The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

157: Bootstrapping, Building & Scaling Startups w/ Lloyed Lobo



This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we speak with Lloyed Lobo, Cofounder at Boast.AI.

Boast.AI automates access to billions in R&D tax credits and innovation incentives so companies can fuel their growth while preserving equity and avoiding red tape. Lloyed also co-chairs Traction, a community that brings leaders from the fastest growing companies together to share insights into building and scaling startups via weekly webinars, regular meetups, and an annual conference.

We hear about Lloyd’s extensive entrepreneurial background and the powerful lessons he has learned along the way.

What You’ll Learn

  1. How Boast.AI simplifies the R&D tax credits process
  2. The relationship between pioneer mentality and risk tolerance
  3. Different phases to the evolution of
  4. Raising money at the right time for the right reasons
  5. Learning and openness enable growth

Show Agenda and Timestamps

  1. Show Introduction [00:00]
  2. and Lloyed’s entrepreneurial background [2:26]
  3. Pioneer mentality and risk tolerance [6:27]
  4. Phases in the evolution of Boast.AI [10:53]
  5. Raising money at the right time for the right reasons [19:58]
  6. Learning and openness enable growth [24:50]
  7. Sam’s Corner [28:42]  

Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs, and before jumping in to what you're about to listen to, I'd be remissed not to tell you about unleash two thousand and twenty one. On May eleven through thirteen, were focusing on how to win all together in the new sales era. You'll learn new go to market strategies, get deeper funnel insights and actionabile takeaways for your entire organization from revenue leaders at Highgro startups and fortune five hundred companies and are very special guests are none other than Guy Raz, podcaster or an author of how I built this and carry Lawrence, the first female fighter pilot in the US Navy. Come Save Your seat for this high energy online event at unleashed dot outreach dot I O. One, two, one, three, three. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the sales sacer podcast. Today on the show we've got Lloyd Lobo. Lloyd is the CO founder and president of boast DOT AI, which automates access to billions in R and D tax credits and innovation and center so companies can fuel their growth while preserving equity and avoiding right tape. Armed with a hundred and twenty three million dollars in funding. Boast is on a mission to help innovative companies become successful. Lloyd also co chairs Traction, a community of over ninetyzero founders and Tech Professionals Co founded by boast that brings leaders from the fastest growing companies like shopify, Tulio, slack, Linkedin, Github, cloud, flare and many more to share learnings and building growing and scaling startups by a weekly Webinars, regular meetups and an annual conference. Lloyd, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me, Sam. I'm honored Fosci, being a longstanding fan of salesacker. Well, we are, we well, I love, I love it when my fans are guy gets on his show. So welcome to it. We like to start with your baseball card, loid so, and really what this is is an opportunity. I just sort of describe the you know, the boiler plate for boast. But first your name is Lloyd Lobo, but you don't you spell your first name slightly differently. Of folks want to start googling you. How do you spell it? It's double L Yeed. My parents are trying to be...

