The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 4 months ago

164. Sales Lessons From a Former Jehovah's Witness w/ Kyle Racki

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode of the Sales Hacker podcast, we welcome Kyle Racki, the co-founder and CEO of Proposify. This company gives sales leaders visibility and consistency in their closing. Proposify helps more than 10,000 sales teams around the world eliminate the frustration caused by the proposal process. They also recently sponsored the Sales Hacker Podcast.

What You’ll Learn

  1. Entrepreneurship isn't in your genes
  2. Why it's hard to push back against your group
  3. The journey from freelancer to founder
  4. How to create and maintain a competitive advantage
  5. Solving the innovator's dilemma
  6. The framework for leading a startup to success

Show Agenda and Timestamps

  1. Entrepreneurship isn't in your genes [5:59]
  2. Why it's hard to push back against your group [7:15]
  3. The journey from freelancer to founder [10:43]
  4. How to create and maintain a competitive advantage [15:32]
  5. Solving the innovator's dilemma [18:31]
  6. The framework for leading a startup to success [20:45]
  7. Sam’s Corner [26:56]


One two one: Three: Three: Everybody:It's Sam Jacobs, welcome to the Sales Hacker podcast, we're incrediblyexcited to have you, and this week we've got on the show. Kilray he's theCO founder and CEO of a really cool company called PROPOSITI. They wererecently sponsors of the sales hacker podcast and he's just a reallyinteresting person. He grew up as a Jehovah's Witness and then split offfrom that group and is now, as he says, an apostate. I guess that's what theycall people that leave Jehovah's Witnesses and he's also a greatsoftware founder or building a business from from Nova, Scotia, so really goodconversation before we get there. We want to think our sponsors. Our firstis outraged. Outrages, of course, has been a long time sponsor the show andthey just launched a new lay to learn, check out out rich on outright theplace to learn how outrise uses their own software learn. How the teamfollows up with every lead and record time, learn how they turn virtualevents and people that attend virtual events into prospects. You can also seehow they run a count. Base plays man a dres and so much more, using their veryown sales engagement platform had to outreach adao forward, slash on outreach to see what they've got going on. Also, I've got another great sponsorlinked in today's virtual selling environment to bands a new kind ofapproach, one that prioritize the buyer above all else is the world's largestprofessional network was seven hundred and twenty two million members Lincolnis the only place where buyers and sellers connect share and drive successfor each other every day find new ways to connect. With your bias, virtuallywith linked and sales navigator, you can learn more or request a free,demnat business dot lingom for sails Dash Solutions. Now without further ado,let's listen to my interview with Kyle racky everybody at Sam Jacobs. Welcome to theSales Hacker podcast today were excited to have on the show. Kyle racky Kyle isthe C E and Co founder of propositi Assas Company based out of Halifax Nova,Scotcha Canada that helps more than ten thousand sales teams around the world,eliminate the frustration caused by the proposal process. Kyle started hisfirst business, a Web Design Company at age, twenty four and sold it after fiveyears, he's blogged extensively about his journey through the ups and downsof entrepreneurship and was a subject of a two thousand and sixteen articlein Time magazine in two thousand and nineteen. He published his first bookfree trials and tribulations how to build a business while getting punchedin the mouth which was featured as an Amazon, best seller outside of work. Hehangs out with his wife. Three sons plays guitar and attempts to serve Kyle.Welcome to the show, thanks for Avin me Sam said it to be here. We're excitedto have you, and I should have asked this before we click record, but did Ipronounce your last name correctly? I didn't hear what he said. I think yousaid rocky right, that's what I said: Yeah Yeah! Well, that's right, perfect,good, good, all right! So Kyle! Here's how we start. We call it the baseballcard, but what it really is is an opportunity for you to share with us alittle bit more about your company. So they are incredible and great sponsorsof the sales hiker podcast propose, but in your words, what is proposed, if Ido so proposal, I is software that really helps sales teams get a handleon their proposal process. We exist really because a lot of sales leaderscome to us and they say hay or sales. Raps are kind of running their ownplaybook. When it comes to proposals, everybody is sort of. You know, copyingand pasting going in their email. Finding the last proposal they wrote orjust kind of building their own thing and, as a result, deals go out withmistakes errors. Sometimes pricing issues heavily discounted terms thatare kind of out of whack, so they kind of feel like they need to put someguard rails in place over their proposal process and get morevisibility into it, not necessarily understanding. What's out there havetheir prospects looked at their proposals. What are they mostinterested in? So essentially that's what Proposa doesn't in that show. Wehelp sales leaders get more control and visibility into their sales process.That's awesome. Are there enhancements that, as a consequence of you know, usesystematizing the process of putting together a proposal? Are there thingsthat you've done, that are that make it even better than normal proposal yeah?Absolutely so one of the delivery...

