The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 9 months ago

157: Bootstrapping, Building & Scaling Startups w/ Lloyed Lobo



This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we speak with Lloyed Lobo, Cofounder at Boast.AI.

Boast.AI automates access to billions in R&D tax credits and innovation incentives so companies can fuel their growth while preserving equity and avoiding red tape. Lloyed also co-chairs Traction, a community that brings leaders from the fastest growing companies together to share insights into building and scaling startups via weekly webinars, regular meetups, and an annual conference.

We hear about Lloyd’s extensive entrepreneurial background and the powerful lessons he has learned along the way.

What You’ll Learn

  1. How Boast.AI simplifies the R&D tax credits process
  2. The relationship between pioneer mentality and risk tolerance
  3. Different phases to the evolution of
  4. Raising money at the right time for the right reasons
  5. Learning and openness enable growth

Show Agenda and Timestamps

  1. Show Introduction [00:00]
  2. and Lloyed’s entrepreneurial background [2:26]
  3. Pioneer mentality and risk tolerance [6:27]
  4. Phases in the evolution of Boast.AI [10:53]
  5. Raising money at the right time for the right reasons [19:58]
  6. Learning and openness enable growth [24:50]
  7. Sam’s Corner [28:42]  

Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs,and before jumping in to what you're about to listen to, I'd be remissednot to tell you about unleash two thousand and twenty one. On May eleventhrough thirteen, were focusing on how to win all together in the new salesera. You'll learn new go to market strategies, get deeper funnel insights andactionabile takeaways for your entire organization from revenue leaders at Highgro startups and fortune fivehundred companies and are very special guests are none other than Guy Raz, podcasteror an author of how I built this and carry Lawrence, the first femalefighter pilot in the US Navy. Come Save Your seat for this high energyonline event at unleashed dot outreach dot I O. One, two, one, three, three. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to thesales sacer podcast. Today on the show we've got Lloyd Lobo. Lloyd isthe CO founder and president of boast DOT AI, which automates access to billionsin R and D tax credits and innovation and center so companies can fuel theirgrowth while preserving equity and avoiding right tape. Armed with a hundred and twenty threemillion dollars in funding. Boast is on a mission to help innovative companiesbecome successful. Lloyd also co chairs Traction, a community of over ninetyzero founders andTech Professionals Co founded by boast that brings leaders from the fastest growing companieslike shopify, Tulio, slack, Linkedin, Github, cloud, flare and manymore to share learnings and building growing and scaling startups by a weekly Webinars, regular meetups and an annual conference. Lloyd, welcome to the show.Thank you for having me, Sam. I'm honored Fosci, being a longstandingfan of salesacker. Well, we are, we well, I love, Ilove it when my fans are guy gets on his show. So welcometo it. We like to start with your baseball card, loid so,and really what this is is an opportunity. I just sort of describe the youknow, the boiler plate for boast. But first your name is Lloyd Lobo, but you don't you spell your first name slightly differently. Of folkswant to start googling you. How do you spell it? It's double LYeed. My parents are trying to be...