...different. They thought maybe someday I'll I'll trademark my name, and so they threw a knee and there it's been more more and embarrassment than a trademarkable name. Well, it's very distinctive. We know that you're the cofounder and president of boast DOT AI. This is a really interesting category, so give us an overview. What is boast do and talk a little bit about the space that you're operating in. Definitely so. Globally, over two hundred billion is given in research and development tax credits by governments to fund businesses. These tax wedits have been in the tax law since the S. If you look at US and Canada, North America alone it's over twenty five billion in research and development tax credits, and if you look at the whole business tax credit space, it's several hundred billion between us and Canada. The problem is it's a cumbersome process. You got to wait for the end of your tax here to apply. Most accountants don't even know these tax where its exist because they just want to file your taxes and get on with it. And so when you need to apply for it becomes cumbersome because you need to look back on the year and identify all the projects and the work you'd give that meets this narrow criteria for these tax credits, and then you got a file off, put together all the documentation and paperwork. So one is cumbersome to apply to. It's prone to frustrating audits because when the IRS or the Canadian government audit to you, they drag you to the mud because they're like, show me documentation that this this work you're claiming for these tax credits. They're not vaporware. And the last thing is it takes a long time to get the money. It takes sixteen months to get the money. You incur a year of expenses, file it with your taxes and it goes to government processing time. And our mission is to democratize access to these tax credits to help people get more money faster, for less time and risk. We integree with the company's technical stack and financial stack to streamline automated the process. It makes the audit process also streamline and because we have this ability to do this real time work, we tell companies that don't wait for government processing times. Use Boast and get your money now as you go along through the year. So cash flow improvement... as well, that's amazing. How old is the company? When did you start it? So we started the company many moons ago, in late two thousand and eleven. Early Two thousand twelve is when we started the company. But we started as a consulting firm. My cofounder, who I studied engineering with, he did a software start up that failed, felt he needed to study accounting and ended up at a big four accounting firm in their arenai tax group. And he said this process is manual and he's my best friend. So I jumped at the opportunity to work with him. I said, you know, if we can build a company that we want to work for, let's do it. And so we started bost capital as a consulting firm doing already tax consulting, while we also worked on two other startups. Right, we worked on a few other projects. We worked on a product called automatically, which was a chat bought build uns end us, and then I went off and did speak easy as well, sort of riffed on a few projects and then after speak easy failed and a two thousand and sixteen took two months break and then we rebranded boast from bost capital to boast ai software vision and then grew from like whatever, sub one million revenue back then, to over eight figures in three years. That's amazing. And what did speak easy do? That's a it's a good name for a startup. I'm sorry it didn't work out, but interested in it. Yeah, so's best summer ventures came up with the idea of speak easy and incubated a team and I had the opportunity to work with Byron dater out of the best summer office there. I was brought into run like growth and then product. And what speak easy was it intelligent calling tool for sales people? I was like Gong meets duly dot AI. Right, and this was back in two thousand and fifteen. I was totally bullish on the idea. Is funded by sales first, best of her and twilly. Oh, and the premise there was salespeople. They don't update the crm because you know your crm up. Activities are not sales activities, they're not selling activities. There are selling activities and there are non selling activities. Selling activities are like talking to the client, trying to close the deal. Non Selling activities all this grunt work. So what we said was, what if we bring the grunt work into the selling activity, and...

...we do it so before the call it would automatically prepare the REP for the call. During the call it would pose a live sort of playbook for the call, like you're in a discovery called you're on a demo. It would it would share a live playbook so it could help you sell better. And after the call it would automatically updated your crm and generate an next set of action items. So that was speak easy help you close more deals faster. Wow, and I guess, just because you're articulating, you know a rich entrepreneur background, but also one where you've been working on this for a long time. What's your background? You know, where'd you grow up and how did you get this the bug to start businesses and to work on businesses and to be such a dynamic entrepreneur? Yeah, so definitely. I was born and raised in Kuwait. My parents are from India. They were working there. I was a refugee of the Gulf War. Almost accidentally blew up the refugee camp in Jordan. I traveled as a refuge in the Gulf War in the s and then, after a while, made my way to Canada. Studied Engineering and then my girlfriend at the time, now my wife, she got into med school in the US and she wanted a med school and second year of Undergrad supersharper. So I just chased her and moved to the US after I finished engineering, and so my first job was in product in in New Jersey and then I worked in in sales and marketing. When she got residency in Philly, I work at another startup in sales and marketing and then after that Alex, my cofounder CEO at boast, he called me and he's like, Hey, we should start a company. I don't know what, but we have a few ideas. Will start this one in the test wedded space and we drift on a few things together. But it's just that man that inside the drive to build something right. Like I'm an engineer, I studied engineering and I'm a creator. There's different kinds of you. There people who like to do new things and there are people who like to take those things, when there are a certain point at take it to the next level. I'm the kind of guy who likes to just do new things. So everything at boast. It's been a lot of fun for me because I always...