...mechanisms, through our platform, isinstead of just like emailing your prospect, O pd and and kind of hopingthat they opened it or it got through their span filters. Is it's just a link?It's you know, kind of in a similar way to docky sign, but much more heavilybranded to you and then that way, your client can actually interact with theproposal. So it's not just a PD, it's more like a living document. They caninteract with the fees. They've got video in there, which you can leveragein a really great way. So it's actually a better output of the proposal as wellas internally kind of a more efficient way to process it. That's awesome oneof the things I don't know if you know jock o Vandercook who who runs winningby design, but he talks about a synchronise ling, meaning you know,selling happening not at the same time, but through the proposal being sharedaround the organization being able to sell to different levels of theorganization. You know as you go, and I think probably this the productprobably really dramatically enhances sales people's ability to do that. Oh atotally yeah and we recently just integrated with vide ARD. So that way,if you use videar to send videos to your prospects, you can also imbed themin your proposals and that way, like you, said, somebody's fording it aroundto the CEO or C fo who wasn't on the call they weren't there. Throughout thesales process, you can still create content that speaks to them and theirneeds fantastic. So how old is the company tell us a little bit ofwhatever you're comfortable sharing in terms of how many employees, where youare in your revenue journey when you founded it, you know, give us a littlebit of biographical context on the company. Sure Yeah, so we started intwo thousand, and fourteen really was when we got going with it, raised ourfirst round of funding and started finding product market fit. We werekind of in Beda about a year before that we are based out of Halifax, KnowScotia, which is on the east coast of Canada, and that's where most of us are,though, we're a pretty distributed. Team we're about a hundred head countor so give her take, and I just passed about seven million Ustin in Araawesome. Well, congratulations. How did you get into entrepreneurship? I thinkyour life story is really really interesting and would love to hear alittle bit about it. Everybody's journeys different, but you know, as Iread in the Bio, you started your first company at the tender age of twentyfour. What was your background? Did you always have entrepreneurship in yourgens? You know tell us a little bit about about how you got here. I reallydidn't have entrepreneurship in the jeans. I never wanted to be one,although I guess looking back in hindsight, there was a lot of stuffthat I did as a kid that probably was a precursor to entrepreneur. Ship, like Ihad my own paper root, so that kind of taught me how to like, keep a ledgerand sell the customers track. Expenses, all that kind of stuff, but also I wasraised in a very tightly controlled religion or cult, and so we had to golike door to door throughout my whole, pretty much my whole life until I leftit my adulthood we had to go and like actively try to recruit people to thecult, and so every week we would have a really sales training in publicspeaking training on how to overcome objections, how to find common groundor report building with the you know what they call the householder. Wewould call the prospect, so it was actually quite a bit of sales andpublic speaking training in that environment, which probably helpedlater on in life. As I, as I got into entrepreneurship. How comfortable areyou talking about that experience that sounds powerful? I'm an open book, Iliterally wrote a book on it called Free Trials and tribulation. So there'sa whole chapter in there about kind of leaving the cult and the and thepersonal repercussions losing my family because of it and that kind of thingwow. So and how did you? When? Did you develop the awareness that you know thecult, the organization whatever want to call it wasn't for you and that youknow, because I mean I'm sure so much of what the practices are are reallybuilt around indoctrination and making sure that the core beliefs are embeddedinto your mind. How did you break free from them, so I had doubts about it fora very long time. Probably since my childhood that I buried but then, as Iwas older, I was actually running my...

