The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

190: How to Control Your Internal Brand


In this episode of the Sales Hacker Podcast, we have David “Hersh” Hershenson, Chief of Staff at, a 20-year veteran of the high-growth world and one of the first 200 employees at Salesforce. Join us for a candid conversation about leveraging feedback to understand your internal brand.

What You’ll Learn

  1. What your internal brand is
  2. Seeking feedback from your coworkers
  3. Why it’s important to understand what people say about you
  4. How a mentor and a professional network can set you apart

Show Agenda and Timestamps

  1. About David Hershenson &[2:28]
  2. Hersh’s background/Salesforce years [7:12]
  3. Tips for setting goals of the right size [12:00]
  4. How to manage your career in the high-growth world [16:24]
  5. Building your internal brand [20:19]
  6. Paying it forward [27:41]
  7. Sam’s Corner [31:01]

One, two, one, three, three, everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the salesacker podcast. Today on the show we've got Hirsch David Hurshinson, the he's a father, but most importantly he is the chief of staff at tray. I don't know if that's most importantly. That's another related fact specific to this audience. He has the chief of staff at Trade Io. He's been a twenty year veteran of the high growth world. He joins sales forcecom when I had just a few people and it was also part of the acquisition of Yammer by Microsoft. So great conversation and he talks all about managing and navigating your career. Now, before we get there, we've got three sponsors on the show. The first is outreach. Outreach is the first and only engagement and intelligence platform built by revenue innovators for revenue innovators. See their sales engagement platforms of sales intelligence platforms, but there's nothing that does both unless it's outreach. Outreach allows you to commit to accurate sales forecasting, replace manual processes with real time guidance and unlock actionable consumer intelligence that guides you and your team to win more often, traditional tools don't work in a hybrid sales world. Find out why outreach is the right solution. At Click that outreach dio for thirty MPC. That little thing in my throat is because what a strange you are. I'll click that outreach dio for thirty MPC. Makes Perfect sense to me. That's what you can learn more about outreach. Second, Sponsors Pavilion. Pavilion is the key to getting more out of your career. A private membership gives you access to thousands of like minded peers, dozens of courses in schools of pervilion university and over one thousand work books, template scripts and playbooks to accelerate your development. This December, pavilion is partnering with the Ecology to Plant Fiftyzero trees and try and remove some carbon from the atmosphere. That's fiftyzero trees. For every member that's referred by another member will plant two hundred and fifty trees. So help us plant fiftyzero trees this holiday season and sign up using a friends referral link. Finally, FIG yard. BIDYARD is the best way to sell in a virtual world. Whether you need to connect with more leads qualify, more opportunities are close, more deals. FID yards video messages make it easy record your Webcam, your screen or both to make prospecting videos, follow ups, product Demos and other communications that drive virtual selling. Drivid yard for free by signing up at vidyardcom. Forward slash free. That's an easy url. Vidyardcom forward slash free. I remember that one. Good job, tyler LASSARD, head of marketing for VIDYARD. Let's listen. My conversation with herships a great one. Hey, everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the SALESACER podcast. Today on the show we've got David Hursinson. David is the chief of staff at a company called tray dot io. He is a many year veteran of the software and technology industry. He's worked it over from fifteen person companies all the way to thousands of folks. He's been through two IPOS and a one and a half billion dollar Microsoft acquisition and he's based in the San Francisco area. David, welcome to the the show. Thank you, Sam. It's a pleasure to be here. We're excited to have you. So we start with your baseball card. We said your name, but in your prep doc. You mentioned that you have a nickname.

