The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 5 months ago

Revenue Innovators: The Future of Leadership in RevOps


This episode is from our sister podcast, Revenue Innovators. For more episodes like this, subscribe to Revenue Innovators in your favorite podcast player.

Revenue Operations is the business version of Switzerland. In providing a neutral ground for marketing, sales, and customer success, RevOps must also analyze contexts to convey insights quicker. To win at this will take great RevOps leadership.

In this episode, we interview Seth Marrs, Research Director at Forrester, about the role of analysis in building RevOps into a role that amplifies the voice of the buyer.

In this episode we discuss:

  • Why RevOps is blowing integration out of the water
  • How to invest in data that actually drives insights
  • The ideal attributes of RevOps leaders
  • Peacemaking among departments (aka alignment)

Welcome to revenue innovators, the podcastpowered by outreach, where we skipped the usual podcast guests and go straight tothe source of true revenue innovation. Will Interview Mad Scientists, revenue distructors fromall kinds of surprising industries. You know, marry. All of these folks havesomething in common. These are people that are looking in the future andnot looking backward, and you know, when we get them on the podcaster'sgoing to be some hot gossip and real number talk that we push them to. We love the hot Mike. Yes, we do, and we're your host. I'm Mary Shay, global innovation of Angelis set outreach and I'm goingto reach Morehand, senior vice president of revenue, actualents and operations, alsowithout Rachi, meet us here every week and we promised to keep it spicyfor you. So let's get to it. Welcome, says, it's great tohave you. So for everyone who's joining us today, we have sessedMars, who's a principal analyst at forster. Forrester decisions, serious forester decisions.What is it? Says, it is forster decisions. Yeah, that'llbe the product line. Forester still the company. So that's the headline.Okay, so you're still your forster analyst, but you work on behalf of thenew forester decisions product line. Absolutely, Yep, you got it perfect,perfect. Well, it's really great to have you here as our inauguralguests. And for those of you who don't know, Seth and I haveworked together for a couple of years now and we're also very, very goodfriends. He does a tremendous amount of really exciting research in the Revenue OperationSpace. But sets for those of the folks who are with us today whoactually aren't analyst, tell us a little bit about what you do day today. What's a day in the life of Seth Marsh Look like? Yeah, so it's a fun time to be an analyst. It's always it.And for a foster decisions analysts, what we do is we split our time. Part of our time is spent with our clients, working with them,handling kind of the the issues that they have that they bring to us,and we provide them research guidance. We use our expertise as a for serdecisions analyst. We've been in the field. We have practitioner experience, usually twentyyears or so. So that's that's a big part of our day andthe other side of it is is doing research and understanding and translating kind ofthe things we're seeing in the market from our clients to what we're seeing fromvendors to what we're seeing play out in our own research just in the spacein general, and writing reports and and documents that that can then be usedto help clients and vendors and and anyone that's that we're working with produced betterresults. So lots of different streams of activity. I'm certain never board right, never board, and so it is such an exciting space, as youwell know. I mean, it's it's all. It's a lot of fun, I gotta admit, awesome and set,... know, kind of getting tothe topic today, right, and we're talking about this prior as wewere. Think, if you're want to talk about the s at Mc Hammer, Vanilla eyes, then in the two thousand one of the clouds, twothousand and ten is all social now every day I wake up and all wehear about his revenue operations, revenue operations, rebops, and why is it sohot like? Well, why are we the U Mc Hammer? Iwe really are. We and you'd get the parachute pants all. I'm sureyou got them on right now. Yeah, or well, I think a bigpart of it is companies have started to see I would look at itand say, if you look at the Bet Toc space, you can't reallysurvive without being integrated, and you're seeing that kind of move but they alwayslead the way and you're seeing that move over and and be to be leadersin both the marketing sales customer success. Are Looking at this going wow,if we don't get ourselves streamline, we won't be able to respond to customersin the best possible way. The cool part is you've seen companies kind ofintegrate it and take it on and put it in from a structural standpoint,but I don't think we've even scratched the surface of actually doing it, actuallyintegrated, fully delivered revenue operations. I think that we're at the beginning stageof that, as companies are starting to get a line and really starting torev up that engine. So I think the best is yet to come,definite in the NACENCY and and it's to double click a little bit. SoI think you mentioned something really key is the change we're seeing right now andB tob and with red bottoms, like it's not new, right. Iwe're catching on the flywheel of what what what's been happening to BBC roll andwould date like? What's the inflection? But like want wise be to benow going through that revolution set. Yeah, I mean I think the initial piecewas was just looking at it and seeing where what was coming but nowI think we're starting to see some forcing mechanisms that are pulling suespecially sales andmarketing, together and actually customers success as well. I'm seeing from a salesstandpoint sales are being pulled more into customer success type responsibilities because they're going tohave they have to spend more time delivering for their customers, making sure they'resatisfied with the product. And on the marketing side, I think one ofthe big catalyst is around sales engagement. That tool has come into play andit's being used both by sales and marketing. We do inquiry both on the marketingside for our d ours or bedrs, SDRs is typical term, and wedo it on the sales and marketing side for those groups and for insidesales and the implementation of that tool to drive automate, automation into sales withcreating some real kind of understanding of the power of putting those two together.And you've got kind of the the the superstars on the marketing side that reallyunderstand the automation and understand how customers are using or are looking into their productsdigitally, combined with the sales either, who are really experts on what's happening, facetoface, the relationships, deep relationships...

