, alot of the topdown sales are like. Oh Gosh, that the product like grorthstuff just must be so easy ore getting adoption. You just go to the top itself,no way, that's not how easy that's not how itplays, but you know when you get to top down sale like you usually get biggerdeals, you're getting buying from keystick holders early on Wbut it comesin a trade off like you have to develop that pipe with product led yeah. It'syou know. It looks great because, like you're getting it really is the productthat's leading pipeline and it's creating it's creating that pipelinefor you and it's just users are adopting at the product, is essentiallyyour marketing, but that poses its own series of challenges of how do youactually do the sale? And so I don't know if one is better than the other. Iknow there's this huge wave on product linke growth and everyone trying toemphasize it. I just again, I think...

...both are great. Both work, it justdepends on. Do you have alignment and what I see a htis, a lot ofmisallignement like you may have truly a topdown enterprise level, typhproduct and then you're, trying to shoe horn in product len or you have poduct,Len and and you're not through the opposite, makes sense, put Yo on we'realmost at the end of our time together for, for today, we'll have you backfrom FIDA fundamentals, but before we go one of the things we like to do iswe like to follow the bread crumb trail as the way I say it, which is reallyfigure out? Some of your influences, some of the people that you think weshould know about some of the an it can be anything. It can be a great bookthat you think we should read that informed your theory on business orlife. It can be an investor or a mentor or an incredible colleague that youwant that. You think we should know about when you think it w en, when Iframe it like that, which is just great ideas or great people that you want topresent to the rest of the world. WHAT COMES TO MIND GOSH? I wish we HAVD moretime, there's so many that I've relied on. Maybe to get to this point. Well, Iguess first our phonemals I'll say my cofounder SRUCE. I haven't brought thatup before bet. You know we've been working together for ten years and- andI think the like I've learned so much because I think he you know what I'velearned. There is just the emphasis on simplicity and as being a both aproduct leader, a technology leader, but also the champion for and theprotector of simplicity, because one of the hardest things that I think we haveto fight is keeping a very simple intuitive experience as the productfootprit expands and there's a lot of froquent to cover in sales. I learne aton from all the folks on my team. So t that's certainly, but you know I think,in terms of books that have helped there's a lot and I picke differentpieces from different ones, but one is competing against luck again by ClayChristians, and I think I is really a great one on helping thin through thejobs to be gone. Focusing on that brought this up on another podcast bookcalled the mom test, and I think that's something that just helps with earlyidentifying girly signal, so there's lots of eq len books on call it salesquestions or sales qualification. I...

...kind of look at this as the same asvalidating an idea, because it's so easy to get excited when somebody has apositive reaction. What you need to dig further VICR is that thes he realsignal there when somebody has a positive reaction. What is the mom test ID is. What isthat? Is there like a question where that you ask about mothers or two amother? No, no, I think yeah. It's and again it's been a while, since I'veread it, but it's if I were to explain straft fad to mymom, could I do in a way where that it would land in? I would resunate or Iwould be able to get signaled from it, and I think it it's much more around.Quite you know. I remember one of the bearliest books I read was, I think,the suces of question based selling, when I was trying to figure out how tosell and just realize that I was just somebody would pick the phone up and Iwould do it was like verbal Voma and I realized. No, you know I need to talkless. I mean to ask more questions and let the prospect talk more. This, Iwould say, is the equivalent for founders that are trying to get signalon an idea. A lot of you ask question yeah, so I think that's important yeahI mean I could go on forever, like the folks of Y C, through persist wereincredibly helpful or Earli. No MAPRAZINA, one of our early seetinvestors in pursis that is carried through with us, has just beenincredibly credit. I outful. If anyone gets a chance to work with him, Ihighly recommend it Yeahi'll stop there because there's many more, but I wantto take up too much time on this awesome. HOPL Pullyh, it's been great,having oin the show we're going to talk youon Friday for Friday fundamentals.If folks want to get in touch with you, maybe they want to buy scratch pad. I'msure, there's reps listening that are bit are pretty intrigued. What's thebest way to reach you or you know, how do you want people to contact you yeah,so you can just send me an email, I'm pretty open about it. It's just myfirst name dobt last name at scratchpadcom, so puon dot, Saly itcratchfidcom or blinked in twitter, oon there and yeah. If you want to try toscratch at it, it is free. I didn't answer that that part of your questionbefore Sam so for end users is a completely freemium model. SIGNUP startusing it there's no time limit on it, but otherwise yeah. If I just want tothy start up,...

