The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 weeks ago

206. Turning Your Marketing Department Into a Revenue Generator

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, we've got Kathleen Booth with us. Kathleen is SVP of Marketing at Tradeswell, where she's on a mission to empower a new generation of digital-first marketplace brands. Join us for a great conversation about marketing and why you should be marketing to people who aren’t in the market at all, yet.

What You’ll Learn

  1. How Kathleen grew a newsletter to 30,000 subscribers
  2. How to turn your marketing department into a revenue generator
  3. How to keep key stakeholders excited about your long-term content strategy
  4. Why performance marketing isn’t effective

Show Agenda and Timestamps

  1. About Tradeswell and Kathleen [3:34]
  2. Turning a marketing department into a revenue generator [15:44]
  3. Keeping key stakeholders excited about a long-term content strategy [21:34]
  4. Performance marketing isn’t effective [25:19]
  5. Paying it forward [27:29]
  6. Sam’s Corner [29:25]

One, two, one, three, three, everybody, it's Sam Jacob's welcome to the salesacer podcast. We've got an incredible show for you this week. We've got cathleene booth. She's the svp of marketing at trades well, and we're going to have this amazing conversation about marketing and why you need to be marketing to people that are not in market at all. Not Talking about the dark funnel here. We're not talking about people that are googling but not telling you. We're talking about people that are not even buying at all because they are referring other people that are buying. It's a great conversation. You love to hear it and Kathleen truly is passionate and an expert on on everything that she's talking about around building a media company related to Your Marketing Organization that drives all of these outcomes and all of these results. Before we get there, let's listen to a word from our sponsors. This episode of the Sales Hacker podcast is brought to you by outreach. outreaches the first and only engagement and intelligence platform built by revenue innovators for revenue innovators. Outreach allows you to commit to accurate sales forecasting. Replace manual process with real time guidance and unlock actionable customer intelligence that guides you and your team to win more often, traditional tools don't work in a hybrid sales world. Find out why. outreaches the right solution at click dot outreach, dot Io forwards thirty MPC. That is click that outreach dot IO forwards thirty MPC. This episode of the Sales Hacker podcast is sponsored by pavilion. Pavilion is the key to getting more out of your career. Our private membership connects you with a network of thousands of like minded peers and resources where you can tap into of classes and training through Pavilion University. Make sure you take advantage of the pavilion for teams corporate membership and enroll your entire go to market team in one of our industry leading schools and courses, including marketing school, Sales School, Sales Development School and Revenue Operation School. Unlock your professional potential and your team's professional potential with a pavilion membership. Gets started today at join PAVILIONCOM. Once again, that's joined pavilioncom. This episode of the salesacker podcast is brought to you by fresh works. Have...

...you ever been in a digital sales room? Well, if you haven't, your sales team should be in one soon. Gartner and its latest report predicts that by two thousand and twenty five fifty percent of all enterprise be tob sales technology implementations will include digital sales rooms. Create an immersive digital sales environment with fresh sales. With fresh sales, you can develop digital customer journey maps into great advanced digital commerce capabilities and to be to be sales create unified experiences across touch points and enable visibility for your sales and marketing teams. See how thousands of businesses use fresh sales to shorten sales cycle and improve sales conversions faster. Get a free trial of fresh sales at fresh WORKSCOM fresh sales. Get a free trial again of fresh sales at fresh WORKSCOM. Forward Slash fresh sales. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the sales hacker podcast. Today we're excited to have on the show Kathleene booth. Cathleene is svp of marketing at trades well, where she's on a mission to empower a new generation of digital first market place brands. Prior to joining trades well, she led marketing at several VC BACK BE TOB SASS businesses in the ECOMMERCE and cybersecurity spaces, and was the founder and CEO of a digital marketing agency where she advised hundreds of companies and go to market and digital marketing strategies. Outside of work, Kathleen is the host of the long running inbound success podcast, which features interviews with top performing marketers, and was named one of the top fifty be to be marketing influencers of two thousand and twenty one by top rank. Kathleen, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me Saym I'm excited to be here. We're excited to have you. So we like to start with your baseball card. Really, you know, I gave I gave everybody the bio for you, Kathleen booth. But when we say trades, well, we don't know. Many people don't know what trades will is or does. So we want to give you an opportunity to describe the business. What is trades? Well, sure, we like to think of trades well as the operating system for real time commerce, which really just alludes to the fact that ECOMMERCE is grown incredibly complex and we provide brands with one platform where they can see all...