...first business at the time, which waslike a Web Design Agency and I was becoming disillusion with the religion,but but the way the cult which is actually if people are curious asJehovah's Witness, is pretty well known religion. But I think a lot of peopledon't realize. Like the extent of the the mind, control and manipulation thathappens within it, it's I probably put it very similar to scientologyesque. Ifyou know, people are familiar with that, there's even sort of interchangeableterms, like you know somebody who leaves scientologyesque it. They callthem suppressive persons, that's kind of the label they attached to it withJehovah's Witnesses. It's apostates. So it's like similar concepts, differentverbage, yeah yeah. I mean you're, basically embeddedwith a fear and actually a paranoia about what they call pastate literature.So anybody who's ever left the religion and writes about it or speaks about itbeing wrong, are considered apostates, they're considered, like basicallySatan's minions they're there to just destroy you, and so you develop thisparanoia of even like Google searching your own religion's name because you'renot allowed to read any literature, that's critical of it, but that's whatI did one day I just finally just said: Fuck it and Google Jehovah's Witnessesand read blog posts about it, and I was like really like. Within an hour. I waslike Holy Shit. I was raised in a cult wow. Well, it must have been a really.You know Kudos to you for having the courage to speak up and for having thecourage to set a different path. It must be to the point right, you're, anapostate. Now I guess according to them, so like you're, disassociated from yourfamily is that right, yeah, so very soon after I had become, I guess,liking it to like having the veil lifted or having my eyes opened.Awakened is a term that a lot of us in the x community use. I told my motherright away, which it was a really dumb move, because a lot of people who leavethese types of things they keep it a secret. She instantly you know saidlike okay, well, we'lll, never speak again until you decide to come backsame thing with my sister, so yeah I've been completely a strange from mymother and sister. I'm really sorry to hear that. Well, they're not to be glid but their losses. Iguess the world's gain, let's, let's, let's move on from that top, soyou started this this web design agency, I mean in Fra. You know you have afamily now and children. It sounds like you're doing incredibly well. Socongratulations arm going to be happy with my decision. I know you werelooking for a great segue and it was tough to make em, but I couldn't behappier with the decision. The there's no great segue from youknow I don't want. I no longer speak to my sister or mother, but anyway here'smy proposing soft, so sales. Let's talk exactly, but at least it's authentic.So you basically run your own web design agency. What were the lessonsthat you learned there that enabled you ultimately and was at a straight linefrom you? Did that and then you immediately started propositi or youknow what was the journey from from that moment into now running a hundredperson company all over the world etc. When I started the agency it was, therewasn't really a grand plan other than I I had been freelancing a bit prior tothat. So I liked you know, having quit my job at about twenty four and goneout of my own, I enjoyed the freedom that came with entrepreneurship, but Iwas sort of getting lonely and wanted a team, so I partnered with somebody Iknew from an agency Kevin who still my business partner to this day, but wewere, I was really just winning it. I was trying to learn what I could, butobviously there's so much to learn about entrepreneurship when you getinto it. There's IT's kind of like surfing right, like you, can't justread a book on surfing and be good at it. You have to get out there and faila whole bunch of times it like that with anything. So like I made a ton ofmistakes running the agency and it was never really that big. We never brokethe one million mark in sales like we were. We were about ten people at ourbiggest, maybe twelve. So it was a very small company and I've made all thesemistakes around like not hiring correctly. You know not being able tobuild in recurring revenue like just...

...always feast or famine, trying to findthe next project. We didn't manage it very efficiently, but one of thebiggest like mistakes I made was we didn't, go all in on a vertical or wedidn't have any kind of specialty. We were just general purpose, Web design, marketingfor anybody who could basically write us a check and, as we were getting propositi off theground, the thing that I kept coming back to was we don't want to be. Idon't want to make that same mistake again. I want to be really specificabout who we're perfect for so, even though we're a little bit more generalpurpose today, the company was built initially in the first couple of yearsoff of the idea that we are proposal, software, four digital agencies. It waslike that was the market. I knew that was, I understood their pain because Iwas the customer, so we went very narrow and deep with that vertical atthe beginning and, like I said, we've broadened out ever since we have tonsof customers from different industries, but I think that, like really specific,like picking a narrow beach head to enter at the beginning, was probablyone of the keys to our success. Did that help you build? First of all, you know get wordof mouth because all of those, maybe those people, you know the same typesof people- tend to talk to each other if they're all homogeneous to a certainextent and then from there built a brand that enabled you to extend beyondagencies had like what is the output of the focus that drove success. Do youthink? I think it's exactly what you just saidis. Is You know all of our content was completely geared towards helpingdigital agency owners run better businesses right. There was a littlebit in there about proposals every now and then, but a lot of it was just like.You know, essentially me sharing all my lessons from failing, really at runningand agency and then also embedding myself in different communities. LikeJason, swings community digital marketer. You know bit of the Hubs Bokcommunity, like there's different kind of places where people hang out bothdigitally and in person, and we you know we just went all in on that market.A lot of our investors and people that were talking to about investing we're,always saying like proposals are just such a huge problem like you shouldjust go big and like go after everybody and we were really. I was very stubbornabout saying, like no, I'm not going to make that mistake again. You know it'sso hard to build brand. If you attack the entire Addressin, I really wantedto go narrow and deep, and it worked out. It got us to that first, fewmillion and revenue that we could then build upon. That's awesome. Did youraise money for it right away? You know, was it always intending to be like amore traditional venture capital back? You know SASS business or did you ratewhat was the funding history of the company? We had tried to raise somefunding when we were running our agency, but a lot of people. I like a lot of CSand investors didn't want to invest in sort of people who are running a sidebusiness like they basically want you out there sort of starving living outof your car before they invest, because they want to know that you're not goingto just retreat back to like your service business or your consultant. Ifthings get tough, so it was actually really hard for us to raise moneywithout selling the agency. Now, thankfully, the agency wasn't really acash cow. I made it. It was enough for us to live off of, but it wasn't like.We were just breaking in these huge dividends at the end of the year, so itwas a pretty easy decision to to sell off the agency and go all in on Proposa,and once we were able to do that, and we had a product that you know wasn'tnecessarily that far along, but it had a few customers and people were payingus to use it. That was enough for our us to raise our seed round a fundingwith a Nova core. That's awesome, so one of the things that that you've saidthat you have a lot of really interesting perspectives, which ismakes you a great podcast guest. One of the things that you've said is that yousaid, despite what vses love to ask founders and pitch meetings, startups,have no mote secret, sauce or anything defensible that stops a largecompetitor from copying the idea. That is somewhat controversial perspectivewhen you say that tell me what you mean, what experiences are you referencingand and if that's true, then what do...