...different. They thought maybe someday I'llI'll trademark my name, and so they threw a knee and there it's beenmore more and embarrassment than a trademarkable name. Well, it's very distinctive. Weknow that you're the cofounder and president of boast DOT AI. This isa really interesting category, so give us an overview. What is boast doand talk a little bit about the space that you're operating in. Definitely so. Globally, over two hundred billion is given in research and development tax creditsby governments to fund businesses. These tax wedits have been in the tax lawsince the S. If you look at US and Canada, North America aloneit's over twenty five billion in research and development tax credits, and if youlook at the whole business tax credit space, it's several hundred billion between us andCanada. The problem is it's a cumbersome process. You got to waitfor the end of your tax here to apply. Most accountants don't even knowthese tax where its exist because they just want to file your taxes and geton with it. And so when you need to apply for it becomes cumbersomebecause you need to look back on the year and identify all the projects andthe work you'd give that meets this narrow criteria for these tax credits, andthen you got a file off, put together all the documentation and paperwork.So one is cumbersome to apply to. It's prone to frustrating audits because whenthe IRS or the Canadian government audit to you, they drag you to themud because they're like, show me documentation that this this work you're claiming forthese tax credits. They're not vaporware. And the last thing is it takesa long time to get the money. It takes sixteen months to get themoney. You incur a year of expenses, file it with your taxes and itgoes to government processing time. And our mission is to democratize access tothese tax credits to help people get more money faster, for less time andrisk. We integree with the company's technical stack and financial stack to streamline automatedthe process. It makes the audit process also streamline and because we have thisability to do this real time work, we tell companies that don't wait forgovernment processing times. Use Boast and get your money now as you go alongthrough the year. So cash flow improvement... as well, that's amazing.How old is the company? When did you start it? So we startedthe company many moons ago, in late two thousand and eleven. Early Twothousand twelve is when we started the company. But we started as a consulting firm. My cofounder, who I studied engineering with, he did a softwarestart up that failed, felt he needed to study accounting and ended up ata big four accounting firm in their arenai tax group. And he said thisprocess is manual and he's my best friend. So I jumped at the opportunity towork with him. I said, you know, if we can builda company that we want to work for, let's do it. And so westarted bost capital as a consulting firm doing already tax consulting, while wealso worked on two other startups. Right, we worked on a few other projects. We worked on a product called automatically, which was a chat boughtbuild uns end us, and then I went off and did speak easy aswell, sort of riffed on a few projects and then after speak easy failedand a two thousand and sixteen took two months break and then we rebranded boastfrom bost capital to boast ai software vision and then grew from like whatever,sub one million revenue back then, to over eight figures in three years.That's amazing. And what did speak easy do? That's a it's a goodname for a startup. I'm sorry it didn't work out, but interested init. Yeah, so's best summer ventures came up with the idea of speakeasy and incubated a team and I had the opportunity to work with Byron daterout of the best summer office there. I was brought into run like growthand then product. And what speak easy was it intelligent calling tool for salespeople? I was like Gong meets duly dot AI. Right, and thiswas back in two thousand and fifteen. I was totally bullish on the idea. Is funded by sales first, best of her and twilly. Oh,and the premise there was salespeople. They don't update the crm because you knowyour crm up. Activities are not sales activities, they're not selling activities.There are selling activities and there are non selling activities. Selling activities are liketalking to the client, trying to close the deal. Non Selling activities allthis grunt work. So what we said was, what if we bring thegrunt work into the selling activity, and...

...we do it so before the callit would automatically prepare the REP for the call. During the call it wouldpose a live sort of playbook for the call, like you're in a discoverycalled you're on a demo. It would it would share a live playbook soit could help you sell better. And after the call it would automatically updatedyour crm and generate an next set of action items. So that was speakeasy help you close more deals faster. Wow, and I guess, justbecause you're articulating, you know a rich entrepreneur background, but also one whereyou've been working on this for a long time. What's your background? Youknow, where'd you grow up and how did you get this the bug tostart businesses and to work on businesses and to be such a dynamic entrepreneur?Yeah, so definitely. I was born and raised in Kuwait. My parentsare from India. They were working there. I was a refugee of the GulfWar. Almost accidentally blew up the refugee camp in Jordan. I traveledas a refuge in the Gulf War in the s and then, after awhile, made my way to Canada. Studied Engineering and then my girlfriend atthe time, now my wife, she got into med school in the USand she wanted a med school and second year of Undergrad supersharper. So Ijust chased her and moved to the US after I finished engineering, and somy first job was in product in in New Jersey and then I worked inin sales and marketing. When she got residency in Philly, I work atanother startup in sales and marketing and then after that Alex, my cofounder CEOat boast, he called me and he's like, Hey, we should starta company. I don't know what, but we have a few ideas.Will start this one in the test wedded space and we drift on a fewthings together. But it's just that man that inside the drive to build somethingright. Like I'm an engineer, I studied engineering and I'm a creator.There's different kinds of you. There people who like to do new things andthere are people who like to take those things, when there are a certainpoint at take it to the next level. I'm the kind of guy who likesto just do new things. So everything at boast. It's been alot of fun for me because I always...