...of their sales, marketing, operations and finance data, normalized down to the skew level, and we surface actionable insights for them to take the steps necessary to make their business more profitable. How old is the company? Where are you and sort of the growth journey? And you can tell us when I was founded or how many people are are are, but how do you think about like giving us a sense for the the growth trajectory of trades? Well, yeah, we're still pretty early stage. We were it in two thousand and nineteen and we're now up to about forty five people. We closed a fifteen million dollar series a round last year and so this is our year to scale. We're hiring aggressively and for us, the other the other piece of scale is just very aggressive plan and road map for integrations, and integrations are like shopify integrations and all of the other ECOMMERCE platforms. Yeah, right now we've got shop of five, big commerce, Amazon, target, Walmart, Alta, beauty, facebook, Google, Clavio and and there are others that probably aren't worth going into, but gotten a lot done in the last few years, a lot more to do. Well, let's let's learn a little bit about about you as a person. I read your bioh obviously incredibly impressive. But you know, so few people come into sort of like the CMO Sep marketing world from a traditional training or background. How did you get into marketing in the first place? How did you enter the startup world, the High Growth World? Give us the sense, for you know where you come from and how you got here. Sure, so, I do have sort of an odd career path. I actually did study marketing, but I also studied international politics. Those two don't normally go together. I had majored in political science and college I went to Grad School to get a masters in that and part way through that Masters I was afforded the opportunity to do an MBA and I thought it was a really good it was a good chance for me to study some things that were a little bit more practical in terms of building a career, and so I did choose marketing. Having said that, that...

I spent the first, you know, ten years of my career following Grad School in International Development. So I really want that route first, and I worked with international aid organizations advising developing country governments on contracting out management of their water and wastewater utilities. which, how does that land one in marketing? Right? The the path back was basically I was doing a ton of travel. I think I went to fifty four countries and during my time doing that job it was amazing. It was incredible job to have when I was young and single, but I got married and wanted to have a family and couldn't do what I would have needed to do, which is, you know, pack up and go to Africa for three months and leave my husband with a baby. I didn't want to do it and there was no way I could have done it, and so I had this early midlife career crisis and my husband and I decided to start a marketing agency. He was in a tangential space and it seemed like, you know, a good way to get back to that, that degree that I had studied years before. We had that business for eleven years and somehow we're still married. Isn't it true that you work on different floors though? Well, so when we had that company we always we did work on different floors for a while and then when we had another office, we literally took offices in the polar opposite ends of the suite so that we would see each other as little as possible. Not because we didn't like each other, but because we recognized very quickly that the less overlap we had in a work environment, the healthier it was for overall relationship. We you know, we could have things to talk about at the end of the day. So, yeah, sounds very smart. How long have you been married at this point? Oh my gosh, we got married in two thousand and five, so ten years. Yeah, yeah, congratulations. Well, so you've got a you've got a formula that seems to be working. So anyway, I enter. I interrupted you, but I yeah, it was. It was a great experience and you know, it's hard enough to find business partners you trust, and so I was lucky that the person I...

...was in business with was my husband and I trust him implicitly. We did decide to sell that company. In two thousand and seventeen I was sitting on the boards of a number of tech companies, startups, and I was also on the board of the Maryland Technology Council, and I was seeing how scalable you to be, tech was and thinking what the heck am I doing in an agency, you know, with a professional services model where growth means hiring and talent is hard to come by, especially we were located in a secondary or tertiary really market. So we sold to a competitor and I actually went there for two years and spent six months in a sales role, working the pipeline that I brought over there with me, which was a phenomenal experience. I actually found out a really good at sales, which was kind of fun, I believe. Just didn't want to do it forever, but I think to now. I always say every marketer should work in sales for a little while. It makes you so much more empathetic. And then I was the company's first EPF marketing. I spent a year and a half doing that and the reason I stayed there because I didn't want to stay in an agency setting. But the owner had this vision of building a media company around the agency and that the entrepreneur and me really loved that idea. It felt like building a company within a company, and so I did that for two year, year and a half, and we really got some incredible results in that time. We grew top line revenue by fifty four percent in a year. It's like two hundred and fifty percent almost, and two years we built a community of five thousand members. We started a conference that had seven hundred people attending it, we grew website traffic to over a half a million visitors per month and we launched a newsletter that had thirtyzero subscribers. So we were able to really start to monetize our marketing, you know, and that's that was the coolest thing about that experience is that everyone was talking about marketing as a cost center and we were making marketing into a profit center, which really flips the script when it comes to then going to ask for budget. So there's a lot of fun great experience. I left there in two thousand and nineteen because I really did ultimately want to go in house and be to be tech and sort of that leads me to where I am now. I you know,...