...with customers, and you've got thisplatform that's kind of pulling them together and they're saying weight wow, this thisworld where we can leverage both automation and in person all together and optimize eachstep in the process. There's some power in this. We really need towe really need to step forward and work together to make it happen. Yeah, I agree with that sets and I think in addition to the automation inperson connection, the intelligence now is a piece that we continue to hear somuch more and more about. And you know, the intelligence really follows thedata, which one of the reasons, I think engagement, as we know, the category today, is at the center, at the heart of allis. This is because we're able to capture an automatically upload all of thesehuman behavioral interactions as part of the buying and selling experience and with that increaseamount of data you can do more and more things and to me that thatsort of is a flywheel that Harris was talking a little bit about that putsrevenue ops back on the map and in a position to be so influential withinthe organization. Yeah, absolutely in the crazy thing is man most companies reallystruggle with it, like it just isn't working like and I think when youhave it in a sales engagement platform where it can be integrated together, you'restarting to get just a glimpse of the power of putting together the pieces thatare integrated in one system. What's going to come when you start taking allthese different pieces and pulling all of them into those systems to really amplify thevoice of a buyer and what they need to understand the best way to interactas a sales rap and combining those together? It's going to be it's amazing.You put intent data, you put when lost it and you start aggregatingthem. It's powerful stuff. Okay, and set that be cure. Youhave a front seat row. I'd be very curio saying. When you tella lot of companies struggle with as a cultural is. It's just INS isa data like. Where's the friction? There? The blunt is way Icould put his time and money. When you're being asked to deliver, it'svery easy to buy a sales text solution, put it in place and and getsome value from it and it's optically you could see something has happened.Data is slow and expensive. If you really want structured data now, it'sslow and expensive at the beginning. Right you have to get it understood,organized, set up and running. Once you have it running, it's incrediblypowerful and you can keep it going. It's very hard for businesses that aremoving so fast to take the time to step back, organize themself invest insomething that won't Tangually, tangibly be seen by executives or by those people whoare going to be investing what will be a fair amount of money to getthat integrated system. So it's this kind of I think eventually what's going tohappen is just going to be forced because you're going to have this ai wavewhere everyone's excited about ai and then down the line they're going to go,why is any I working the way I want and we're going to be rootcausing into it and going it's because your... is no good. So ifyou if you want, if you want great insights, unique great data,and fortunately that's just kind of the way it works and you have been investedhere, so you're not getting the return here. Yeah, it's interesting.I keep thinking about data so much and Harrish and I had been talking alot about data and I was thinking about that two thousand and six quote wherethe British mathematician, I think it was Clive Humby, said data is thenew oil of the twenty one century, you know, sort of unrefined orunstructured. It's meaningless, but once you start to put some structure behind itit's going to really feel where we go. So yeah, I mean I think, I think the data piece is so, so important in the engagementsthat you have, in the clients that you work with in your role.Says, what are the ones who are getting it right in terms of reallytaking a step back and putting someone in charge of data and having a dataofficer and really building putting in place of building blocks? WHO's getting it rightor you know, not necessarily any names, but what are they doing and howare they doing it? Because I think this is a huge barrier tosuccess for so many companies that we talk to. Yeah, I mean there'sthere is the data layer, which is really setting back, and I meanit starts very simply. How do you define an account? How do youintegrate an account structure? What is your source of truth for those things?So it's kind of mundane to a certain degree if you think about it,but hugely important because if you know your account now, sales and marketing couldwork together to tag team that account and make sure that you're taking care ofthem as best possible, that you're approaching the buyers with the best possible messcombined message. So you have to start kind of with the steps of understandingthings that people don't want to talk about, like governance, understanding architecture, understandingthose pieces. You got to get that part right. So the companiesthat seem to be doing that really well are going beyond just investing and say, okay, I'm going to buy a data set, I'm going to dothat. They have a philosophy around their data and they work to make surethat it's structured so they can derive insights and they can add to it.One of the interest things you see with data scientists is data scientists spend sixty, seventy percent of their time munging data, like trying to figure out how tomake it talk to him because it's so messed up. Eventually you're goingto have what if you can fix that up front, then you can havethose scientists and people who really know how to get extract insights from data focusedon building the agger algorithms to really help you grow and improve, versus tryingto figure out what's what. So that's one side of it. The otherone is really how having a philosophy around, around your text act. How doesit work? Where does it start? What do you want it to dofor you as a company? I can't tell you how many times companieswill go in and say, okay, I want to sales engagement platform.What's the best one on the market? Well, it's not about the bestone on the market. It's not best one for you on the market andyou have to understand what you need a company and what you specifically didn't gobuy the product that's going to engage your...

