The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode 210 · 4 months ago

Increasing Revenue on Cloud Marketplaces with Tackle

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, we've got Don Addington with us. Don, a veteran sales leader, is the Chief Revenue Officer at Tackle.io. Don and Tackle are helping software companies get onto cloud marketplaces which enables them to sell their product to companies easier. Join us for a great conversation about sales and growing your company with Tackle’s cloud go to market strategies.

What You’ll Learn

  1. How Don went from being a recruiter to be a driving force of the growth of Tackle
  2. How you can accelerate your company’s sales cycle by using Tackle
  3. Ways that your email can stand out from the many emails that clients get from competitors by being meaningful

One, two, one, three, everybody at Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the sales hacker podcast. We've got a great guest on the show this week, Don Addington, the Chief Revenue Officer of tackle tackles, a really interesting company doing great things based out of Atlanta. But I think they're they're a remote organization. I just know a lot of people from the Atlanta area that work there. But, uh, and they help. They help software companies get onto these cloud market places and that enables them to sell more of their product to companies more easily. So it's a really interesting category. It's a great conversation. Uh, Don as as a veteran sales leader, and so let's listen to this conversation. Before we get there, let's hear a word from our sponsors. This episode of the Sales Hacker podcast is sponsored by pavilion. Pavilion is the key to getting more out of your career. Our private membership connects you with a network of thousands of like minded peers and resources where you can tap into dozens of classes and training through Pavilion University. Make sure you take advantage of the pavilion for teams corporate membership and roll your entire go to market team in one of our industry leading schools and courses, including marketing school, Sales School, Sales Development School and Revenue Operations School. Unlock your professional potential and your team's professional potential with a pavilion membership. GETS STARTED TODAY AT JOIN PAVILION DOT Com. Once again, that's joined PAVILION DOT COM. This episode of the Sales Hacker podcast is brought to you by outreach. outreaches the first and only engagement and intelligence platform built by revenue innovators for revenue innovators. Outreach allows you to commit to accurate sales forecasting, replace manual process with real time guidance and unlock actionable customer intelligence that guides you and your team to win. More often, traditional tools don't work in a hybrid sales world. Find out why outreaches the right solution at click dot outreach, dot io forward slash thirty MPC. That is click dot outreach, dot io forward slash thirty MPC. This episode of the Sales Hacker podcast is brought to you by verisnt high performing revenue organizations have a plan for growth. Get Yours with varrison. Set Smarter Goals and design territory is to maximize your revenue potential. Create incentives...

...that motivate the behaviors needed to achieve your goals. Use Ai driven insights to make better decisions and outdo previous performance. Learn how verissent can help you create a predictable growth engine. At verisent dot com forward slash sales hacker. Again, that is verisent dot com forward slash sales hacker. Hey everybody, welcome to the sales hacker podcast. It's Sam Jacobs, your friendly neighborhood host, and I'm really excited today to have on the show Don Addington. Let me just tell you a little bit about him before we chat with him. Don has spent the past twenty years helping individuals and organizations adapt to massive changes in the I t industry. At tackle, Don and team have built an entire business around helping software companies execute on their cloud go to market strategies by leveraging the hyper scaler's cloud marketplaces to drive significant revenue. The tackle team sells the majority of their subscriptions via the marketplaces and has helped more than three D and fifty software companies benefit from the tremendous push towards the cloud. In just three year, tackle has grown to Unicorn status, with funding from Bessemer Andrees and Horowitz and Co to management, owing much of their success to their strategy and, of course, the talent of their leadership team. Don Welcome to the show, Sam. Thanks for having me. I'm I'm excited to be here. We're excited to have you. So you're the chief revenue officer tackle. I just gave you, know, a little bit of an overview, but always want to give the leaders an opportunity to describe their company. So, in your words, tell us about tackle. You know, what do you all do? What's the what's the origin story? What's the impetus and why? Now for the company? Sure, Um, so you did. You did a great job. You know, we're absolutely a very fast growing company, which I think is indicative of of just sort of the way that sales is evolving today, and I'm sure we'll circle back and touch on that a little bit. But, UM, yeah, it's been it's been a really fun ride. We're up to actually about four hundred and fifty customers now. That's probably the only slight correction I'd make in terms of going through the bio. There Um, but we really started the company, Um, you know,...