So just does not everybody call you David Hershenson? Now I am I'm officially known as Hirsh. I got that nickname in the early points of my tech career and so now, wherever I've gone or my current the current people I work with like that's how I go by. So feel free, Sam, to do the same. We'll do hers will do. I'm a quick study. Tell us about trade ioh one of the things we like to give you an opportunity to do a sort of picture company. I've been hearing a lot about tray, but from your perspective, what is trade do? And then you can give us a sense for where you are and your growth journey. Yeah, I mean what trade io does is we solve a business problem that's existed since the beginning of SASS, where we're, in essence, an integration platform that allows our customers to automate any business process the way they want to cross their technology stack. So it's one of the things that got me excited, as a twenty year SASS veteran, to join an organization that that WHO's problem is that we solve is only growing as more companies purchase more and more cloud technologies are going to test to that. Whereas tray, in terms of its kind of growth story, you can, you know, you can answer that in any way that you want. Number of people, Revenue Range, your you know, money raised. How would you frame yeah, so we were now over three hundred people globally and sort of half the companies in the US and then the other half is is in London, where are three cofounders or from? We've raised over a hundred nine million our last series, see, was right, well, I guess November of two thousand and nineteen before covid hit, and we've been growing at a very good clip and and it's been an exciting trip, journey so far. It's incredibly exciting. And so you you are chief of staff and that role has a myriad of different definitions, but tell us this the scope of your responsibilities at tray. Do you have formal departments reporting into? How do you how do you think about being effective in your role? Yeah, so I actually I don't have any direct reports. The person who I work for is our chief revenue officer and he's one of the three Co founders. And so about a year and a half into being here at tray. I created this role to do three things. One, to serve as a strategic advisor to the founders as well as all of the company leaders, to sort of manage internal projects. Our CEO has recently described me as the Swiss army knife of the sales go to market organization, where really just take the top priorities of our cro and he delegates those projects to me so that I can ensure successful completion. Because the the third thing that I do in this role is it through my three and a half years in history being here, I've maintained and created a bunch of cross departmental relationships that enable and drive revenue success. So I do know that it's... know, I get this question a lot when talking to people outside the company and even internally, like what, what do I do? And you could talk to ten of us and we all sort of do different things. But that's those are the three main objectives that I've set out when I created the position and got this got the sign off from our CEO and Ciro to actually go do it. So I love it. This job, the the chief of staff job as I understand it these days, is often the training ground to coe. Is that how you not that you're gunning for that position at trade necessarily, but you know, is that? Is that sort of part of your career goals as to ultimately, you know, become part of the sea suite in some way? Yeah, absolutely. I mean I think at the end of the day there's companies reach a certain phase where they've done a great job of scaling but then, in order to take themselves to the next level, they need to institute a lot more operational rigger where accountability comes into play to be able to you gone out and you've heard a great team and there's a lot that you need to go execute on and it's really one of the the jobs of a senior executive is to lay down the the vision, but then to hold your team's accountable to ensuring that they that they actually execute on that vision. Well, son, how did you get here? You know, tell us a little bit about your background. I mentioned in in your in the introduction. You've worked at, you know, small companies, fifteen person companies. You've been through two IPOS, which is amazing. You've been through a billion and a half dollar acquisition from Microsoft. Give us some of the highlights of your career and you know, when we were chatting offline, you mentioned originally from the East Coast, but now you're in the bay area. So walk us through a little bit of the journey. Yeah, so about twenty years ago I moved to San Francisco and interviewed with a little startup called sales forcecom with there were less than two hundred people. Never heard of it. Yeah, and that was I was the only company I interviewed with, and boy am I glad that I did because pretty much, you know, I spent a good seven years. They're you know, from the early days of like twenty five million in revenue to over a billion and taking the company public, and that just it was just a phenomenal experience which I've did this day, still look to create. But what it did was it opened up and my network, because every job that I've had since then it's been because of the people that I worked with there and it developed a relationships and good rapport and that, you know, as my company or as my career grew, which is a matter of reaching out to these folks to take me elsewhere. So, you know, started off there and sales and sales development moved into various leadership roles for both str and sales teams. And then some of my other successful wins, and I haven't you know, not all of them have been successful, but you know, the ones that I like to tell her my time at Yammer, which was at a price social networking. That's the acquisition. That was the one that half billion dollars start up, you know, founded by David Sacks and you know, there was a lot of sales force DNA there as well, and that was a phenomenal...