...base and the people that need todo the work in the best possible way and that it doesn't necessarily reflect,quote unquote, what the best is. It reflects what features are most valuableto you. Yeah, that's so interesting you say that. And of coursewe do know that outreaches the best of the best. So I think itfor that opportunity. But no, just what you said resonates with me somuch. Says because and in my six years as an analyst, I wouldget that question all the time, like what do I buy? What's thesales content solution? I should buy it? It's like they could be a teamof, you know, six sellers and they'd be like, well,it's seismic the best, and you know, seismic certainly scored really well on thewave. But if you're small team without, you know, complex needsin terms of your content, you're tagging of your content, you probably don'tneed that type of solution. So it is it is really funny. Butyeah, of course that reaches the best and marry, you know, bethe convergation around how what people aren't getting right and not getting religion on DA. I mean that that hurts so bad from me and got me PTSD froma prior to live that we can likely get add will to be a sponsorright now and I need something to numb that pain. But set but,you know, kind of take it a forward, right. I love theconversation we had, like we're collecting data, we're understanding how to separate the signalfrom the noise. We're understanding how to take the signal make it information. That next step, but like information to action or change. I meanthat's an area I feel like is underserved as well, where you get theinsides and everyone looks at each other like now what? Yeah, I meanthis is a this is a really interesting topic because to me it's all aboutspeed of insight and getting to the point where you can get insights and people'shands and get them in their hands fast so they're useful. And then alsothere's another concept, especially for sales, that people are going to have toget comfortable with, which is uncertainty. No AI engine or system is goingto say a hundred percent of the time. You do this, I think alot of sales are up. Think next best action is just basically turningme into a robot. No, no, it's going to be here's the nextbest action. Eighty percent of the time, if you take this action, it leads to this result, and then the rep can analyze the situationand go, okay, that's good information, but I'm not going to use itthis time because I know this client and they're going to go this way. So then it's a matter of just doing that, logging it, andthen now you can see how it goes and then you create another insight.So once you get your data structure right, it allows you to go fast accurately. Then you can start really using getting your sales teams comfortable with here'sthe likelihood. And that's a weird thing because a lot of times we talkin certainties, but the future with the with these tools, isn't going tobe in certainties. It's the likelihood of success, is acts, or thelikelihood of actual result. Is Why you're going to have to get comfortable withthose types of things and I think reps will embrace that, I think,once they know it's not about, Oh, I'm forcing you to do these threethings, it's here's what we see in this particular situation. I reallylove that you said that set because it...