...now I'm a head of marketing at trades well, and I do love the early start up stages and it's not for everyone, but I think because I own my business for so long and had a couple start ups during that time, you know, old habits die hard and I love that early entrepreneurial, high growth stage. Well, you and me share that, share that passion. So let's talk a little bit about about turning that agency into a media company. And I'm just curious you. How did you get thirtyzero subscribers to newsletter? What were the strategies? Where were the tips? Where were the tactics that you used? And I guess specifically, you know, one of the things that always comes to my mind is how do you develop I mean maybe for an agency is a little bit different, because agencies by definition, probably need to have a point of view, but how do you develop an interesting enough point of view as a company that makes stuff for people for thirtyzero people to want to subscribe to it? You know, it's an interesting question and have some so passionate about this because I just think the world is littered with horrible corporate newsletters. And when I went over to impact, that was the company where I was at the time, I was fortunate that I brought with me from my agency the woman who was my head of content, and her name is Liz Murphy. She's an incredible writer and content strategist and she came over with me and we decided to start this newsletter, and so we did a lot of research into what was happening in the newsletter world and at the time newsletters like the hustle were really just taking off and mourning brew was very early stages for that. And we also thought about what we liked in the newsletters that we followed and the conclusion that we came to was that it couldn't sound like a company. It had to really be in the voice of a person and it had to have a perspective and a point of view and some personality. And anyone who's ever met Liz no, she has a lot of personality. And so she took it on and we published three times a week. So we really thought of it more like a media newsletter than a company newsletter, you know, because traditional company newsletters you think, Gosh, I couldn't send more than and once a month or once a week if I'm...

...you know, if I've tons of volume. But in the media business it's the key the key differences. Media is about developing a habit amongst your audience and becoming a part of their daily or their weekly life. To really develop a habit. Like if anybody's ever read atomic habits or anything like that. To develop a habit you need frequency and you need consistency and the typical company newsletter doesn't get published frequently enough to hit the frequency mark. But to publish that frequently you really need to add a ton of value. You need to have something to say. So it was Liz would start every newsletter with a almost like a personal story or a perspective or an observation, and she developed a big following honestly, just for for herself. She it was like having a sub stack disguised as a corporate newsletter. What was her following? Like, I'm interested and did you ever were and you can these questions are both because I'm curious and obviously her ulterior motives, but like, what was the personality that she was cultivating and the point of view, and did you ever worry that it would run a foul of your more traditional brand guidelines or corporate guidelines? To the latter question, and now, I never worried. I mean she I had worked with her across two companies and I trusted her implicitly and she was just such an eloquent, beautiful writer and the personality that she cultivated was was a mix of humor, but somewhat selfdeprecating humor, and and real vulnerability, like she shared some personal stuff on there, but she's just funny and she's smart and she would share interesting observations about like she really likes classic movies and she'd Weave Things about the godfather in and you just you read it and you felt like you knew her. And I would say the person that that, the other person that's perhaps of more well known that does this very well as an handley, who was the you know who is the chief content officer, I think it, at marketing props and always weaves personal stuff into her newsletters and she's got this huge following. Its tremendously respected and you...

...just feel like she's your best friend even if you've never met her. And that's kind of what Liz was able to do while also weaving in a lot of company content. And is is list still doing this. So Louis has moved on and she is with a different agency now and she had she writes that agency's newsletter and she also has a personal sort of more like a sub stack where which is a little different for her personal brand. Do you worry that that that like there's creates like brand vulnerability, I suppose, or key man risks, so to Speaker, key woman risk, if one person is such a dominant part of like the media voice that you're trying to help companies build. Yeah, I mean I definitely think that that can be a factor and and I will say, you know, at the risk of giving away too much, I don't think the newsletter is the same now that she's left. I like what some of the newsletters like the Hustle and morning Brew Do, where they name their writers but they might have one or two and so you still know who's behind it. But there's a little bit of risk management at play there. But I will say there are certainly other newsletters where it's a single author with a big following and the company just finds a way to really make that person stay for a long time by giving them the job they love. And I do think with people like Liz when when they're writers, when they're building a following, a lot of it is about cultivating that environment where they feel they can continue to build their personal brand and you're giving them growth opportunities. And if that's the case, you know generally they'll stay for a long time and if they don't. What some companies have done is when that author departs, they keep them on in a consulting capacity just to write that newsletter. They become like a brand evangelist instead of a full time employee. That makes a lot of sense. So you know I've taken us down a newsletter rabbit hole, but let's expand it a little bit. So getting back to the benefits. So you know you built this powerful you. First of all, I guess one of the benefits that you articulated was that marketing became a revenue generator, not just a cost center. But talk a little...