...ride that ended way too soon. And then I spend time at Zen desk, which was also think my first or second day was when we ipoed, and so just spent some time there and then, you know, got came across tray. So I just had been introduced to the founder, the founders, and was really looking for a place where culture was important and I wanted to enjoy the people that I was working with. And, you know, other than sales force, where I spent those seven years now that I've been a tray for three and a half, I've never worked it's my second longest stint at any company. So I've seen of you know, I've seen a lot of assess market grow from the days, you know, when Larry Ellison said the cloud was was like fiction, and it's just it's been fascinating to me to see how the industry has progressed and I feel really lucky and fortunate that I got in on the ground floor and it's just been one one hell of a ride. Since I want to talk about sort of to to entities. One is the the individual human being in the second is the company. Maybe we'll start with the second. You've seen a lot. You sales force when there's just two hundred people. Of course, now you know, I guess somebody was saying they're going to do a hundred billion an rr alone at some point in the future. Crazy, it's crazy, Yep. And then you've probably seen, you know, some of the ones that you haven't touted, that haven't worked, especially if the longest you know, this is the second longest stint. So when you look at companies that work versus companies that didn't, experiences that were successful versus not, and thinking about the company, what do you see is the themes of success and what do you see is the themes of failure, if there are any. Yeah, I mean I from a success standpoint, it mean why you got to start with? Certainly product market fit and whatever it is that you're selling and touting. There's a need and a business problem to solve. But I think the biggest distinction to me is companies that can execute versus not and you know, executed as simple as you have a goal and you hit it or you don't, and there's a lot of drama and excess that could occur at any different company. But it's those things that that offer up distractions against being able to execute on the goal that hurt an organization's ability to to succeed. So I think about the successes that I have had where we've grown and we've hired really good people and we've instituted good process and we've continued growth, uphorting to the right in terms of revenue. But some of those were, you know, the organizations that didn't succeed were it was just sort of that lack of folk us, the lack of being being caught up in the drama and not being able to successfully hit your goals. That that that I've said, well, you know, it's it's probably time to look look elsewhere. When you think about goal setting, the so that you know you could, because there's an argument to be made that like maybe it's okay if all of the goals are, you know, big, Harry audacious, if they're all stretch then maybe getting close to...

...them still pulls the company further than setting them so low that you can consistently hit them, but that maybe you're not being ambitious enough. How do you balance that tension when you're thinking about setting goals for things? You know, I run a company, and thinking about churn, thinking about what should revenue be, what should they are? Are Be? You know, are we okay if we get very close to it? Because sometimes in my brain as the CEO and we're break even. So we're not burning capital either. So but I'm thinking, you know what, I'm okay if we get within five percent, I don't mind. But I know that I'm nervous about building a culture, to your point, that is one that sort of accepts mediocrity. Yeah, yeah, and I when it comes to goal setting, I'm and I think we've gone through this exercise recently as we plan for next year. It's like we had the goals have to be achievable. They have to be attainable, but they also we have to push people for the stretch goal to achieve and, you know, for your point, like, I think there are a few things that you can look at to make the big ass audacious goal that is that seems unachievable and you go forward. So that's that's important. But from a goal setting perspective, I think you can't make it so unattainable that it just it drives resentment from the team and just that type of behavior which becomes negative. Those goals and most you have to be able to get close, you know, and there is some room for for not being able to hit it, but it can't. But you still have to drive people to push past what they think they can do. And I remember the passage reading Walter Isaacson's book about Steve Jobs and you know, there's there's a whole slow of information about him and what you've read, but the one thing that always took with me was, you know, Steve Jobs didn't seem to be a very nice individual to his employees. Right, but did it really care? But what his employee said was it's he could he could like like manifest greatness from everyone around him and they weren't really sure how he did it, and maybe that's just what his secret sauce was, but that that was always amazed me. Like you don't have to be, I tend to be. I tend to consider myself like a really nice human being, like and I developed a good relationship with a lot of people that I've worked with and in the industry. I don't consider myself an asshole and I don't think I could ever do that. But if you know, to think about working around in that kind of environment where is mean, as he was, these people said he was, but what he was able to get people to achieve is fascinating to me. Do you think it's worth it for me personally now? Because I could never, I can never be that type of individual to test people in that way. It's just not in my DNA. And I've had the opportunity to work for people who I would view as assholes that I would never work for again. Like it's just it's not me. Like I'm sure there are people out there that can, that can handle it, it's just not it's not in my nature to want to be around that kind of environment and so I've, you know, chosen never to pursue those types of organizations...