Dylan Um and Dylan Woods and Brian denker started the company in in, you know, late Um and, as most startups, you know, kind of looking for exactly where they could provide the most value and marketplace, and specifically the aws marketplace at the time I was just starting to emerge as a place where individuals and companies might go to search, find, try and potentially buy software. Right and Um, they had kind of started out early helping companies by hand, you know, get their products on the digital shelf at aws. And they found that there was a lot of messy work to be done, a lot of undocumented, um, technical work to be done or poorly documented. And then, you know, really, even if you could get your product on the shelf, you were tying up time with engineers and product folks, which are some of the most valuable people in a software company. Um. And then, you know, how did you turn a listing in a marketplace and the revenue? Um, so the you know, the first idea really was, hey, let's take away as much of the pain and toil and overhead of getting into these marketplaces. And again, it was just aws to start out with. Um, so that you can get rapidly to helping sellers sell, and that's really our North Star, Um, at tackle today. We've grown from, you know, just getting people into a marketplace and and listed to supporting aws, Azure, G CP red hat kind of the major hyper scale cloud marketplaces. Um, we've we've really moved from you know, getting your product on the shelf is sort of the get in trouble for us, sometimes, sort of the uninteresting part of that equation. Uh, not saying about our business is an interesting dying you bastard. Well, it's only interesting when it turns into revenue. I mean. So there are definitely things you want to do to set yourself up for success, but tackle has kind of, you know, moved from just getting folks listed and...

...taking the time in the overhead of way out out of the equation too. Hey, let's really help you sell and let's help you get the revenue engine cranking. And then once that happens, there's a whole lot of operational change and an improvement that's necessary, and that's really where we've started to spend you know. So the rest of our time is let's make your business, once it's cranking, really well look congruent with the rest of your business. Right. So can you take a deal from quote to cash and not totally blow the minds of your finance and sales ops and you know all those folks in New York? Is it? It's always struck me, but tell me if I'm wrong, one of the because I you know, prior to running pavilion, I was working at a big machine learning company that was trying to sell stuff to big enterprise financial institutions, all of whom had relationships with aws and G C P, and for me it felt like such a great idea, that the idea of tackle, because it's we had so much trouble demonstrating and sort of confirming our status as an appropriate vendor and it felt like, well, maybe if we could get into the marketplace through a d aws that would be an easier way to get to credit suite or Deutsche Bank or some of these major financial institutions, because we would have all already we we would cross one security and compliance and, uh, you know, architecture requirement through being in the marketplace and then that would be the easy on ramp into all of these enterprise accounts that we wanted to sell to. Do I have it right in my head? I think so, and I think that's actually there are several value propositions of these cloud marketplaces. And you know, just my origin story. I couldn't spell marketplace when I started with tackles. You know, I kind of was vaguely aware that they existed. Maybe some developers were swiping credit cards and trying tools as they were, you know, building applications or whatnot. But, UM, the way that marketplace exists exists today, is really, you know, a facilitator for you to go do business with, you know, your your your ideal customers, right, and in a lot of cases those are large enterprises. Increasingly, even small and medium sized businesses...

...are already doing business with aws or Azure or GCP and being able to, you know, land your software on their bill is is super helpful. Um, and I think one of the things that doesn't get talked about a lot is, yes, if you're in the marketplaces like there is some degree of legitimacy there. There are requirements, there are you know, you do have to go through, Um, some security assessment work, you do have to get you know, there's several things that you need to do in order to actually, you know, kind of qualify to get your weares on the shelf, if you will. Um, and I don't know, like in a world of enterprise software where marketplace isn't really hey, I'm looking for software and Gosh, I found it and it's legitimate because it's in aws. It's really more. Hey, I'm talking to my customer. Their budget sits largely with the cloud provider that they're doing business. They're spending more money on AWS and they're spending on the rest of their software combined. You know, can I land on that bill? Can I? Can I get access to that budget? You know, those are those are the bigger drivers of enterprise business today. But if you're talking, you know, sort of that organic product led growth, you know, search, fine, try by Um. Yeah, the stuff that that's in there is, you know, it's been vetted, Um and uh, and there is an air of legitimacy there. So you know, that can be an important factor, depending on who your own too. Yeah, well, it's it's a great business. congrats on all the success. So how how did you get into it? You know, what's your background? What's your many people have non tradit. You know, almost every sales leader, marketing leader I interview doesn't it's hard to take a class in sales in college. So most people come from widely different backgrounds. What's your background? Did you get to this role? It's funny. I read somebody I can't remember. I should remember. I should be better at remembering where I read. This is on Linkedin the other day and somebody had a post that was basically like, you know, if you're a consultant, you're in sales, if you're a CEO, you're in sales, if you're a you know, all all the different roles that are actually sales at the end of the day. Um, and yet we don't teach it so like that. That's a that lands well with me. Um, we certainly don't.