...kind of touches on I think acommon misconception that's out there, which is, you know, the bots or thetechnology is here to kind of take away your jobs, just like ecommerce did, but it never did for sales, because people want that humanconnection and want that consultative experience that you can actually have with a great salesperson. So I think you're right and I think you're it's good that you've surfacedit. It's you know, I see a world in the future, maybea little bit further out than today, where there's a cockpit that sellers workoff of. They have, you know, multiple screens, like traitors, andthey've got data inputs that are coming from a range of systems. Theywork off a one platform, that's their platform of choice, right, andthey're making decisions based on that incoming data. But the art of it is thatthey're going to get recommendations and probabilities, like you said, but at theend of the day they're going to make the decision around what's right forfor their customer, their territory of their account, and I think that doesn'tget talked about enough. No, and then they're going to be able toevaluate how they perform, where they right, where they walk. Okay, Iwas right. Okay, then I need to stick with that. Ohcrap, I was wrong. Maybe I shouldn't do that next time. Nextto what's a little closer. I'm all in, right, and Mary,like I'm with you, like everyone is scared about the robots, right,I mean are they now reach like we're going along on humanity, and Ithink you hit it well said where it's about insights, but unless you havecontext, insights are going to work, and that's what the wreck brings in, right. They bring in the context and the situational awareness and and theexperience, and having both those two things combined is is kind of critical.Right answer. Yeah, and you, you talk a lot. I mean, look at the people progress right, you make some you make one thingeasier, then that allows you to put brain space on something else that's morecomplex. It's productivity in the world if the more you make the simple easyto do and and take it out of your way, it just allows youto think and to work through more complex scenarios that are in front of you. So I see that with ai it's more around quenching kind of the desirefor progression. You want to go forward, you got to get the admin stuff, get the activities out of the way, get the insights out ofthe way and let me think critically about what these insights meeting and how Iwant to use them to succeed with my with my customers, exactly. Andlet's switch gears a little bit, a little bit sets, and I wantto talk about sometimes I follow the future of work and I know forester doesa lot of great work in that realm and a lot of the different consultanciesare writing about the future of work and I read this great book called AiSuperpowers by the former head of Google China. You know, you start to thinkabout what's happening to different types of jobs. Well, five years ago, I think the hottest job coming out of college with STATA scientists. Youknow, in the future I think it's going to be engineers who can createalgorithms and probably mechanics who can fix robots. But you know what, what seemsyes, there's there's still hope for...