...where where it is. And you know, that's why I love the startup world so much. In a way it's like I, and I saw this when I left sales force in two thousand and eight and it was a much I mean it's much bigger now, but I don't want to be a cog in the wheel. Like I like being part of fast growing organizations where I can have a say in a perspective and help and help shape where the organization is going, versus sort of like every every you know, quarter is the same and it's like, what have you done for me lately? Yeah, and to your point, you know, I think there's a big argument to be made that not working with acts assholes and maintaining your values, you can still build a great company, because I think that's so that our Steve Jobs would say, you know, who cares whether I was an asshole? You know you're using you're using iphone ten right now, aren't you? And you know we did grilla glass and all that other stuff, and it's like that's true, that's true, but there's other companies that have been built that aren't to be do you what people think the Mark Benny off? I don't know, but anyway, I think it's an interesting perspective. You mentioned, you know, let's talk about your career and sort of the career, career advice for people, because you you have, you know, Yammer, sales force, tray, these are all these are all a plus companies. How do you think about when you look back, you know, the lily pads, as you jump from one lily pad to the next and you string it together into a narrative that's incredibly impressive. What do you attribute the success to? If you're giving advice to listeners, what advice would you give them about how to navigate and manage their career so that they can, you know, one day be like Hersh? I love the question, so thank you. Yeah, I mean it's it's why, I mean, I've always taken mentorship and coaching very seriously and why I spent so much time of the sales development world working with people who are earlier in their career. And so, I mean there's a bunch of lessons one and I wish somebody had told me, like, told me these things when I started, because I've, as much, as I say, like it's good to have a mentor. I wish I wish I had one long time ago, but I mean the first thing was look at your brand, and we talked about the external brand that you see on Linkedin, of course, and all of the education programs and podcasts that have been developed to that topic. But to think about your brand internally, because as companies grow, and we know that. You know I've been twenty year veteran and I've worked in a bunch of different places. I think what new hires and people who are early in their career don't realize this like that brand is important, so that I've worked with several people at three different companies and I would happily work with them again, and that's based on the brand that they built working with me in the past. So that's one thing. The second thing, and I also wish someone had told me this and I would have gotten to success a lot fasters, especially being in sales like you need to operate your career like you would as sales cycle. You got identify the decision makers in the organization that will ultimately be the ones to promote you into that next whether it's like a step up from SMB to mid market or taking that first first leadership role it's like you need to need to figure out...

...who those people are and then figure out what they're, what they're what their challenges are and how you can help them succeed there. The third thing is it's really important to early on invest time and energy and building out that professional that work because, as I said to my second point, it's the people that I've worked with before successfully at other companies. I would happily work with them again and it's all because of the the quality work that we did together early on. The fourth thing is never burned bridges. I can't tell you the number of times ten years from ten years past, I'm still getting back channel referral and and reference request for people that worked for me. I I don't I don't think people realize that component. And so if things didn't go well ten years ago, you know, if someone were to ask me that all important interview question of would you work with this person again, I would still say no. And so just be careful there. It's like the reputation and decisions that you make early in your career will impact how how your career goes many years later. And then the last thing I'll say, and I know this is sure other people have said it, but especially in fast growing startups, change is the only constant. Like if you're in high tech and you can't embrace change, or if that change bowls bowls you over like a huge rock and you get sucked in and into the drama, like get out a tech, because that's what that's what technology is like. It's constant change and you have to embrace it and stay focused on what's within your control and just know that the company that you work at and what it looks like today, it did not look like that a year ago and it will not look like that a year from now. And so how can you evolve an adapt to grow with the organization? Because it's it's going to you're going to be required to. I love all of that, but I want to as they say, we have you noticed how? I don't know. It's just been recently everyone's saying double click on a, double click on that. Let's double clickly's double click. That's double click, though. You know, everybody talks about brand and you mentioned building your internal brand, and one of the things that I've noticed is that I'm not always aware of what my internal brand is. How do you figure that out? You know, sometimes people are saying, Geez, I thought you were such a Dick Because, you know, you had such a stony face demeanor on our interview. You're actually, you know, you're a Dick, but not quite as big a dick as I thought. Like, how do you manage your internal brand? How do you figure out what people think of you? How do you modify change your brand if you started on the wrong foot, you got in a fight with somebody by accident when you two weeks into the job, and now you're going to take yourself out of a hole. Yeah, I mean, I'll say it's hard. It's not. You know, it's not an easy task and I didn't realize this until, I guess it was back when I was a Yammer,...