Um, and I, like most, I think a lot of the people in our profession, like you, kind of fall into it right. I don't know a lot of people that went to school that were like Hey, I want to be a sales rep you know. Um. And so I kind of fell into it. You know, I had a lot of interests in college. I wasn't like, you know, I didn't go to school be a doctor. Hit I was like, I don't know what I want to do, you know. And so I had a lot of different interests. I actually, you know, graduated with Penn State. Graduated Penn State and, Um, I started out, um in the recruiting business. Um, you know, basically recruiting software sales reps, and it was kind of through that process and I fell into that right. It was kind of, you know, friend of the family and I needed a job and starts the thing, and so I started doing it and, you know, just kind of all of a sudden was like hey, you know, these folks that in these positions I'm recruiting for, like they're making a lot of money and I'm so on them on it. And a lot of times people would be asking me like hey, you did a really good job explaining this to me, like why aren't you in sales? Um. I also come from a background of software sales in my family and that was almost a negative right, like my dad's been in software his entire career. My stepmom same story. And so, you know, of course, as a kid like you want to aim for the opposite. So to everybody else around me, it's no surprise I landed where I landed. But but to me it was like no, I don't want to do that, it's not interesting. But I end up really getting into it, Um, you know, commencing other people to to take software sales jobs, and then all of a sudden I was like yeah, why am I not doing this? Um, and that's how I really got into the into the business. How did you what were some of the key kind of career inflection points before you got to tackle? I mean this, I hope. I would assume this is probably a pretty bit of highlight. But you know, what were the key sort of stepping stones that led you here? Yeah, it's all a build right, Um, whether you plan it or not, like it just kind of all builds to Um.

It's all, at least for me, built to where I'm at today. Um. I was having this conversation with, Um, with a friend yesterday who's Um looking at a career change and Um, we were we were kind of talking about my my career trajectory and I spent the first, Um, excuse me, fourteen years uh, of of my selling career in the information security space, and it was a really interesting time to be in information security. I WORKED FOR INTERNET SECURITY SYSTEMS IN ATLANTA. I S S um under you know Tom Noonan and Chris Klaus Um. Tom Is actually uh an investor in tackle today. Um. That was the formative job of my career and I that's where I learned how to sell and I ended up working, you know, there for three years. I did, you know, eight years at secure works before they were acquired by Dell. It's man Tech S Guy Hid. I really played across the security space and I played across a lot of different domains in the security space and it was, you know, I think or twenty, somewhere around there, that I was like, you know what, I'm kind of bored with this and I feel like I've been in selling insurance for the past, you know, fourteen years and I can't point to like real value that I've delivered from my customers. Nothing against any of those companies right, Um, but at the end of the day it's like, Hey, what did X Y Z company do for you? And it's like, I don't know, we didn't get hacked. Um. And so that was my first inflection point was I think I could take everything that I've learned and go do something that's more impactful and more interesting. And so I completely reinvented, uh, you know, myself in in my career in the software space, and I took a job at pivotal Um, which at the time was a nascent company formed from a lot of pieces and parts of different companies under the e M, C Um and vm ware umbrella, and I learned a ton about building modern software and platforms that support modern software, UM, and really how large enterprises uh, inefficiently built software. Uh,...

...and it taught me probably more than I'd learned in the in the previous fourteen years before that, and that was a major inflection point for me because it was like hey, I think it's really important for me to continuously reinvent myself and to go do these things, because you grow by leaps and bounds. That makes a lot of sense. What do you think? You know, thinking about the evolution of sales. You know we are, we may or may not be in a recession right now. We're a lot of uncertainty. What do you think? How has sales changed over the last, you know, Fifteen, twenty years that you've been doing it? What are the key changes? I think the key changes Um and it's actually one of the things that I'm that I'm super excited about, you know, being a tackle and building a team at tackle, is having the opportunity to build the next generation of software sellers, because you and I have been around for a minute or two and, uh, we don't have the best reputation, you know, as a as a profession. Right, uh, I'm gonna tell you about all the things I've done. Yeah, plenty of stories about me too. Uh. And and so, you know, I think that's, you know, one opportunity that that's been super exciting is, you know, helping to embrace some of this change and helping to shape, you know, the software sellers in the future. I think you know today, Um, it's how how is the entire cycle changed? Right, it's not just selling, it's, you know, your buyers are generally coming to the plate much more informed now. And it's no like this isn't a massive revelation. It's everywhere. Uh, you know, your customers have, you know, fifteendition different touch touch points your prospects do before they get to you. Um, and so you're dealing with a relatively well informed prospect. You're also dealing with a ship ton of noise. I can't tell you how many emails I get every day that are poorly written, that are not actually like the solutions, are not beneficial to me, Um, you know, they're ill targeted, uh, and it's just like it's awful, right. and that's the noise that we deal with today because we have email, we have a phone in our hands,...