...end up doing new things. One was getting to product market fit, launching our first sales, then handing it over then like launching a new market, launching a new product, that sort of thing. Everything new is is fun for me. I like to like sort of consider myself like a pioneer mentality person. I like to get it from like to a point where it's product market fit and then hand it off to somebody to scale. Do you feel like your risk threshold or risk tolerance is informed by your upbringing, by your childhood, by moving around, by coming from, you know, being being an immigrant into Canada in the US, or where you true be? Because there's just so many people that would like to describe themselves as being a pioneer. They want to think that they take risks, but they never can seem to take that first step, to leap into the void. What where do you attribute that, that instinct inside of you from? Definitely so. Here's an interesting thing there. I come from a background which is risk averse, traditionally right. People from India, Middle East their risk averse. It's it. Do you have a path, which is you go to university, you become a doctor, engineer or some profession that pays you repeatedly for years to come. And that's that was my wife's upbringing to is like you go to med school or else. And so my mom said the same thing. I wanted to be a chef. My Dad's are executive chef, retired now, and my mom said we're not paying for chef school. She she's like better go get a profession, be an engineer or doctor kind of thing. Right. So it was very risk averse mentality. The problem was, I think it's just in my DNA here, right. I was always doing crazy things growing up. So my I I just felt like you learn more from experiences then from books. And it's and the second philosophy was life and in business is a marathought. It's not a it's not a sprint, right, and so for me it doesn't matter if it's the journey and Lissa, it's not the journey, it's not the destination. Is the companions that matter the most. So I didn't really finish high school. What I end up happening was I skipped my high school exams. I didn't have a high school diploma and...

...and my mom was like you better go to engineering. So I applied for engineering school and I don't really was this. Where was this? Geographically? This was in Canada, right in in close to Minnesota and Theater Bay, and they said we need to see your transcripts and I said there's political undress going on in Kuwait, so I don't have any transcripts here. And they followed up for one semester and then they never did and I graduated with engineering without a high school diploma. But all my life I've been I've been more drawn towards creating new things and I just not interested in looking at things the way they're done and trying to scale them all right, like there's always something bugs me. There has to be a better way and after doing a few stints in product and growth, I decided to go out on my own and do this with Alex and it's been it's been a fun ride. So talk about in some sense, I guess you've moved from consulting to software. Tell me if I got the dates wrong as as listening, but I think in two thousand and sixteen. But you mentioned is a two thousand and two thousand and twelve that you've been working on some form of boast. Is that right? That's correct. That's a long time. Yeah, it is a long time. And and what do you so talk about the different phases of evolution, because I know one of the things you're passionate about is how do you make sure that you have product market fit before you try to grow more and and how do you know? And what are the mistakes you make when you think you have product market fit but maybe you don't? Yeah, definitely. So one of the key things is, while I did boast, I also did automatically, which was intercom before people, like I didn't know intercom existed. This was two thousand and thirteen fourteen. Alex came up with the idea and said, hey, sales but customer service agents are in and dated. Let's build a let's build a Bot, and we ran some touring tests on twitter based on Jet Blues in our actions, and we said Wow, we can respond ninety percent like real human and so we build this this product call automatically. And so was doing Bost, doing this trying to see, like which one, which one hits. The thing is we didn't want to raise money, otherwise we would have probably build software and they wanted boast. Just...