...when I was managing a pretty large team that I actually worked for the first time with an external coach, and one of the things that she did in the beginning of the engagement was did a three hundred and sixty degree it's like a like interview, where she she talked to people who reported to me, people who were my peers and then people who I worked for, and the most like impactful information that I received was the feedback that I got or that she got from my bosses around how they perceived me and what my shortcomings were. So, you know, for example, one of the things that was told to me, and this was hard, was at any time I'd walk into a leadership meeting, it was like I wasn't there, like I never spoke up, I never contributed, and that was as painful as it was to hear, it was like the most impactful thing that helped propel me to well, to like being able to now, you know, lead teams, walk into a room with other leaders and make myself known. Had I not been given that piece of feedback, and I wish there were, I wish we were in a world where that kind of feedback could have been given to me directly by that individual, but the fact and the fact that I had to pay someone externally to do it was so well worth it. But like that, that kind of thing I wish companies would do more of so that that feedback across all layers of the organization. You can. It was such a learning moment for me and that's, you know, a way for me to think about how I was building my brand unsuccessfully clearly. But you know, ever, every company that I've worked at since like it's been top of mind and I keep that at the forefront to help continue to build that relationships in the brands of my brand. Internally, there's some parts of feedback that there's some things you can change. You know, hey, yeah, day of you should speak up more in meetings. Fair enough, I can do that. There's some of the I found. This is for me personally. I'm wondering if you have thoughts that some pieces of feedback I get. I've just gotten them so consistently over some same as you, you know, roughly twenty years. Yeah, there's a point at which I just gotta it's not that I don't want to get better, it's that there's they seem to be somewhat fully ingrained parts of my personality that I'm just going to have to let people know about, as opposed to saying I will become a different person. I won't. I don't disagree like they're they're you know, we're all built in certain ways and there are definitely things that I wish I could change about myself that I can't. But I think we're where you're. The right way to handle that is to be up front and transparent with the folks that you work for and like. These are the things that I know I do...