...start up to do in order to maintain andsustain a competitive advantage? The awesome question: I'm really glad youasked me, but that I mean if anybody is out there raising money. The firstthing they should know when they talk to a vs is they're. Looking for anyreason whatsoever to turn you down and that's just the nature of vs, they havea lot of deals come across their desk and it has to be really substantial orthe founder has to have a proven track record like if you just came off of anexit where you, you know major V, C's a billion dollars, then you could come atthem with like a Napkin, sketch and just say like yeah. I just want to dosomething in Vir and they'll. Just write, you a check me. Twenty milliondollars, boors even getting funded that much these days. Yeah, that's true!Actually, I'm in a little anyway, I don't get into that yeah. So, like tecslove to say what you know, what is your secretsauce, like that's, even kind of in your standard pitch deck template oflike secrets, sauce unique value pro defensible mode. However, you want toput it, and the thing is nobody has that at the beginning like how can youpossibly have a defensible mode? Do you have like some kind of IP? That's that's! What's the word, I'mlooking for you know the thing that so people can't copy your idea right likeit's right. Copyright, a patent trade mat death. This is the word I waslooking for, or this like crazy infrastructure. That's very difficultto replicate, like nobody has that, because it's usually just a couplepeople with an idea and a little bit of code. So the idea that you'd have thisdefensible mote that nobody can come in and copy. It is just absolutelyridiculous and if you look at the companies that have succeeded and havegotten very big, it's the ones who were just they had a really clear idea ofwhat they wanted to do and then they executed like hell like who couldn'thave created slack or Uber right like just purely from up. If you look at iton paper like Microsoft or face book, anybody could have created a chat tool.Why was it that slack grew the way it did and it was like they executedreally well sure the founder had some experience coming off a flicker andlike other projects, but at the end of the day it was like they just movedreally fast. They built a great brand like in the mind of consumers.Everybody US slack, you use uber as an example to but at the beginning, though,of course there wasn't anything that was keeping these big giant companiesfrom doing it other than they weren't focused on it at the time, and I thinkthat's the only defensive mote that start up have is banking on the factthat Google isn't focused on this right now. That is very true and most startups.Most companies really underestimate. You sit in a management meeting withyour leadership team and you figure out how difficult sometimes it is to makedecisions, and then you think about a multi billion dollar company and yes,they could copy what you're doing. But you know there's a lot of differentinterests around those tables and a lot of different incentives, and it's justnot as likely that they're going to even care as much when you talk aboutexecution. You know that word gets bandied about a lot. What does it meanto you? You know when you say they executed really well and I'm askingbecause I like, I said I think a lot of people talk about it. It's not clearexactly what the definition is. Is it? Is it quick decision making? Is it lessbureaucratic process when you think about great execution? What comes tomind for you? I think it's all that great. You knowfast decision making experimental willing to, and I think that's whyAmazon has done so well at innovating and creating like these new businessmodels that really aren't part of their core offering, but they're just able toexecute really well Jus, been so much written about how Amazon works and howthey make decisions and they produce a ton of failures to which is important.The only way to innovate is to try things rapidly and fail really quicklyright. So you know use a different example of great execution was Netliklike there was no reason why, on paper, why blockbuster shouldn't be thewebsite that we all log into and watch movies every night right likeblockbuster had it they had the cash they had the brand the catalog likethey had it all and they just weren't...