I'd been a part of a few bad experiences where, although I was not a founder, I was on the exact team and the companies that I raised money didn't didn't make money. The founders didn't make money. And and exit is not always a mean definition of success, because if the founders and exacts don't make money and only the investors make money, then it's not considered or success. I didn't want to raise money and so we did this product automatically. Then that failed and then we were running out of we didn't have the money to feed both founders, at boast as a consulting operation. So I I did speak easy. They're doing that founding team there. I think one of the key learnings along the evolution is this. Customers want an outcome. They want don't want a product, they don't want to service, they don't want your fancy I or dashboards. Customers want an outcome. Deliver them that outcome by any means possible early on. Then you can automate the rest of the stuff if you have customers that are paying you money. And that was that was a big key learning. So to give you one example, out of automatically, what end up happening was we did all our customer development, early outreach. When we saw it, when we saw that it was a good idea, we could we could automate responses to jet blue at like ninety percent. I started calling all the big CPG companies because of customer service, and as I talked to them I realized, Hey, if they had a magic wand, they would want a solution like automatically, because it would plug into their customer service platform and automatically respond intelligentlyre real human. Then we said okay, let's go about now building this at scale. And we had asked all of them what customer service tools they were using and most of them were using like Oracle sales force. And when we contacted Oracle sales for they're like, Hey, we got this huge approval process. Is going to take you like a year to go through security review and build all of this stuff. So I've got this is the depth of a start up. So I ran to Zendsk's conference, cornered their API go and he's like yeah, you can drop an APP in our market place tomorrow. And because it was named with an a and the the value prop was so seemed simple. Intelligently respond to... a real human automatically right or automatically respond like a real human. So we get thousands of people signing up from Zendesk, thousands and thousands of people signing up, and one thing was a consistent theme. It was a it was a widget in the right side bar. When a cory comes in, it pops up and automatically response. Everyone was like stop, stop the automated responses, you're responding and Gibberish, and so we made it editor prove and then the feedback was basically hey, it's not like ninety percent accurate, it's like forty percent accurate. And that was the key realization and and also a similar mistake we made a speak easy and I'll tell you dive into it in a second, but all my customer development we did for automatically wasn't large enner price customers. When we couldn't get into sales force or or Coles market, you know, integrate with them, we ran to Zend USK and we didn't even think or realize that Zendes customers were like sub thirty person companies back in thirteen fourteen. They didn't have enough data for you to create an intelligent response. So customers want an outcome. If I know, knew then what I knew today. No, today I would have build the application such that we're just gone to everyone and said, what are the most common, like fifty most common questions you get asked and create a decision tree and build a bottle like that, which is very popular right now, and you know through inner common whatnot. But we had the opportunity to do that. So we got dejected. Back then in are like a, now, how we going to figure this out? And, as engineers are also arrogant, you're like, a, I should do this. Your customer does not care about your ai or your product. They care about an outcome. Deliver them that outcome very quickly, and so we stop that project. Then we you know, I joined speak easy and speak easy. When we launched we had fifteen tho users. Okay, think about it this way. Back in two thousand and fifteen, you got fifteen thou users at launch and every one's going crazy. All this is gonna get like slack, like adoption, running a bunch of facebook ads, mobile ads, and then you realize they're like no, this thing is going to fail because when you looked at the profiling of the users,...

...they were butchers, bakers and candlestick makers. Are All kinds of people. Bernie Sanders was using the sales calling APP to run election campaigns and there were pastors using it to do run prayer meetings, and I said we got to shut down free, like each free user is costing as like in cougs, like thirty, because we were built on top of twilio. Yeah, we have lots and lots of people signing up every day because we running lots of mobile ads. But the bottom line is this. There's no ideal customer profile. We funded by sales force who are sales calling APP. What is going on? Right, you got to shut down free, but they mindset around the exact team was, hey, you know, we can get slack like adoption. It's going to not enable us to raise money if we shut down free, no one's going to pay. Fought it, fought it, fought it. Finally we shut down freemate. It paid. WHO stuck around three hundred sales people and we built the product for the salespeople. Right, everyone is looking to get a job done, right, as a salesperson, as a marketer, whoever, as a consumer of services and tools, you're looking to get a job done, and if you don't have an ideal customer profile, it's very hard to figure out what jobs you're trying to help people through, right, and so we focused on the salespeople. Why it shutdown was by the time we did that whole Rigamarole, we ran out of money, not enough traction to get to the next round of funding. So the key realization, both from automatically and speakeasies, focus on one kind of customer. Like we a very, very like narrowed down to a point of who is the title, what geography, what industry and whatnot, right. I guess a salesperson at CPG is very different than a salesperson at a Sass start up, right. So having that nail down, because then you can dominate the sphere around them, like where they eat, breathe during sleep? What are the tools they buy so you can partner with those tools? What events they frequency? You can go there. What books, magazines, blogs they read? You can dominate the sphere around them. So a lot of those learnings.