...end up doing new things. Onewas getting to product market fit, launching our first sales, then handing itover then like launching a new market, launching a new product, that sortof thing. Everything new is is fun for me. I like to likesort of consider myself like a pioneer mentality person. I like to get itfrom like to a point where it's product market fit and then hand it offto somebody to scale. Do you feel like your risk threshold or risk toleranceis informed by your upbringing, by your childhood, by moving around, bycoming from, you know, being being an immigrant into Canada in the US, or where you true be? Because there's just so many people that wouldlike to describe themselves as being a pioneer. They want to think that they takerisks, but they never can seem to take that first step, toleap into the void. What where do you attribute that, that instinct insideof you from? Definitely so. Here's an interesting thing there. I comefrom a background which is risk averse, traditionally right. People from India,Middle East their risk averse. It's it. Do you have a path, whichis you go to university, you become a doctor, engineer or someprofession that pays you repeatedly for years to come. And that's that was mywife's upbringing to is like you go to med school or else. And somy mom said the same thing. I wanted to be a chef. MyDad's are executive chef, retired now, and my mom said we're not payingfor chef school. She she's like better go get a profession, be anengineer or doctor kind of thing. Right. So it was very risk averse mentality. The problem was, I think it's just in my DNA here,right. I was always doing crazy things growing up. So my I Ijust felt like you learn more from experiences then from books. And it's andthe second philosophy was life and in business is a marathought. It's not ait's not a sprint, right, and so for me it doesn't matter ifit's the journey and Lissa, it's not the journey, it's not the destination. Is the companions that matter the most. So I didn't really finish high school. What I end up happening was I skipped my high school exams.I didn't have a high school diploma and...

...and my mom was like you bettergo to engineering. So I applied for engineering school and I don't really wasthis. Where was this? Geographically? This was in Canada, right inin close to Minnesota and Theater Bay, and they said we need to seeyour transcripts and I said there's political undress going on in Kuwait, so Idon't have any transcripts here. And they followed up for one semester and thenthey never did and I graduated with engineering without a high school diploma. Butall my life I've been I've been more drawn towards creating new things and Ijust not interested in looking at things the way they're done and trying to scalethem all right, like there's always something bugs me. There has to bea better way and after doing a few stints in product and growth, Idecided to go out on my own and do this with Alex and it's beenit's been a fun ride. So talk about in some sense, I guessyou've moved from consulting to software. Tell me if I got the dates wrongas as listening, but I think in two thousand and sixteen. But youmentioned is a two thousand and two thousand and twelve that you've been working onsome form of boast. Is that right? That's correct. That's a long time. Yeah, it is a long time. And and what do youso talk about the different phases of evolution, because I know one of the thingsyou're passionate about is how do you make sure that you have product marketfit before you try to grow more and and how do you know? Andwhat are the mistakes you make when you think you have product market fit butmaybe you don't? Yeah, definitely. So one of the key things is, while I did boast, I also did automatically, which was intercom beforepeople, like I didn't know intercom existed. This was two thousand and thirteen fourteen. Alex came up with the idea and said, hey, sales butcustomer service agents are in and dated. Let's build a let's build a Bot, and we ran some touring tests on twitter based on Jet Blues in ouractions, and we said Wow, we can respond ninety percent like real humanand so we build this this product call automatically. And so was doing Bost, doing this trying to see, like which one, which one hits.The thing is we didn't want to raise money, otherwise we would have probablybuild software and they wanted boast. Just...