...their executives. Like you said, werethere it's too big a company they're two stayed in the old ways like thiswas written about in the innovators to Lemma, like once, you get to a certainsize. Everything becomes about protecting the way that you make moneylike it were being romantic about the way you made money neflis was differentbecause leadership saw that like if we don't disrupt ourselves, somebody elsewill so we need to be the first to be streaming, and so they just they builtthe right team. They got one who was experienced in building streaming likethey had people in their team who wanted to build the streaming service,but hadn't done it before and they said sorry, like you guys, built thedelivery mechanism of D VD, but we're built we're bringing in a team who'sdone this, and that's what I mean when I talk about execution, yeah and andNetfo is really a truly great example. What are your leadership principles?You know, do you have them? Have you formed them? Have they developed, asthe company has grown a hundred peoples, a meaningful amount of people? There'syou know people that you probably don't know super well that work at Propositi.So what's the framework that you use to be a CEO of a fast growing startupcompany yeah, I have a really good business coach Dan Martel, who I alwayssort of like almost on a daily basis. Just try to think about. It is like aCEOS job really there's three things: it's to build the vision and setdivision for for everybody around you and repeat it constantly it's to makesure that you've got the right people on the bus and the wrong people off thebus. So it's like building the team, maintaining the team and like coachingthem to success and then just don't run out of money like whatever you have todo, to make sure that there's like good governance and good financial practices,work with your C fo etc like, but that's it. And if you get, if you nailthose three jobs as a CEO, then everything else works out, but thosethree jobs are actually really hard, even though they sound simple and so,especially the building. The team part I it's constantly evaluating, like arethe people who are leading this division or this department, the people,the person that's going to take us to where we need to go, and that's alwayskind of the Lens that you have to look at it through. So there's coaching,there's supporting, but ultimately it's about holding people accountable forresults and being quick to move them either somewhere else in the businessor or out of the business if they can't do the job par enough, but also, Ithink you know, I think my experience, I'm curious on your reaction. I thinksometimes at least when I hear investors talk about that. Very skillof you know quote unquote, making the difficult decision of removing somebody.I feel like now, there's too much emphasis on making that decisionquickly, without really insuring that you've put that person in the bestpossible position to succeed by giving them the resources to support thedevelopment that they need and then the opportunity to your point, because oneof the things you said is you know people have to be allowed to fail, orat least maybe products have to be allowed to fail. So there has to belike some combination of flexibility so that you can realize the upside in theteam that you're building do you? How do you feel? What's your reaction? Tothat I mean. I think that if somebody is taking that advice really to heartand they're, giving an executive like you know two months to turn the shiparound or to like, do something: that's crazy and unexpected, and he and then,if they don't, they get them out the door they're, probably taking thatadvice a little bit too seriously, but what I've observed has been theopposite of like people leave others and it's not just the executive team.It's your executives reports as well that the directors the managers andthen their reports is that if you have the type of culture where you're alwaysjust kind of like letting it's okay for us to fail, it's okay for us to missthe mark and you don't address it soon enough. Sometimes people stick aroundand rolls that they're really not equipped for for way too long. We'retalking, you know two three four years, and so, if you can even get it to likea twelvemonth cadence where it's like, if somebody's come in and they're andthey're not able to like make a meaningful change or remove the needlewithin like a three a thirty day sort...