We use that bost because at boast were like our mission is to help innovative companies become successful. We're founders, failed founders. We sell two founders and CEOS of fast growing technology companies. And because of that we're like, okay, as a fast growing technology company, yes, you need nondolude of capital, arend credits, but what else do you need? You need sales, you need marketing, you need scaling, hiring, you need all this other valuable information. And so we started attraction as a community, and traction this turn into now a hundred thousand subscriber nonprofit entity where we bring leaders from various facets of business to share advice for free. And that community alone has not only led to a significant portion of our growth. Met Our investors through their met a lot of our key customers through their met folks like Max, cofounder of for founder of sales accor through their jason them can through there. We launched when we launched boast AI as a when we've pivoted from consulting to software in two thousand and seventeen, we launched at saster in two thousand and seventeen because of the community we built through traction. Jason Limpkin gave us a free booth. So all of that right. And I had the other fundamental belief, or a thing that I learned through that process. Was One is the focus. Focus on your customer and let that be your primary guide. All your decisions to flow through that. If you don't have your ideal customer profile, it's very hard to build a business like one kind of customer getting one kind of value coming through one one kind of channel. At least when you're starting out, it's very important. The second thing is a value of community. I've will come to learn that your product or service will not become a commodity if you build a community, if you fall in love with your customer and help them succeed beyond your product or service, you'll build a lifelong relationship with them. So those two things have been a very huge guiding principle for us at boast and bootstrapping to over it figures in revenue and then raising money when we didn't need the money. Why did you raise money? We...

...always felt that if you can turn one into three or four or five, we should take the money. I think the timing was right. The market was heating up with the pandemic. Everyone needed money and we had got to eight figures in revenue with for sales people, no marketer and one big community. It's a small deaf team, mostly Customer Success Center operation. So you're like, now is the time. I mean globally, if you look at already, credits alone is two hundred billion. If you look at all business Teska, it's over a tillion dollars and it's a painful, laborious process. And we said, Hey, if you raise money, we can turn one into like three, five, maybe ten. We need to we need to do this. If whether you know, are we going to build a sort of small operation? That yeah, you know, eventually you'll start stagnating, right, if you don't have money, you won't in a way, because you got to feed yourself also. So we said, if we take money, will be relaxed and we can grow the business. When I say relaxed, meaning personally, you know that. Now there's one stress off your head, meaning putting food on the table. So now you can invest in the company and grow it. And as a bootch as bootstraft founders, we did a lot of great things to build a profitable business to eight figures, and so now it's like, let's put fuel and blow this thing up. So that's why we raise I fundamentally believe that we can build a multi billion dollar company here. I think it's interestingly you just said some investors, because I think fundamentally what you're referring to is perhaps taking some of the money that you raised and selling pack and dairy or, you know, taking some of the proceeds from the fundraise and putting that and creating financial security for yourself and your cofounder, which I think is a wonderful thing. There are some founders, that are some investors that worry that, you know, if you take too much of that and put it into your personal bank account, that you will be less incentivized. But my perspective is that you'll probably be more incentivised because you view the business less personally and so you can make longer term, more...