I'd been a part of a fewbad experiences where, although I was not a founder, I was on theexact team and the companies that I raised money didn't didn't make money. Thefounders didn't make money. And and exit is not always a mean definition ofsuccess, because if the founders and exacts don't make money and only the investorsmake money, then it's not considered or success. I didn't want to raisemoney and so we did this product automatically. Then that failed and then we wererunning out of we didn't have the money to feed both founders, atboast as a consulting operation. So I I did speak easy. They're doingthat founding team there. I think one of the key learnings along the evolutionis this. Customers want an outcome. They want don't want a product,they don't want to service, they don't want your fancy I or dashboards.Customers want an outcome. Deliver them that outcome by any means possible early on. Then you can automate the rest of the stuff if you have customers thatare paying you money. And that was that was a big key learning.So to give you one example, out of automatically, what end up happeningwas we did all our customer development, early outreach. When we saw it, when we saw that it was a good idea, we could we couldautomate responses to jet blue at like ninety percent. I started calling all thebig CPG companies because of customer service, and as I talked to them Irealized, Hey, if they had a magic wand, they would want asolution like automatically, because it would plug into their customer service platform and automaticallyrespond intelligentlyre real human. Then we said okay, let's go about now buildingthis at scale. And we had asked all of them what customer service toolsthey were using and most of them were using like Oracle sales force. Andwhen we contacted Oracle sales for they're like, Hey, we got this huge approvalprocess. Is going to take you like a year to go through securityreview and build all of this stuff. So I've got this is the depthof a start up. So I ran to Zendsk's conference, cornered their APIgo and he's like yeah, you can drop an APP in our market placetomorrow. And because it was named with an a and the the value propwas so seemed simple. Intelligently respond to... a real human automatically right orautomatically respond like a real human. So we get thousands of people signing upfrom Zendesk, thousands and thousands of people signing up, and one thing wasa consistent theme. It was a it was a widget in the right sidebar. When a cory comes in, it pops up and automatically response.Everyone was like stop, stop the automated responses, you're responding and Gibberish,and so we made it editor prove and then the feedback was basically hey,it's not like ninety percent accurate, it's like forty percent accurate. And thatwas the key realization and and also a similar mistake we made a speak easyand I'll tell you dive into it in a second, but all my customerdevelopment we did for automatically wasn't large enner price customers. When we couldn't getinto sales force or or Coles market, you know, integrate with them,we ran to Zend USK and we didn't even think or realize that Zendes customerswere like sub thirty person companies back in thirteen fourteen. They didn't have enoughdata for you to create an intelligent response. So customers want an outcome. IfI know, knew then what I knew today. No, today Iwould have build the application such that we're just gone to everyone and said,what are the most common, like fifty most common questions you get asked andcreate a decision tree and build a bottle like that, which is very popularright now, and you know through inner common whatnot. But we had theopportunity to do that. So we got dejected. Back then in are likea, now, how we going to figure this out? And, asengineers are also arrogant, you're like, a, I should do this.Your customer does not care about your ai or your product. They care aboutan outcome. Deliver them that outcome very quickly, and so we stop thatproject. Then we you know, I joined speak easy and speak easy.When we launched we had fifteen tho users. Okay, think about it this way. Back in two thousand and fifteen, you got fifteen thou users at launchand every one's going crazy. All this is gonna get like slack,like adoption, running a bunch of facebook ads, mobile ads, and thenyou realize they're like no, this thing is going to fail because when youlooked at the profiling of the users,...

...they were butchers, bakers and candlestickmakers. Are All kinds of people. Bernie Sanders was using the sales callingAPP to run election campaigns and there were pastors using it to do run prayermeetings, and I said we got to shut down free, like each freeuser is costing as like in cougs, like thirty, because we were builton top of twilio. Yeah, we have lots and lots of people signingup every day because we running lots of mobile ads. But the bottom lineis this. There's no ideal customer profile. We funded by sales force who aresales calling APP. What is going on? Right, you got toshut down free, but they mindset around the exact team was, hey,you know, we can get slack like adoption. It's going to not enableus to raise money if we shut down free, no one's going to pay. Fought it, fought it, fought it. Finally we shut down freemate. It paid. WHO stuck around three hundred sales people and we built theproduct for the salespeople. Right, everyone is looking to get a job done, right, as a salesperson, as a marketer, whoever, as aconsumer of services and tools, you're looking to get a job done, andif you don't have an ideal customer profile, it's very hard to figure out whatjobs you're trying to help people through, right, and so we focused onthe salespeople. Why it shutdown was by the time we did that wholeRigamarole, we ran out of money, not enough traction to get to thenext round of funding. So the key realization, both from automatically and speakeasies, focus on one kind of customer. Like we a very, very likenarrowed down to a point of who is the title, what geography, whatindustry and whatnot, right. I guess a salesperson at CPG is very differentthan a salesperson at a Sass start up, right. So having that nail down, because then you can dominate the sphere around them, like where theyeat, breathe during sleep? What are the tools they buy so you canpartner with those tools? What events they frequency? You can go there.What books, magazines, blogs they read? You can dominate the sphere around them. So a lot of those learnings.