...well. These are the things that may frustrate you, these are the things where I need help improving, and that's just to me. That's such I'd love to have those conversations all day with my teammates and my co workers where the we can, we can feel and share that we're in a place where we can have that. There's no like the artificial walls where everyone wants to get better and everyone wants to do a good job. But to try to bring those barriers down and to be more vulnerable and share what you're true weaknesses are in a room full of people's that they can help you get better, I think is would be a game changer. Yeah, I mean there has to be. It is a game changer. There has to be trust, you know. Yeah, otherwise it's hard to do. One last topic before I'm before we ask some questions about your influences. You mentioned, I guess you know, your chief of staff to a cro you have been. You come from a go to market background. You've been doing this for a long time. What's most interesting to you about how going to market in that can mean prospecting and sales development. That can mean how you manage the sales process. That can mean pricing and packaging. But what's most interesting to you about what's changed over the last two decades that you've been doing this in terms of, you know, sales and go to market process? Well, I think what's sorry I say am I go to more what hasn't changed, and it's like the miss alignment that you see across organizations. You know, you have sales going after one type of cusps like prospect you have marketing funneling another are you have product building for somebody else. Like that to me is, you know, as long as I've been around and through my time's working at companies, but then I also spent did a short two and a half year stinto the consulting firm that got bought up by Gartner called Tobo. Or work across range of different organizations and you know, to me the companies that did it the best. We're all aligned to having a true understanding of what their ideal customer profile look like, and by that I mean like the ICP is, the attributes of you look at your current customer base and then you go target more people that look like them and it's rare to have all go to market organizations like all firing on all cylinders, all going after the same thing, and it just sort of it takes time and it could be months, it could be years to finally get everyone better aligned to ensure a much more efficient go to market machine. Then when you swear them where you start at, from a start up position. So I mean, I share that insight because to me that's what I'm finding most interesting right now. Is like, as we have these discussions internally a tray and with other companies that I've that I've worked at or worked at, it's like honing in on that. And then every decision that you make as a leader is geared towards driving more customers that fall within your ICP. You know, for example, if you sell to SMB's, you don't want to build a sale strategy that's focused on enterprise and... don't want to go hire people with enterprise sales experience. You know, on a marketing perspective, you know, if you're marketing to enterprises, you want to take more of an account based approach versus a Lee generation approach where you're optimizing your search engine results and getting people in that way. And so all these things, like the the tactical day to day things that you decide to do, it all gets driven by that, the focus on the ICP and ensuring that your teams are aligned to that, and then you can make really good, sound business descriptions with confidence, knowing like that's that's the North Star and that's those the types of company who want to tract. I Love Them. Hersh we're almost at the end of our time together and in the last little bit we like to we like to pay it forward, we like to know for the people, the books, the ideas, however you want to frame it, you know content, so to speak, content and humans that you think we should know about that helped contribute to your success, that you know that you think might be inspiring to us. It could be a former boss, it could be an investor, could be a great book you read. How are you want to frame it? You know, Sam, I appreciate the question and I was I was fearing this because I get this all the time and I, you know, as much as I say, read business books like I don't as much as I, you know, tell people listen to these podcasts. It's I'm bad at it, like I have not done enough to invest in my own success in career to like you know now and you know, and it's like I'm married and I have two girls, or nine and eleven. It's like, yes, I work hard, but pretty much everything I do outside of that is is my focus on them, and that's, you know, as I've gotten older, you know, I now realize when I think about like what's important, especially, you know, especially what's happened over the last nineteen or twenty months with with Covid the fact that we've all been together and got to know one another and are in our household like like family is first for me at this point, like everything else is this like a far second, and so that's where, personally, I'm investing my time and energy, is to be a better, better husband, better, better father, you know, more present, and I'm hoping that through that, like it helps me at work, of course. So I'm sorry, don't have a good answer for you. In terms of the podcast that I listened to, her loop, sales books. I've read it say sales books. Yeah, choosing, you're choosing that interpretation. I'm reading the book about, you know, Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland in the s. So you could you know, if it's good night moon, that's fine with me. Yeah, yeah, I mean I happened to. I like to get myself out of the business world and whether it be science fiction, you know, a huge fan of the marvel movies and I got the best birthday present recently. My eleven year old daughter finally said to me, just like Daddy, I'm I'm ready to watch them with you, so let's go, and it's like that to me is the best. Did you pull up like the website that shows you the chronologicalal order of the mcu so you...