US Arati if we have to godo something else. But I hope we're not competing Mary. I hope Igot my little tool chest over here. But it's funny, you know.So as I'd think about today. What do I think some of the hottestjobs might be in BB sales? Certainly revenue ops is sort of a surfacingup to the top of my list. Like what is the ideal background looklike like? We're where should business leaders think about finding these folks or wheredo they come up through the organizations? What are the attributes in the waythis type of individual really sees the world? Yeah, I mean to me andI look at it, because what we're seeing is a lot of organizationsbuying into the concept, umbrella concept and putting their teams together either through alignmentor actual structural changes within the hierarchy of the organization. Where I think yourbest sales ops leaders are going to come from. You're going to be ableto see him right away because they're going to be the ones that get itand embrace the change and start integrating right so they're going to say, okay, I'm in marketing ops, I see sales ops, I see the throughline, so I'm going to volunteer to bring both of us together so wecan derive value, because the structure and itself isn't going to really do anythingfor marketing, for revenue operations, where you're going to start seeing the realvalue is when you start getting people to start pulling the different organizations that willbe in the future for revenue operations together to right value. And that's goingto happen by the people in it today looking at it and going wait,yeah, I'm the same team I was before, but if I work withthis person over and sales operations, this is a whole new world that wecan create for our revenue teams. Let's get together and do that. SoI think to a certain extent, as you pull these teams together, ifyou're a leader in this space, you want to look and see who arethe people who are really trying to figure out what the real value is outsideof the structure and the the proposed alignment. Where is the alignment and where isthe alignment that leads to true results and enable that for them and watchthem. Those will be your leaders of the future and revenue operations. Yeah, so I have so many different directions I want to go in terms ofour questions, but I wanted to sort of put a pin in something.You start, you kind of went back between REV OPS and sales ops,and is revops just to glorify salesops or what? How is revops sort ofthe different than salesops? Should we be using the words simultaneously or differently?I have an opinion, but I want to hear what you say. Yeah, I mean honestly, I think. I think revenue operations is is businessSwitzerland for between marketing, sales and customer success. So I think everyone canagree you if you use revenue, and perfectly fine conversation around whether sales orrevenue are the same thing. But that's kind of Switzer in there. Butit's not sales ops' it's you're going to have marketing ops and sales ops.Usually they're being pulled together under REV ops, but the weird thing is most organizationsare pulling them under and keeping them... the same org so that's structurallyokay, but it's not going to yield the benefits you're going to get fromhaving an integrated revenue operations organization. You need to have those teams come together, have sales offs and marketing ops come together and say what do we do? Map it all out and say what is our organization look like in revenueoperations between these two teams, and this is where we're going to go,because you're not going to get the value by just saying, Oh, Ihave a REV OPS leader and I'm putting the the sales and marketing ops thesame team. They should accomplish where a revops organization that work. Twenty onecentury branding right, man, great rebranding exercise. One thing I want totalk a little bit about is the concept of marketing and sales alignment, andI believe that revenue opstion, this discipline function will actually finally end that ward. I hope to write some sort of article this year and maybe HBS willpick it up, who knows. But are you seeing? You know fromthe work that you do, is there are marketing folks dragging their feet?Or so? Are Sales folks dragging their feet? Are some people still wantingto have their own obs function and operate in silos? Or Two folks reallyrealize that it's just sort of one team at this point? Oh, theydon't realize. I think most or most people, and it's not just sales, are marketing offs. I think they're just trying to do what they've alwaysdone. So to a large extent, I mean change is a very difficultthing, no matter where you are so those in marketing offs struggling with change, those in sales op struggling with change. It's why it's so important for thosepeople who are given the title of Rev ops or given the the abilityto influence that, to enable those teams to be willing to change, towant to change, to give them the power to understand what alignment really lookslike and make those changes internally with their team, because I think it pushcomes a shot. People don't like change. So you put them in our organizationand you're just going to keep doing what they normally do and sent inthe before I forget I'm going to I wrote Down Business Switzerland is my nextvacation destination. So sound wonderful. Everybody needs to marry your luggage. SoI think they bring up an interesting point in and I throught I want topull a little bit. You know, I think you've write a revenee operationsis that agnostic group that's trying to build out the revenue strategy by breaking silos. But there's an element of that that it's really important. You can ofbring it back the earlier conversation, because everyone's trying to get more customer centricand buy or centric. Right, how do I respond? How am Ihaving the right conversations? How do I get the data? But redops candrive that change. Alan. So when you think about the CEA sweet hethink about executive sponsor, where does it need to start? Like, WHO'sthat change agent in the executive Bob all, who brings this thinking in and theconversations you've had? Yeah, it has to eat. I mean youcan come from the CEO, it can come from the the CMO, theCR, the the chief sales officer,...