We use that bost because at boastwere like our mission is to help innovative companies become successful. We're founders, failed founders. We sell two founders and CEOS of fast growing technology companies. And because of that we're like, okay, as a fast growing technologycompany, yes, you need nondolude of capital, arend credits, but whatelse do you need? You need sales, you need marketing, you need scaling, hiring, you need all this other valuable information. And so westarted attraction as a community, and traction this turn into now a hundred thousandsubscriber nonprofit entity where we bring leaders from various facets of business to share advicefor free. And that community alone has not only led to a significant portionof our growth. Met Our investors through their met a lot of our keycustomers through their met folks like Max, cofounder of for founder of sales accorthrough their jason them can through there. We launched when we launched boast AIas a when we've pivoted from consulting to software in two thousand and seventeen,we launched at saster in two thousand and seventeen because of the community we builtthrough traction. Jason Limpkin gave us a free booth. So all of thatright. And I had the other fundamental belief, or a thing that Ilearned through that process. Was One is the focus. Focus on your customerand let that be your primary guide. All your decisions to flow through that. If you don't have your ideal customer profile, it's very hard to builda business like one kind of customer getting one kind of value coming through oneone kind of channel. At least when you're starting out, it's very important. The second thing is a value of community. I've will come to learnthat your product or service will not become a commodity if you build a community, if you fall in love with your customer and help them succeed beyond yourproduct or service, you'll build a lifelong relationship with them. So those twothings have been a very huge guiding principle for us at boast and bootstrapping toover it figures in revenue and then raising money when we didn't need the money. Why did you raise money? We...

...always felt that if you can turnone into three or four or five, we should take the money. Ithink the timing was right. The market was heating up with the pandemic.Everyone needed money and we had got to eight figures in revenue with for salespeople, no marketer and one big community. It's a small deaf team, mostlyCustomer Success Center operation. So you're like, now is the time.I mean globally, if you look at already, credits alone is two hundredbillion. If you look at all business Teska, it's over a tillion dollarsand it's a painful, laborious process. And we said, Hey, ifyou raise money, we can turn one into like three, five, maybeten. We need to we need to do this. If whether you know, are we going to build a sort of small operation? That yeah,you know, eventually you'll start stagnating, right, if you don't have money, you won't in a way, because you got to feed yourself also.So we said, if we take money, will be relaxed and we can growthe business. When I say relaxed, meaning personally, you know that.Now there's one stress off your head, meaning putting food on the table.So now you can invest in the company and grow it. And asa bootch as bootstraft founders, we did a lot of great things to builda profitable business to eight figures, and so now it's like, let's putfuel and blow this thing up. So that's why we raise I fundamentally believethat we can build a multi billion dollar company here. I think it's interestinglyyou just said some investors, because I think fundamentally what you're referring to isperhaps taking some of the money that you raised and selling pack and dairy or, you know, taking some of the proceeds from the fundraise and putting thatand creating financial security for yourself and your cofounder, which I think is awonderful thing. There are some founders, that are some investors that worry that, you know, if you take too much of that and put it intoyour personal bank account, that you will be less incentivized. But my perspectiveis that you'll probably be more incentivised because you view the business less personally andso you can make longer term, more...