...could watch them? Yes, SAM, so we have at we have Disney plus and they list them out in the mcu timeline order. So that's we watched captain America first and that's that's the order we're going to do it, and Captain America is the very first one. Wow, well, in terms of like member like a Kurd in the forty, is all right. Right. Well, yeah, the the timeline of where, of which, like what years had occurred and Oh, you're right, that's I mean, that's what that's what I'm referring to cool. Yeah, Hersh, it's been awesome having on the show. If folks want to reach out to you, maybe they want to work at tray, maybe they want to pick your brain being mentored. What's the best way to contact you? Are you open to it and, if so, what's the best absolutely, and I'd say just reach out to me on linked in. You know that's I'm on that constantly and it just yeah that. I'd say, look, connect there, reach out to me some of your so being an email, what have you, and I'm I'm happy to respond. Sounds Great. Well, thanks so much for being our guest on the show. We'll talk to you on Friday for Friday fundamentals. Thank you, Sam. This is a lot of fun. It really appreciate it. Hey, everybody, it's Sam Jacob's you listen to Sam's corner. Love that conversation with Hersh. Good person, good guy, great father, and he's watching. I think we talked about this, but he's he's watching all of the mcu in chronological order, meaning in the marvel timeline, sorry marvel timeline, with his children right now. So let's wish him the best. The first one is captain America, but that's not why we're talking right now. What we're talking about is what we talked about when we're talking about sales and his career, and something that just stood out to me. I mean, he had a lot of great nuggets, but one of them is manage your brand, both internally and externally. We hear so much about people saying, you know, manage your brand, and what they mean is post more annoy saying things on Linkedin. Definitely you should do that. You should definitely be more annoying on Linkedin. But that's not what he means. He means what's your internal brand? How do people think about you and what is the feedback that you are getting consistently that you should at least be aware of. And one of the ways that he he makes mention of that, as he says, he's still getting reference checks on people that I work with ten years ago, back channel reference checks, meeting these people. Do not know, and this happens a lot right you do not know how many people in the world have formed a narrow, trudimensional opinion about you and you probably do want to know that, or at least you want to be intentional about what is that opinion, and so one of the things that's very important what is your internal brand? You might find out your internal brand by receiving feedback from your peers. But if you don't know what something you can do. You can ask, you can go to different people in the organization and maybe it could, frankly, be a survey if you wanted to do that. If you have three hundred and sixty feedback in your organization, that might be a way to do it. But sometimes it's just asking people, it's saying hey, sally, you know we were in a meeting together. What do you think? How did I do? And maybe you lead with something a little bit negative about yourself so they can feel a little bit more open and honest about about being more critical rather than just, you know, a feuse has been positive, but I think, you know, I was talking...

...with a friend yesterday. Wouldn't be watching some football and and he had some concerns about how people perceive him. He's a CEO, and his therapist said, Hey, want it, let's do a reality test, let's go ask some people what they think based on the specific situation, and it's just it's just such good advice. Hey, if you don't know what people think about you. Ask asking a nice way, ask in a non aggressive way, but get some feedback. I'll give you an example from my life. I did a survey one time, many years ago. It's wild how consistent this stuff is. So the two things about me. First, you know I'm a great one too many speaker, one too many leader. But as my direct report, you know your professional development is a little bit choose your own adventure meeting. It's up to you. You get a I'm like a gym membership as a manager. If you I'm not going to do stuff for you. If you show up and you and you use me and you engage with me, I can give you good feedback. I can set you on the right course, but if you don't, you're not going to get a lot of value. And that's feedback that I know about myself and so it's what I can it's knowledge I can use to to build around. It doesn't mean I necessarily have to change. It might mean that I have to hire an incredible vp of people that invests in resources and platforms that help people develop, in addition to the work they might do with me as their direct manager, which is what I've done and and you seem as our VP of people. So there's ways that you can get feedback, but the most important thing is to know. Know what is the feedback, know what is the perception, know what is your internal brand, because right now, somewhere in the world, someone is saying something about you, and hopefully it's nice, but whether it's nice or it's not, you should know what it is. So that's my feedback. All right, thanks to our sponsors. We had three today. The first was outreach. They're the only people that are doing engagement and intelligence all in one platform. Right, really cool. It's there are revenue innovators. That's what they are, and they're so innovative. They've innovated in the URL that you're supposed to click. Click dot outreach dot io for its thirty MPC. Never that's great, that's remember memorable. Thirty MPC. Maybe we can make a MNEMONIC thirty miles per carrier. Thirty MPC. Never go above thirty miles per carrier. That's clicked dot outreach I oh, for its lash thirty MPC. Pavilion, help us plant fiftyzero trees. Sign up apply to pavilion by using somebody's link that you know that's already a member. That's the point. Every person that joins that's referred by another member. We plant two hundred and fifty trees. So if you want to save the world just a little bit and get incredible career and professional development, consider signing up through a friends link and helping US plant fiftyzo trees. And then, meanwhile, video is the name of the game. It's happening. Is the best way to sell in a virtual world. You see higher response rates, higher click rates, better meeting appointment's, better conversations going, and that's vidyard. VIDYARD can help you do that. Try videyard for free by signing up at vidyardcom forwards lash free. Thanks so much for listening. We'll talk to you next time.

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