...anyone in that suite that's looking atit and can see it's very clear right like this. I remember, Iremember years ago seeing presentations where it's like marketing owns it to sixty percent andfrom sixty percent sales zones it and that's the way it works. We doa handoff, as like a Bati handoff, and then you have it. Wedon't do anything anymore. But that doesn't work anymore. It doesn't worklike and we can see in the transactions. The digital and nondigital transactions are everywhere. The marketing and sales to it a transactions are completely interspersed within thatsales process. So just seeing that any executive in a company that sees thatnow looks at their organization and sees marketing down this hall and sales down thishall has to be looking at it going. How on Earth am I going togive a great experience, both digital and nondigital, to my buyers whenthese two teams don't talk to each other? So I mean I think anyone wholooks at that that has the ability to make this change would see thatand be very anxious about the future of their sales or their future sales growthwith it being separate. So I think you can come from anyone that hasthe ability to make that change and it's quick fall on on that Seb.I mean I think your spot on right. I mean I think it's kind ofmatter of it. It's when and it's probably now about process people tohave. Whether you're in the enterprise and you have the Behem it that you'retrying to figure out, how do I get this mindset in there? You'resmall company. Both have that. Probably have the same question like how doyou start? But where do you start? Yeah, I mean for me Ilook at it is I like the idea of executive sponsorship for alignment,but feel at field let or roll level sponsorship for path so if I'm lookingat where I want to go as a revenue operations team, senior leadership,Set the Vision on where you see this going and why it's important, butthen empower the people that are going to be a part of this man ofchange to be able to determine what that looks like and present to you howthey're going to get there. By doing that it allows people who are reallyscared of change, like we all are, to really have a voice in it, but then also have guard rails to know this is what we're tryingto accomplish. So build the pathway with me to go get to that,to get to that goal. So says, how do you get started? Likewhat if you're not, you know, a newer sophisticated company, like youknow, one of the big tech companies, or you don't have herreason his team you know with you, like, how do you coach yourclients and others that maybe at different stages of the maturity Continuum to get started? What? What's how do you get started? The simple piece is whata lot of people are doing already. It's around alignment, out of Aligne. What do I want to do which parts of the organization will come together. But it goes back at that point, once you get to alignment, itreally becomes about what's the best way to make the most out of thisalignment you've put these two teams under and told them to align. You've gotto get definitions of what it looks like.

So, regardless of the size ofthe team, could be a hundred people or could be five people.You've got to understand the alignment, where you want to go and why it'simportant from a buyer perspective and the value they're going to get, and thenempower the people who are experts in those teams to be able to help moldthe process and steps and activities that need to be taken to provide that aligne sales process or that aligned sales approach and marketing approach to to your buyers. Got It. So I want to talk a little bit about sort ofthe as a service delivery model and do you feel that companies that have adoptedthat model and that that's really been an accelerant for revenue ops, just giventhat, like you said, there's it's not a linear cycle anymore. Yeah, I definitely think it has and it's been an accelerant for for revenue opps. And also with revenue opps, pulling in customer success, especially with thecustomer success element, becomes significantly more important in an SAS environment, especially inone where you your have to prove your worth every every month. You haveto prove that you're providing the value that you committed to from the beginning.So you've got to have customer success on more because they're the people who arehelping facilitate that and then are also understand what is and isn't working from amarketing standpoint. I think there are some things that are that are very similar. It's a different go to market, but and there's some different things you'lldo once you're engaged. But I think it the real emphasis get. Itreally pulls in customer success as a critical element within that revenue operations function.Yeah, absolutely, and you know, one of the other things I wasthinking about is, what if I wanted to create a revenue opps function atmy company and potentially put myself up to run that piece the organization and reach. This could very well be for you as well this question, but I'dlove to know how you both think about how do you think about the rowof the function and the discipline for an organization? So you're sitting with aCEO and the CEO says, okay, you know, I'm willing to fundthis organization. What am I going to get back? Have you all beenable to deliver and communicate? Communicate and deliver. That are a lie aspart of some of the work that you've done or you've observed self. Yeah, I mean I've seen in a couple different ways. The sad thing isin a lot of companies, not a lot of companies, but in somecompanies, they use it as a catalyst to restructure and it becomes of away to kind of right size the organization to what they want it to be. So it isn't necessarily a buy into revenue operations as an enabler. It'smore of a hey, we want to make some tinuity that our organ thisworks for us, so we're going to make those changes. But the teamswho are really getting our why are the ones that understand and identify the gapsthat that are presented by not working together, the things that aren't happening, thewind rates that are dropping because you're disconnected with how you communicate and you'renot communicating as on sales and marketing team to the buyer. So the onesthat are really successful are looking at that...