...you know, we we as sales reps, do the lazy thing and just bombard thousands of people at a time hoping that, you know, one of my emails gets through and gets signal. Um, you know, it's created a ton of noise. So in a lot of ways, like sales has gotten a little more difficult. However, I love it because it forces creativity, it forces thought, you know, like the route, I'm just gonna go do these three things and I win. That's going away. How do you balance the exactly the point, right, the tension of you know, outreach always talks about like, you know, humanization, personalization at scale, and it's it's a nice thing to say, but it's it's also it's just not not possible, uh, like. How do you balance the need to, you know, grow super quickly and reach out to lots and lots of people and you know, use these tools and there's an arms race where everybody's got the same tools. Everybody's got sales after or outreach or groove or something like that. Everybody's sending thousands and thousands of mails and it feels like the way to win the war might have to be also sending thousands of emails. How do you coach your reps to adjust to this world and make sure that the messages they're putting out there are more signal than noise while still hitting your growth targets? Is a contradiction? Yeah, it is. Uh. This is what makes it uh, an interesting, challenging and difficult game, right, because you have to balance those things. And you know, sure there are still many bits of of of the process that are at numbers game, but they can be a smarter numbers game. And I think you know that at scale bit is the bit that's in question. Um, you know, all this is a little stage dependent. Right you know where we're at right now. Um, you know, we've grown from a hundred and fifty employees at the beginning of the year to u two sixty, you know, like we've added a ton and Um, you know, to go to the next step, in the next step and the next step we'll we'll grow even more. And so, you know, I am just a big Fan of...

...do you wanna, you know, a choose only one way to try to find customers? Like, you know, I'm just gonna email and I'm gonna send a thousand emails this week, you know. Or would your time be better spent to do a little bit of research? Narrow that down, right. Everybody has territory, everybody has segmentation. You have focus, Um, I think that's very important. Like, look at who you're who you're targeting, narrow it down and try to do higher quality, less spread, right, Um, and be thoughtful and look at the themes that are resonating. And I think that's what an outreach or a sales loft and those types of tools, you know, give you the ability to do is, once you start to hit on a formula, you can start to automate that formula. But the beginning part of that is it's not just some dumb formula that came out of book with with no thought. That's what everybody's doing. You know, you can. You can show up with some thought, do a little bit of research, you can learn a ton about people before you ever reach out. And if I do that with, you know, fifty prospects and spend my time getting a little bit more information, a little smarter on who they are and who their company isn't what their needs might be, you know, I can personalize a message a lot better. So I am big into personalization and I do think. Yeah, of course it breaks at scale. You know, you can't do a thousand of those in a week. But I put your thousand random, poorly written, terrible emails up against fifty well researched and targeted messages and you tell me who comes out with more leads at the end of the day. I couldn't agree with you more. What Are you coaching your team to do? Or, you know, how are you thinking about navigating? You know what we are coming up against this you know, maybe it's a recession, maybe it's some kind of protracted economic malaise. You know, who knows? But what do you are like to steal that? We're not in a recession, so protracted economic relaz right, it's it's it's like it's just a blah, it's just it's uninspiring, but it's not...