...bit about the other benefits and then you know, the world has changed. The world of newsletters is changed. I'm sure the world of marketing has changed a lot since you first started doing this. What are the best practices that you can encourage other people that aspire to do exactly what you've done, which is turn their marketing department into a revenue generator and begin to lay the seeds for building a media company? What can they do? How should they think about it? Yeah, so I will start by saying that I really learned so much and was inspired by two books, both written by Joe Politze, who is from the content marketing institute. He wrote killing marketing and content INC and both of them are really about this idea, and so those are great places to start. But really beyond that, what I found when I read those were the books did a good job of explaining why this was a great approach and the value it could deliver, but they didn't really tell you how to do it, and so I had to learn that on my own. And some of the things that I learned, you know. One is that when you think about a media business like it can seem ridiculous to say that brand should do this, because we hear how the media business is struggling and traditional media is dying. What's so interesting is that media businesses are really good at building audiences, whereas marketers are really good at monetizing audiences, meaning we sell them stuff. Right, we might not build audiences that are as large, but we know how to sell them things. When you combine those two skill sets, that's where the magic really happens, because media businesses aren't is good at monetizing their audiences, and so in order to combine them effectively, you have to rethink how you approach content and the reason that media businesses are so great at building audiences that they do some let's call it transactional content, you know, news, news articles, things where you might read it and then you might not come back, but they do focus a lot on episodic content. And when I say media, you know you can think newspaper, but you can also think Netflix. And episodic content tends to build audiences over time. They get larger as you go, whereas marketers, traditionally, when...

...we would think about content creation, we would think about, you know, any book or a Webinar or a virtual event, and a lot of energy goes into producing those things, but then when they're over and when that Ebook is published, you might get an initial spike of interest, but that tends to wane over time, whereas publishing content tends to build over time. So it's a little bit. It starts with rethinking how you approach content and and thinking about serialized content and episodic content, things like, you know it literally the podcast serial as a great example. You know, there was a season and it changes every season. There are some companies in the B tob space that do that really well, and one that I would point to, which is a fantastic example both of doing it well but also doing it well on a smaller budget. is profit well. They've taken this approach and they're not huge, they're not massively well funded. I mean I think they're becoming bigger, certainly, but their founder, Patrick Campbell, was just convinced of this approach and so he did just sat and he created different shows and they've built a huge following. So that would be kind of one aspect. But the other is then how to create a flywheel around this, and what I've learned is that it's the content combined with the distribution, which in this case is like a great newsletter, and of course your web property community and then events and all of those things tend to reinforce each other and, taken together, do create a flywheel for growth if you're taking this approach. So walk us through that, that formula. So I'll go back to the example of impact, because that's really where I have the most fully flushed out example. Rather you know, we were focused on the content. They were focused on even before I got there, so they were starting to get some traction with their content and when I came in our marketing team got larger and we were able to release scale. So link we had five different podcasts and and you know, we were a marketing team of like seven, so I think nine, and our largest. So it wasn't that we had a huge team, we...

...just had a lot of people that were interested in creating content. So seven PODCASTS, we were publishing twenty five articles a week to our website and working with some freelancers to do that, but most of it was created in house and all that content started to bring more traffic to our site. At the same time we launched the community, and you know, it started, of course, as friends and family and first degree connections that we would invite in, and this was at the time it was a community launched on facebook, which made sense then. I don't I certainly wouldn't do that today. And we grew that community very much by referrals and working with community members to bring people in and get larger. And then we would do events in the community. So before we had a conference, we had amaze with wellknown authors or, you know, we had shows live facebook, live shows that we did in the community to begin to develop that that feeling of people coming together that eventually led to us having in person conferences and our community any members, were the first people to buy tickets to those and, as I mentioned, by the time I left I think we had seven hundred people coming to the conference. And then, of course, the next year was covid so I don't know what happens is then. But all of those community events the newsletter. Similarly, we would we would elevate some of the conversations happening in the community and mention them in the newsletter. We would promote the events there. So people would subscribe to the newsletter from within the community and vice versa. People who got the newsletter would then join the community read the articles, and so these were all self reinforcing strategies. It sounds it sounds brilliant. How do you convince tight fisted chief financial officers and founders that are worried about a media Roy this sounds like a big investment. And what's the framework through which you you because every experiment that you run in marketing is not going to work and you can't be so doctrinaire. You have to be careful about making too many promises to financially motivated stakeholders, but they do have to have an appetite for...