...and saying here's where we think weare, we've looked at it, we're not performing well, and then theybuild the revenue operations team to amplify or to improve that. How they howthey sell to those buyers and can very easily see this is what we're deliveringbefore. Now look at what we're delivering. I think when you talk about cadencetechnology, that's a place where you really can see it. I thinkone of the reasons why sales engagement platforms have taken off so much is becausethere's a very clear path to understanding how to derive value from these systems becauseyou can provide it, you can understand what works and you can amplify itacross a larger team in a really, really good way that drives tangible,real results. So you see that and you can prove it. Yeah,and said it. said. I mean, I couldn't agree with you more.And then I think there's a nuance here. Mary and said talked aboutin the prior two questions. You got to get executive. Buy It rightto do rent bomps right. It's not a it's not a balant. EatOur income statement line where you're looking at. Okay, where am I saving moneyand whereas how do I free lock facts? You're putting the lens on. Okay, they're two things. I want to get better. How Iacquire customers and how I unlock lifetime value. And that customer journey it needs anowner and that owner needs to be able to orchestrate all these different teamsacross the company, create the systems of orchestration, pull that data, separatesignal from noise, drive information, drive pain. So you got to buyinto that and the outcome is on those on the journey right. You lookat cost of acquisition, you know efficiency, activation, lifetime value and you canlook at things like NPS and they're derivative metrics that. That's the religionthat the leadership team needs to have, because there's an element of seeing theproblem, investing in revop to solve the problem, but then building a cultureto empower them right, because your Credi rebobs team, but then you're marketingleader and sales lead and everyone else like, look, I don't have to listento anything that redops does. Then you're just blushed a lot of goodmoney down that you know what right. So and I think that's where theevolution of redops is kind of getting to. Maturity. Model is like the empowerable. It's moving from an orb to an empowered mindset, and that's theexciting part. I mean, at least how I look at it. Saidme now. Hopefully that resumes. I want for for sure. One ofthe things that I've seen with corporations is or that that people need to do. Take a chance on actually delivering the number. Before you make the orbchange, identify the change that you want to deliver, the Roi you wantto deliver, and be courageous enough to stand up and say this is thenumber we're working towards and allow your organization around better win rates and improved deliveryincrease sales, put those numbers out there and task that team that you've puttogether to go deliver those numbers. But...

...that's always hard to do because peopleare nervous about being wrong all, but it's the only way to really getget true value out of these groups. Well, perfects APP it would covera lot of ground. This has been fantastic. We really appreciate your timeand thoughtfulness in this discussion for the audience. Hopefully a lot of great takeaways onyou know why revops, how to do it, how to get aride, putting a lot. Hopefully you're creating a lot more thought and creativityand how you're thinking about the function. And with that we're going to endthis episode. Please go to sales hacker revenee operations community for rest of theepisodes on revenue innovators. Thank you said. Thank you, Mary, and everyonewill talk to you soon. Thank you for listening to the Revenue Innovatorspodcast. We want to keep the show really relevant and we want to hearfrom you. Tell us what you like most or what you like to hearby leave us a rating and a review. But of course we are partial tothe number five. And if you're a revenue innovator and are not partof the sales hacker community yet, you're missing out. Go to sales hackercomand become a member, ask questions, get fast answers and share experiences withTwentyzero. Like minor professionals, were shaking up things in their own organizations.Thanks, serice. So we'll see all back here on this podcast every otherweek, where you learn from the world's most disruptive revenue innovators.

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