...necessarily the world is ending right. Like, What Are you coaching your team to? How are you how are you thinking about adjusting any of your tactics, if at all? You know, are you thinking about doing that? Um? I think it's just like leaning into more of the message that we've been leaning into from the beginning. And this is maybe part two of your answer to what's changed in sales, Um, and that is I think we rush so hard to sell our solution and our features and our benefits and, you know, get to the demo and you know, like if you slow the hell down for two seconds and you know, have a great conversation and really learn about the person, the company, the challenges. I who you're talking to, Um, and it's up to your company that you're working for to put out great software that's gonna work, that's gonna meet needs, Um and and that's gonna, you know, really, at the end of the day, impact customers. So let's assume that that's happening. Like your biggest obstacle is, how do I get this ship bought right? How can I help you actually buy, because I'm gonna assume that I can get you to the point that you actually to buy my software. Now, the hard part is it's not one person deciding that they can buy something. There's ten people. They all have different opinions, they all read different you know, I read g two, I read Gartner, I went you know, it's it's difficult to navigate these sales and being easy to acquire is a killer feature and it gets missed right so early in a sales cycle, especially when you're in a time like this. Hey, I want to let my prospective buyers know we're easy to acquire. How do you guess buy software today? You know, do you like to go direct? Are you buying through a channel partner? Are you do you have a large bill with a WS or G C P or Azure, and being able to land on that bill, you know, may help us skip the line and reduce time and legal or reduce time and vendor management and may help us, you know, get cloud budget, where cloud budget wouldn't be available if we didn't land on an aws bill, for example. And so where we're at right now is the companies who of...

...great solutions, who are also easy to buy and, you know, can make it easy to buy for their for their customers, are gonna win and I have more and more cros calling me every week going hey, you guys have been in our year talking about this marketplace thing for a long time. You know, in the past week I've had three prospects tell me they could buy me faster or immediately if I was in a WS or GCP or Azure. Do you get a percentage of those sales? By the way, what's the business model or is it just like a flat subscription fee to to get onto it? Yeah, it's uh, it's and that's been another kind of, you know, Fun Fund bit of the job is sort of looking at how we evolve that strategy over time. And I'd say in the early days, you know, Um, there was a lot of evidence that marketplace was going to be a preferred way to buy. Now I can tell you, you know, over the past, you know, two years, tackles seem more than two and a half billion dollars of software purchases flow through our platform Um and purchase of our our customer software, and I can tell you that, you know, roughly thirty to fifty per cent of the pipeline that our customers have, the targets are going after after have already bought in a marketplace. Um. So there's a great signal now, as opposed to when we first started, like, not only is this happening, it's happening, you know, more and more, and it's becoming a predominant channel to to purchase through. And you know, today we're a flat subscription. You know, we take a look at, you know, what's your product portfolio look like? What marketplaces do you want to be in? What features do you want from our platform? Um, but it's really, you know, it's a flat subscription based on those things, Um. And so, you know, I think it's a it's actually a very advantageous model in the in the early days, as you're just getting into marketplace and starting to drive revenue. There's more and more signal, Um, you know, from our especially from larger customers with huge portfolio as a product, that you know, hey, the straighter aligne we can draw from tackle helping us and helping us drive revenue,...

...the more interested we are in different ways to engage with tackle. Um. So we're constantly exploring those things. We do something with startups right now, for example, where the price for our subscription is very low and we could actually get more and we have gotten more Um. But we decided to make it a very low entry point for startups because it can take a year, a year and a half to really get the wheels moving and the flywheel going through marketplace and we want to help them get there, um. And so what we've done is said, hey, here's a flat subscription to our platform. You know, use everything that you might need. We're gonna help you get to success, Um, and we'll start charging you more and more based on the number of transactions you do until you're up to a more, you know, kind of traditional subscription level with us. So we're always exploring with you know, kind of how do we iterate our model to meet our customers where they're at. I love it and and uh, I appreciate it and feels like it makes a lot of sense. Um Done. We're almost at the end of our time together and one of the things that we like to do before we go is sort of pay it forward a little bit. And you mentioned a few folks you know that we're early employees, like one of the guys as an investor in tackle now. But when you think about it, could be books that you've read, it could be you know, it could be Ted talks, you've heard, it could be great bosses or mentors or investors. But when you think about big influences in your life, uh, that you think we should know about, you think those are these are important people that you should that we should know about. Who? WHO COMES TO MIND? What kind of ideas or people or books come to mind? I mean, a lot of them are are personal to me. Uh and uh, I'll talk about some, some books and and some podcasts and and things. Um, there's a lot of people along the way who have helped me to continue to help me. Who I'd say our mentors or influencers. Um, you know, I mentioned earlier. You Know My my my dad's in the software business. Um, he's been a salesman, a CEO,...