...of ninety day and then twelvemonth timeperiod, then the probably never going to do it right. So you have and doesn'tmean get them out of the business. They may just be great somewhere else, butthey're not good in the in the function that you have them in fair enough kyle,it's great talking to you and we're, unfortunately, almost at the end of ourtime together. What we like to do at the end is to hear about some of yourinfluences. People that you think we should know about can be your favoritepsal that doesn't work a PROPOSITI. It can be mentors. Guardy mentioned DanMartello business coach or it can be ideas. It can be a great book that youthink everybody should read so when I frame it that way, which is pretty allencompassing it's sort of whoever you think we should know about what comesto mind. Well, you know, I know sort of pre interview. One of the questions waswho's, your favorite investor. That's not on your board and somebody. I don'tknow if this audience is familiar with him, but his name is Andrew Wilkinson.He's he's Canadian like me, but on the other side he's on the Westcoast he'son the fun side he now up here on, but yeah like Andrew Wilkinson, hestarted actually a company called Meta lab, which is like an agency that thatdesigned a lot of products everyone's familiar familiar with. They workedwith Apple, Face Book and slack, but that was ten years ago or so and sincethen he's been an investor and he runs tiny capital, but I heard him on apodcast I've sort of been following them. Over the years we talked a littlebit off and on and his approach to investing is really interesting becausehe talks about essentially looking for companies that are like the New Zealandof companies and what he means by that is like New Zealand's dislike greatcountry, that sort of tuck down there that nobody really talks about a lot.But it's just it's just got like good bones, and so, when he's investing, hedoesn't look for, like all the hot startups and like Vir and air andCrypto, and all these really sexy industries that tons of vs are goingafter he's looking for like online businesses that have staying power thathave really good unit economics that he wants to invest in the law hall kind ofthat Charlie Munger approach to investing of like find a great companyand keep it for the long hall. So I recommend anyone check him out ontwitter. He's got interesting thoughts. Thank you for sharing that that'sAwesome Kyle if folks are listening and they want to get in touch with you areyou, okay with that? Maybe they want to work a proposal Fi. Maybe they want tobuy your software and if you are okay with it in some form, what's yourpreferred method of communication yeah, I'm fairly active on linked in ifpeople check out just kyle racky on link in you give a search I'll bearound there. They can email me as well. Kilo propose FIOM or check out ourwebsite propos ified com if they are curious to check out the softwareawesome kyle thanks so much for being on the sales hacker podcast and we'lltalk to you on Friday for Friday fundamentals thanks, so everybody Sam's corner really enjoyedthat conversation with Korai, pretty brave, encourage ous of him to sort oflet us in to a little bit of his upbringing as a Jehovah's Witness, andI can only imagine the pain that it must have caused to have to tell hismother and his family that he was not pursuing that path and having havingthem tell him that they would not speak to him never again until he rejoinedthe community. So that's got to be a C, incredibly courageous and difficultdecision for anybody to leave the group that they've grown up with and thatthey've been where they've learned their culture from and have beenindoctrinated into. So that was just you know something that's just an animpressive person, not impressive. Necessarily, I don't have a point ofview on the belief in Jehoash. Witness is just that. You know it's hard to togo against the group. The group often is so dominating and to have thecourage to speak your own mind and to go. Your own way is a demonstration ofcourage. It's not the easy thing to do. Certainly the other thing we talkedabout is how he thought about building and scaling Propositi, and it wasreally a very tight focus. Remember he...

...used to run a Web Marketing Agency andWeb Design Agency, and so originally it was proposal software for design agency.So one of the things that we hear a lot on the podcast is people just makingsure that your Ip, your ideal customer profile that your focus, you knowexactly who your buyer is. If you don't know exactly who your buyers and you'retrying to be all things to all people, inevitably it just becomes that muchharder to find residence, and what you want is a message that is so clear andclean and understood that it does isolate it puts off some people right.You need people to say, that's not for me, because that means that you arefucked, that it's a clear enough signal that it will find the people that it isfor. I often think about like a laser being versus the diffusion of light. Ifit's a clean, clear enough, well understood message and target audience,it can find all of those people all over the world, even if you feel likeit's a small market, but you want a clear enough signal and that signal canonly be repeated if it's clean, clear and easily understood and replicated,and that's how you build a very strong signal that broadcasts out to theuniverse. So anyway, those are my thoughts. That's the end, we're at theend of that part, if you're, not a member of the sales hacker community,yet I think you're missing out any sells professional conjoin as a memberto ask questions, get answers and share experiences with, like minded salesprofessionals, jump in and start a discussion with more than ten thousandsales professionals of sales acheron. Of course, we want to think propose afi well for the guest, but we really want to think link din, find new waysto connect with your buyers virtually with linked on sales navigator. You canlearn more or request a freedom of business that link incom for slashsales desolution. Of course, we also want to think outreach once againthanks for listening, if you wouldn't mind giving us a five star review, I ofcourse, would really appreciate it. If you want to get in touch with me, youcan email me Sam revenue, collection, otherwise I'll talk to you next time. I.

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