...strategic decisions without worrying that you're jeopardizing your nest egg. What's your what's your thought? You know, if founders today tell you that they're not taking even a small portion of the table like at a post a stage, they're lying. Okay, I fundamentally believe their lying because I've talked to dozens of dozens of investors and there are so many people who reached out to us and right now the VC pitch to founders and the post a world. It's just that hey and will let you take money off the table so you can be risk yourself a little bit. Right. So I don't know. I think taking a lot of money off the table, you may as well sell the company. here is you need to eat as founders, especially when your boot trap. You've starved and not eating and you've taken jobs on the side and what not to run the business. You've not taken a market rate. If you can pay yourself and and have a comfortable life personally, then you'll do well professionally. If you're miserable at home because your wife snagging at you because you're not bringing money at home and then you're also working obscene amount of hours, you're not spending time with the family, you're stressed out right, like your mental health translate into physical health and vice versa. Rights is, if you want to kick ass at work, you got to be able to kick ass personally. If you don't, you're going to burn out. And I had a near death experience with covid also. So last year pandemic hit and we all double down on working. Then the race takes a lot out of you and I told my wife and kids will celebrate when the when the a round comes together, we close twenty three million bucks. ANNOUNCED IT December ten. And then I get covid and I'd make nothing out of it. And then JEN second I'm in the hospital on oxygen and Ivy Support and pretty much get taken out for most of January and I only thought to myself one thing like wake up and smell the roses. Stop and smell the roses. Do a little better every day. If I would have gone then in January and a lot...

...of people who are in that position pasted right. I got covid pneumonia. I just regretted one thing. I wish I could go back in time and spend more time with my family and kids. My wife, being a doctor, couldn't visit me in the hospital. We had a twenty four hours zoom on. I had like two nights where I forced myself to stay up thinking I'm going to die. What good are you to your business or anyone if, like you, don't take care of yourself professionally right, then you're miserable at work. You take it out on the people at work. It's just it's not a good dynamic, right. So I think I think it's for the biggest outcomes. If you see across the board, look at all the public companies, most of the biggest outcomes are founder led and founders can have good outcomes if they're not personally taken care of. Agree, and I'm so sorry that you had to go through that and I'm glad that you pull through. You know, there's a light at the end of the tunnel of the story, so I'm glad it worked out. Lloyd, we're almost at the end of our time together and what we like to do in this very last section is sort of pay it forward and hear about people, ideas content that have deeply influenced you. Could be books you've read, could be people that you've interacted with. It have been mentors or inspired you. When I frame it like that, what comes to mind for you? Definitely. So one thing I'll share. I think learning is one of the most important things in life, and the second thing is being open. Right. I think openness is this single most indispensable enabler of growth, and so a lot of people, you know, they try to even if you look at companies like hiring has turned into this sort of gatekeeping. Right. I want to add cultural fit and you got always think about like adding people to your culture. And so I've always been this lifelong learner. The issue is I hate reading, and I don't know who will empathize with me in the audience here, but everyone talks about books and books and read hundred books and I feel miserable every time I hear that because I hate reading. Then I'm just reading. Yeah, every time I hear that from people like recommendations how to be successful.

But I came up with a hack for it. Good, I'm so and my hack is every week I interview too smart people that I respect a lot for an hour like this and I pull and I then I edit the video myself and post it on our Youtube Channel and I learn a lot just by asking questions like this two people, and I think that's been a great hack for me for the last few years in terms of learning. So I learned by interacting with people and I learned by doing and I learned by asking a lot of questions. In terms of specific people who come to mind Jason Lemkin. I've learned a ton just from speaking to him. Listening to him reading his stuff, because it's just short like blog posts. They're very to the point and I feel like he's like a sort of founders angel in a way, because every time I'm going through a problem, I feel like he's post just POPs up in my linkedin feeds. So great stuff. They're Jeff Lawson at tuillio phenomenal. He wrote this great book recently, ask you or developer, which is good. Although I don't read much, I interviewed him and also did read his book, so that POPs into mine. I think just a lot of people are shy. They feel like if they ask people for help or advice they're troubling them. I see men's value in cold emailing people. We built this huge, huge network just from cold emailing. The first traction conference we did, I cold e mailed all the speakers and then use the social proof of those who are interested to follow up with the ones that are not, and then one shoe drops and the rest follows right. And so it's the power of asking, like give and also ask for help when you need. I think that's that's really important. So if anyone messages me, I respond to a lot of almost all my emails. I don't have an ea or anything like that. People message me on Linkedin, I respond on I take time if the volume is high, but I do respond and I try to be thoughtful in the answers I provide. Well, I love that and that's a natural segue. What is the contact in front? What is your content conformation of people want to reach out or learn more or maybe...