...you know, in the software business for his entire life. I've learned a ton just by osmosis. Uhum there. Um, I mentioned, you know, Tom Noonan who's been a great mentor to me. Um, you know as as one of the the founders of of I s S. Um, you know as somebody that is fortunate enough to to commnce to invest in tackle and uh, you know kind of early on. Um, I've got a great friend by the name of Chavon mcfeeney. I I um. We brought Shavan on board at a pivotal to to build our our transformation practice and I learned a ton about organizational transformation Um from from Chavan. So those are some of the you know, the personal people in my life. Leo spiegels on our board and I've worked with him since back in the pivotal days as well. So those folks, I'd say you have really helped me along the way. Um. I think when I was building the team or starting to build a team at at tackle Um, I really loved Daniel Coyle's book on a Culture Code and culture is something that's just it is all the way forward in my book, and you don't build a great company without great culture. You want people to come and buy into the mission and where we're going and we're changing the way software is bought and sold and that's a great mission. But you've got to have a great culture and I thought there's just really great tidbits about what are the features are, what are the what do you see that it's common across the highest operating teams and how does that translate to culture and Culture Code was just a great book for that, Um, and then you know other podcasts that I listened to. I'd I'd say I love Grit with Juven over at Kleiner. Um. I think just some some great guests, some great insights. I love listening to other people's journeys and it's largely C r o CEOS things like that. So those are those are some of the ongoing influences and kind of shotgun staff for you there. I love it. I appreciate it, Um, and and of course I would expect you to reference one of your parents. Are both of them? We all do. You'RE gonna be in trouble if you don't help. Yeah, Um Don if...

...folks are listening, their intrigued. Maybe they want to figure out if they can be a customer of tackle and maybe they want to work for you. What's the best way to get in touch? How do you prefer people reach out? Yeah, I think let's go back to my comments on you know, all the noise and the email and and things like it. Email tends to get lost anymore. One of the best ways to to reach out to me is via linkedin. I'm pretty active on Linkedin. Um, I like to try to give people, you know, a little exposure into how we're thinking a tackle, how I think as a leader, um. So I try to try to put stuff out there as much as possible. Um and UH, although my inbox there is also not exactly a slow trickle, it's something that I that I can, I can pay much closer attention to. So if you look me up Don Addington on Linkedin, Um, that's probably one of the best ways to to connect with me. Awesome. We'll do that. And Don it's been great having you on the show and we're gonna talk to you on Friday for Friday fundamentals. Awesome. Looking forward to it. Thanks so much. S This episode of the Sales Hacker podcast had three amazing sponsors. The first is outreach. Outreach the first and only engagement and intelligence platform built by revenue innovators for revenue innovators. Go to click dot outreach, dot Io, forward slash thirty NPC were also brought to you by pavilion, the key to getting more out of your career and role in sales school, Sales Development School and Marketing School, and our upcoming recession education pack including selling through an economic downturn, marketing through an economic downturn and leadership through an economic downturn. LEARN MORE AT GIANT PAVILION DOT COM and, of course, varrison. High Performing Revenue Organizations have a game plan for growth. Learn how arrison can help you create a predictable growth engine at verison dot com. Forward slash sales hack. One two, one three, hey everybody. Sam Jacobs, SAM's corner. Love that conversation with Don Addington. Um just a great a great seller. Like many folks you know, gets into the sales industry...

...and Unorthodox ways, was a recruiter first before he became a software salesperson and Um and now is helping, you know, drive the growth of Um. It's really interesting new category that that tackle embodies, where it's helping companies get onto these cloud marketplaces so that you can just accelerate your sales cycle, you can get into enterprise clients and customers more easily. So I really like that conversation and also, you know, I think don mentioned that. You know, now more than ever, we all received so many crappy emails, so much crappy correspondence, and you can it's it's actually sometimes nice. It's Nice to compete with folks that are doing it really poorly, and so I just would encourage you think about, you know, when Don's comparing fifty great prospecting researched emails to thousands enabled by some you know, sales engagement platform. Um, really think about you can stand out, you can be different, you can look different. All you've got to do is a little bit of homework, a little bit of thought, a little bit of effort and and make it meaningful, bring your full mind to it, really imagine these people that you're reaching out to and what might resonate with them, and I think if you do that, you're going to see really high conversion because you're competing against people that are literally putting no thought into it at all. So those are those are my thoughts. Um. Reminder, if you want to reach out to me, you can Sam at joined Pavilion Dot Com, where you can find me on Linkedin. Of course we're helping. You're giving five stars to us on the on the itunes store or spotify or wherever you get your podcasts, thanks to our sponsors, and we'll talk to you next time.

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