...making big bets. What's the conversation look like between you and the people that control the purse strings to make sure that did they feel excited about this? Well, I think I mean, it starts, I've learned the hard way, it starts with selecting where you take your job based on the attitude of leadership. When I joined trades, well, I sat down with the the CEO, and he was making me the offer to join and he said, what's it going to take for you to say yes, and I said, well, I need to know that you're on the same page as me with how I believe marketing should be done. And he said, what do you mean by that? And I I literally had a deck where I walked him through kind of what I know to be true about marketing today and the implications that that has for how we should go to market, and I talked about exactly this, like needing to think like a media business and build a community and do events, and he was like, I love it, I'm on board. And and in fact we have, I think it was two weeks ago, we launched our new media property called the current, which is at the current dot media. If anybody wants to check it out, and so it starts there, like you need to vet the company that's looking to hire you just as they're vetting you. Now some people are listening to this and saying, well, I'm already working somewhere. So how do I navigate that conversation? And I think there's really two points to be made. One is that marketing has fundamentally changed and buying decisions are not happening like they did, seven, eight years ago where, you know, when I had my agency, I used to tell people, oh, and people need something, they go to Google and they type their question in and they find there, you know, their search results, and they go and they do their research and that's how they find you. And I think that's still happens sometimes. But honestly, what happens now, more so than anything else, is if I need to buy something, I go into pavilion or I go into my peer groups and I say, Hey, what are you guys using and I get two or three brand names and I don't go to Google and search, you...

...know, best call tracking software. I go to Google and I type in the names of three call tracking software companies that somebody else has told me to check out. And so to get an at bat in today's world you have to be the brand that that not just the buyer is interested in and is aware of, but the peer set of the buyer is aware of and and evangelizing, and a lot of that peer set isn't going to be in buying mode. And so the traditional approach to marketing, where you're marketing to an inmarket buyer, only solves for half the equation. You actually have to be marketing to people who are not buying right now, who may not buy any time soon or who may not buy ever, but they are the ones that are making those recommendations in those walled gardens and that's where this media approach is so effective. It keeps you in front of that audience that you're trying to reach, the buyer and or their peer set, whether they're currently in a buying cycle or not, and that's how you get those at bats. So that would be the first point I would make, and then the second point is you, if you do it right, you should be able to monetize it, and I mean we're we've only had our media property up for two weeks and we're already having people saying they're interested in, you know, sponsoring content or advertising or sponsoring the newsletter. We're not doing it yet, but that's I'm sure that's in the future. Great, great insights. It's been a fantastic conversation. We've got a time for a few more questions. So one of the things that we ask before people come on on the show is, you know, what's something you believe that others don't and and you wrote performance marketing isn't effective. Tell us what you mean by that. Well, I'm being very absolutist in that statement and an end that's a little bit to provoke controversy. I'm not going to say performance marketing is dead, but anyone who thinks that they can run an entire marketing strategy purely on data is kidding themselves. You know, if the last few years have brought some really massive changes to marketing, things like IOS Fourteen, point five, you know,...

...which blew up everybody's facebook AD ability and drove cack up things like you know now with actually IOS fifteen, emails are being open in sandboxes and so you don't you can't trust your email open rates. You know, there's there's just so many changes that are happening that make data difficult to rely on. I just talked about Walt Gardens and there's this notion of dark social that people are talking about, where what happens if I'm in pavilion and I asked for a recommendation and somebody says, Oh, you should check out Gong, feel like at that conversation. Happens ten times a day and then I go to Gong's website. Well, if Gong's relying just on data to figure out what brought me to their site and do attribution, they're probably going to either see it as organic traffic or direct but they're not going to know it came from pavilion. And so too much of what works in marketing right now isn't trackable. So yeah, you should look at data and I always like to say you should be data inspired, but if you're purely data driven you're going to miss so many opportunities and it's going to really reinforce short term thinking, which I think is very dangerous. I love it. Couldn't agree more. One of my favorite marketers, Jeffreakers, always talked about, you know, let's look at the efficacy of the overall campaign as opposed to anyone particular piece of information or or you know, it's we have to look at the totality of our marketing activities, not just one specific action. That's exactly right. And one of the most important ingredients and marketing is brand and it's also the one that's the hardest to measure. Absolutely right, Kathleen, were just about at the end of our time together, but one of the things we like to do at the very end is is just get a sense for your influences. It can be and you mentioned a bunch that you mentioned that fellow that wrote those books on marketing a couple founder. When I think of when we think about or when you think about people that have inspired you, ideas that have inspired you, paying it forward, following the breadcrumb trail so that we can understand a little bit more and maybe walk in your footsteps. Who are people or ideas or books that you think we should know about that have helped form who you are as a person on a marketer? Well, the one I'm going...