...become a customer? Yeah, definitely. It's Lloyd Double Loyeed at Boast Dot Ai, and you can also look me up on Linkedin and I'm there and on Youtube. If you just Google search traction coffee'll find our youtube channel. Like today I interviewed far on, who's the VP of engineering at Chop Offy, and I'm going to edit that video myself because I learned a ton there and I want to hey, did I miss anything? It's say for me that for me, that hack is better than than reading a book. Awesome, Lloyd, thanks so much for being on the show. Will Talk to you on Friday for Friday fundamentals. Definitely, hey, everybody, SAM's corner or great conversation with Lloyd Lobo. Really love it just talking to people that think broadly metaphorically conceptually, that have experience doing things that have failed and risen back up, and Lloyd's a perfect example. You know, he's tried a bunch of other companies. He worked at this company speak easy. He worked at a company called automatically. He talked about, you know, product led growth is such a popular thing right now, except when you're built on top of Tuilio and every time somebody wants to use your free product, Ulio's charging you money but you're not making any and so Lloyd talked about his time at a Bessemer back company, sales force, back company called speak easy. That really formed a lot of his ideas about how to make sure that you're focused, that you're focused when you're building your company. And so, you know, he talked about how speak easy was not focused enough. They had all different kinds of people using the free product. They shut it down and focus just on building a solution for sales people, and that focus is really cool to what they're trying to do with boast at Ai and I just thought that idea is a really interesting idea. You know, also the self awareness. You know, Lloyd brings a lot of self awareness to the conversation talking about how some people are pioneers and some people of settlers. There are benefits and disadvantages to each. I don't want you to out there to think that, you know, settlers is necessarily a pejorative because, frankly, pioneers are the people that die much more frequently. They get all kinds of terrible diseases on their way to California and to to the West from from the east. If... had to go through Panama and you didn't have enough money, then you are hiking through the jungle. Sometimes get malaria. Otherwise you had to sail around the southern tip of South America, which was terrible. There was no trans Contin on a railroad. So, you know, being a pioneer is an all it's cracked up to be. Think about the first people that are going to go to Mars. Those people are going to have a terrible quality of life and they're probably going to get radiation poisoning on the way. So yes, one day Mars will be a beautiful place to live with, you know, an atmosphere that we created through some kind of shaken bake colony, as they say in the movie aliens. But until then, it's going to be a terrible place to live. So being a pioneer isn't always the best you take on more risk and you risk more as a consequence, but when it pays off, it pays off big and Lloyd is a shining example of somebody that helped build a bootstrap company and then took money when it was the right time to take money and Accelerat into growth. So I really love that conversation. Now, before we go, thanks again to our sponsor, outreach. Outreach is the number one sales engagement platform and you can learn all about them at outreached Outeo. A couple other things. If you haven't signed up for on, least think about at may eleven through thirteen, we're focusing on how to win all together in a new sales era very special guests, including Guy Ras and carry Lorenz. Go to unleashot outreached Oudio for more information. If you want to reach out to me, you Ken Sam at Revenue Collective. Thatcoms my email address or linkedincom forward, slash the word in for Sam f Jacobs. Okay, really good talking everybody today and I'll talk to you next time. God bless you.

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