...learn more about the experience who hadI culd be helpful in any way. Weshall awesome put you on thanks so much andwe'll talk to him Friday for Friday fundamentals thanks for Hauving, xem eeverybody, it's Sam's corner greatconversation with Puonsalhi, a couple things for me to take from thatconversation. The first just don't you love t the first generation story ofsomebody coming to the unit. Well, you may not love it if you're from acountry that this is I'm sorry if you're aninternational listener- and I'm here you know jinguistically glorifying theUnited States, but it's still pretty damn cool when somebody comes and justbuilds a life and he and his parents came over here and they were engineers-and you know they had to ditch that and his father was a dominos delivery pizzadriver and then they eventually developed and acquired their owndominos franchise and became small business owners, and you know the freeflow of humanity and ideas and capital innovation is hopefully what makesgreat systems thrive, and it's wonderful to see that the second wejust have to give credit to. We talked about a little bit but pillon'sperseverance. He started a lot of different companies. They've worked onthings. He and his cofounder have worked on things for years and years.SCRATCHPAD is not the first company he's ever started. He has not had abreakout. IPO kind of you know, slacksales for clubhouse twitter level.Success yet, but you get the feeling that it's just a matter of time,because he is so focused on just continuing to try and build companiesand build products that people love and it's really cool, and I think inretrospect and an hindsight first he's living his life to the fullest, butalso every failure sets the stage for the next great success, and certainlythat's true in my life and it's in an inspirational tale from pullion andthen third, we talked about it, but just so many people building technologyproducts in the valley all over the...

...world without a great sense of how totake those products to market and really Fuiansa sell before you built,which is heresy in some corners of the world. But his point is get the ideasinto the hands of your customers and users get those ideas in there andfigure out what ideas resonate: ND figure out what kinds of signal you're.Looking for when you're looking for response, he mentioned the book the Momtest, which frankly sounds a bit sexist, but not not that he's sexist, but youknow explain it to your mom. Explain it whate explain it to your dad. Thegender of the parent is not important. My Dad understands I'll tell you. Myfather understands things less well than my mother and I love them both,but anyway should be called the parent test. Just putting that out there.That's not the point. The point is that you need to have empathy for your user.You need to be solving problems that are meaningful to them and then youwill build. You will figure out what to build, but in the absence of customerconversations in the absence of empathy, in the absence of being in tune withthe market you're going to face a lot of trouble- and you know there's a lotof new agy ways of articulating that to because really what for me what it'sabout, I is being a clear conduent for the energy of the universe and youthink, I'm being funny, I'm not I'm not being funny the energy, the universe,meaning people's thoughts wants needs, emotions reactions, you were a greatcompany, simply a reflection back to them of what they need, what they wantand it's a clear channel. It's a clear pipeline between somebody's expression,of a request for a solution or a request to alleviate pain and yourability to alleviate the Apain by listening extremely closely. Then youcan figure out what to build. If you listen very very closely so anyway feellike we went off in a few td different directions in the SAMs corner, butthat's okay! If you want to reach out to me, you can linkeoncom for lash theword in Forg Lash, Sam, F Jacobs. That's the best way to reach out to meif you're, not part of the sales hacker...

...community, yet you're really missingout any sales professional can join as a member to ask questions, getimmediate answers and share experiences with life. Minded sales professionalsjump in and started discussion with more than ten thousand salesprofessionals hat sales hackercom. Thanks again to our sponsor outreach,remember schedule Onlease, two thousand and twenty one may eeven throughthirteen unleash dot outreached out io. Did you give us five stars on Itunes?Yet a lot of things for you to do? I have a big to do list th this next todo list is give us five stars on itunes. You can get touch with me if you wantit'Sall, I've got for now. WE TALK TO YOU NEXT TIME.

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