...strategic decisions without worrying that you're jeopardizingyour nest egg. What's your what's your thought? You know, if founderstoday tell you that they're not taking even a small portion of the table likeat a post a stage, they're lying. Okay, I fundamentally believe their lyingbecause I've talked to dozens of dozens of investors and there are so manypeople who reached out to us and right now the VC pitch to founders andthe post a world. It's just that hey and will let you take moneyoff the table so you can be risk yourself a little bit. Right.So I don't know. I think taking a lot of money off the table, you may as well sell the company. here is you need to eat asfounders, especially when your boot trap. You've starved and not eating and you'vetaken jobs on the side and what not to run the business. You've nottaken a market rate. If you can pay yourself and and have a comfortablelife personally, then you'll do well professionally. If you're miserable at home because yourwife snagging at you because you're not bringing money at home and then you'realso working obscene amount of hours, you're not spending time with the family,you're stressed out right, like your mental health translate into physical health and viceversa. Rights is, if you want to kick ass at work, yougot to be able to kick ass personally. If you don't, you're going toburn out. And I had a near death experience with covid also.So last year pandemic hit and we all double down on working. Then therace takes a lot out of you and I told my wife and kids willcelebrate when the when the a round comes together, we close twenty three millionbucks. ANNOUNCED IT December ten. And then I get covid and I'd makenothing out of it. And then JEN second I'm in the hospital on oxygenand Ivy Support and pretty much get taken out for most of January and Ionly thought to myself one thing like wake up and smell the roses. Stopand smell the roses. Do a little better every day. If I wouldhave gone then in January and a lot...

...of people who are in that positionpasted right. I got covid pneumonia. I just regretted one thing. Iwish I could go back in time and spend more time with my family andkids. My wife, being a doctor, couldn't visit me in the hospital.We had a twenty four hours zoom on. I had like two nightswhere I forced myself to stay up thinking I'm going to die. What goodare you to your business or anyone if, like you, don't take care ofyourself professionally right, then you're miserable at work. You take it outon the people at work. It's just it's not a good dynamic, right. So I think I think it's for the biggest outcomes. If you seeacross the board, look at all the public companies, most of the biggestoutcomes are founder led and founders can have good outcomes if they're not personally takencare of. Agree, and I'm so sorry that you had to go throughthat and I'm glad that you pull through. You know, there's a light atthe end of the tunnel of the story, so I'm glad it workedout. Lloyd, we're almost at the end of our time together and whatwe like to do in this very last section is sort of pay it forwardand hear about people, ideas content that have deeply influenced you. Could bebooks you've read, could be people that you've interacted with. It have beenmentors or inspired you. When I frame it like that, what comes tomind for you? Definitely. So one thing I'll share. I think learningis one of the most important things in life, and the second thing isbeing open. Right. I think openness is this single most indispensable enabler ofgrowth, and so a lot of people, you know, they try to evenif you look at companies like hiring has turned into this sort of gatekeeping. Right. I want to add cultural fit and you got always think aboutlike adding people to your culture. And so I've always been this lifelong learner. The issue is I hate reading, and I don't know who will empathizewith me in the audience here, but everyone talks about books and books andread hundred books and I feel miserable every time I hear that because I hatereading. Then I'm just reading. Yeah, every time I hear that from peoplelike recommendations how to be successful.

But I came up with a hackfor it. Good, I'm so and my hack is every week I interviewtoo smart people that I respect a lot for an hour like this and Ipull and I then I edit the video myself and post it on our YoutubeChannel and I learn a lot just by asking questions like this two people,and I think that's been a great hack for me for the last few yearsin terms of learning. So I learned by interacting with people and I learnedby doing and I learned by asking a lot of questions. In terms ofspecific people who come to mind Jason Lemkin. I've learned a ton just from speakingto him. Listening to him reading his stuff, because it's just shortlike blog posts. They're very to the point and I feel like he's likea sort of founders angel in a way, because every time I'm going through aproblem, I feel like he's post just POPs up in my linkedin feeds. So great stuff. They're Jeff Lawson at tuillio phenomenal. He wrote thisgreat book recently, ask you or developer, which is good. Although I don'tread much, I interviewed him and also did read his book, sothat POPs into mine. I think just a lot of people are shy.They feel like if they ask people for help or advice they're troubling them.I see men's value in cold emailing people. We built this huge, huge networkjust from cold emailing. The first traction conference we did, I colde mailed all the speakers and then use the social proof of those who areinterested to follow up with the ones that are not, and then one shoedrops and the rest follows right. And so it's the power of asking,like give and also ask for help when you need. I think that's that'sreally important. So if anyone messages me, I respond to a lot of almostall my emails. I don't have an ea or anything like that.People message me on Linkedin, I respond on I take time if the volumeis high, but I do respond and I try to be thoughtful in theanswers I provide. Well, I love that and that's a natural segue.What is the contact in front? What is your content conformation of people wantto reach out or learn more or maybe...