...to mention isn't isn't about marketing, on the surface at least, but it's Adam grant is somebody that I am a real, big fan of he wrote a book. He's written several books that are great, but the one that I really loved and that made a big difference to me is called give and take, and I have a feeling, Sam, if you haven't read it, it would be one that you would love to, knowing what I do about you, because the whole book is basically about how, throughout history, many of the most successful people have been people who led with a give first. Men Callady, and it talks about why approaching life and business and and even marketing with a strategy of giving is what's going to ultimately make you successful. It was really impactful for me and and change the way I think about business and marketing and life. I think you're right that it sounds like it would be right up my alley, based on based on the things I'm working on. Kathleen, it's been a delight to have you on the show. If folks want to reach out to you for any number of reasons, what's the best way to get in touch with you, if you're open to it? Sure so. I have a personal website, which is Kathleen Das boothcom, and you can certainly check that out. I'm really active on Linkedin and I will absolutely connect with you if you send me a request and shoot me a message. Wonderful, Kathleene. Thanks so much for being on the show. We'll talk to you on Friday for Friday fundamentals. Thanks for having me. Everybody, SAM's corner. What a great conversation with Kathleen booth. I really loved it. I'm just a big believer that you have to first of all, on the big believe for an investing in your brand. Too many people don't understand what brand is. They have distilled you know, they read one or two books by salespeople that wrote books about marketing. They don't really understand marketing. They don't understand brand. They don't understand that they like. It's all about generating leads. If you're not generally lea's, what are you doing? Those people are fools. They're just really shallow and sophomoric. Brand is how people feel about you. Brand is is what people think of you. Brand is how they talk about you. You must invest in all of...

...those things. Brand is the feeling that your customers have using your product and how they feel about themselves. It's how you feel when you buy a new iphone. It's why you feel like you must upgrade to an Iphoneus how people feel and they use their Peloton. It's not just about converting people that are already in the market for an exercise bike into paying peloton customers. It's about creating an idea of who you are related to your experience with the product. So brand is critical and one of the ways you shape brand is by investing in content. That's why, you know, the death of media is exaggerated, because all of the people that were writers, all of the people that were editors, all of the people that were working in magazines, they still have roles to play and they have a roles to play inhouse at companies that need to communicate a message out to people that are either buying things from them, not buying things from them, but thinking about them. So Kathleen talks about investing and Turning Your Marketing Organization partially into a media company so that you can be part of conversations that are not actively happening in a buying sense for your company, but are actively happening from a referential sex when people are talking about who's the best person to use this, who's the best person news that that's where your brand, that's where your content, that's where the ideas that you populate come into play. And she talks about frequency and consistency. It has to be frequent, it has to be consistent. Most companies, including our sins and newsletter once a month. They send a newsletter three times a week. It has to be a great newsletter, it has to have something to say, it had to be interesting. But if you can do that, and she mentioned the difference between transactional and episodic at episodic builds over time, whereas transactional doesn't. So I just thought just so many great insights from that conversation with Kathleen and I really appreciated it. She's thought deeply about the subject and it comes across in the conversation. If you want to reach out to me, you can reach out to me at linkedincom forward. Slash the word in forwards. Last same, F Jacobs, and thanks again to our sponsors. We'll hear from them next. We'll talk to you next time. Thanks again for listening to the Sales Hacker podcast. Once again, thanks to...

...our sponsors. Outreach, the first and only engagement intelligence platform built by revenue innovators. For Revenue Innovators, go to click, dot outreach, dot Ao, forward, thirty MPC to learn more. Also, pavilion and roll, your sales team, your marketing team and your entire go to market organization in Sales School, Sales Development School, marketing school and many, many more. Learn more at joint PAVILIONCOM. And finally, fresh works and their new product, fresh sales. With fresh sales you can develop digital customer journey maps in a great advanced digital commerce capabilities and create unified experiences across all of your digital touch points. Get a free trial of fresh sales at fresh workscom. FORWARD SLASH FRESH SALES.

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