...become a customer? Yeah, definitely. It's Lloyd Double Loyeed at Boast Dot Ai, and you can also lookme up on Linkedin and I'm there and on Youtube. If you just Googlesearch traction coffee'll find our youtube channel. Like today I interviewed far on,who's the VP of engineering at Chop Offy, and I'm going to edit that videomyself because I learned a ton there and I want to hey, didI miss anything? It's say for me that for me, that hack isbetter than than reading a book. Awesome, Lloyd, thanks so much for beingon the show. Will Talk to you on Friday for Friday fundamentals.Definitely, hey, everybody, SAM's corner or great conversation with Lloyd Lobo.Really love it just talking to people that think broadly metaphorically conceptually, that haveexperience doing things that have failed and risen back up, and Lloyd's a perfectexample. You know, he's tried a bunch of other companies. He workedat this company speak easy. He worked at a company called automatically. Hetalked about, you know, product led growth is such a popular thing rightnow, except when you're built on top of Tuilio and every time somebody wantsto use your free product, Ulio's charging you money but you're not making anyand so Lloyd talked about his time at a Bessemer back company, sales force, back company called speak easy. That really formed a lot of his ideasabout how to make sure that you're focused, that you're focused when you're building yourcompany. And so, you know, he talked about how speak easy wasnot focused enough. They had all different kinds of people using the freeproduct. They shut it down and focus just on building a solution for salespeople, and that focus is really cool to what they're trying to do withboast at Ai and I just thought that idea is a really interesting idea.You know, also the self awareness. You know, Lloyd brings a lotof self awareness to the conversation talking about how some people are pioneers and somepeople of settlers. There are benefits and disadvantages to each. I don't wantyou to out there to think that, you know, settlers is necessarily apejorative because, frankly, pioneers are the people that die much more frequently.They get all kinds of terrible diseases on their way to California and to tothe West from from the east. If... had to go through Panama andyou didn't have enough money, then you are hiking through the jungle. Sometimesget malaria. Otherwise you had to sail around the southern tip of South America, which was terrible. There was no trans Contin on a railroad. So, you know, being a pioneer is an all it's cracked up to be. Think about the first people that are going to go to Mars. Thosepeople are going to have a terrible quality of life and they're probably going toget radiation poisoning on the way. So yes, one day Mars will bea beautiful place to live with, you know, an atmosphere that we createdthrough some kind of shaken bake colony, as they say in the movie aliens. But until then, it's going to be a terrible place to live.So being a pioneer isn't always the best you take on more risk and yourisk more as a consequence, but when it pays off, it pays offbig and Lloyd is a shining example of somebody that helped build a bootstrap companyand then took money when it was the right time to take money and Acceleratinto growth. So I really love that conversation. Now, before we go, thanks again to our sponsor, outreach. Outreach is the number one sales engagementplatform and you can learn all about them at outreached Outeo. A coupleother things. If you haven't signed up for on, least think about atmay eleven through thirteen, we're focusing on how to win all together in anew sales era very special guests, including Guy Ras and carry Lorenz. Goto unleashot outreached Oudio for more information. If you want to reach out tome, you Ken Sam at Revenue Collective. Thatcoms my email address or linkedincom forward, slash the word in for Sam f Jacobs. Okay, really goodtalking everybody today and I'll talk to you next time. God bless you.

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Episodes (355)