The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

Revenue Innovators: The Future of Leadership in RevOps

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This episode is from our sister podcast, Revenue Innovators. For more episodes like this, subscribe to Revenue Innovators in your favorite podcast player.

Revenue Operations is the business version of Switzerland. In providing a neutral ground for marketing, sales, and customer success, RevOps must also analyze contexts to convey insights quicker. To win at this will take great RevOps leadership.

In this episode, we interview Seth Marrs, Research Director at Forrester, about the role of analysis in building RevOps into a role that amplifies the voice of the buyer.

In this episode we discuss:

  • Why RevOps is blowing integration out of the water
  • How to invest in data that actually drives insights
  • The ideal attributes of RevOps leaders
  • Peacemaking among departments (aka alignment)

Welcome to revenue innovators, the podcast powered by outreach, where we skipped the usual podcast guests and go straight to the source of true revenue innovation. Will Interview Mad Scientists, revenue distructors from all kinds of surprising industries. You know, marry. All of these folks have something in common. These are people that are looking in the future and not looking backward, and you know, when we get them on the podcaster's going to be some hot gossip and real number talk that we push them to. We love the hot Mike. Yes, we do, and we're your host. I'm Mary Shay, global innovation of Angelis set outreach and I'm going to reach Morehand, senior vice president of revenue, actualents and operations, also without Rachi, meet us here every week and we promised to keep it spicy for you. So let's get to it. Welcome, says, it's great to have you. So for everyone who's joining us today, we have sessed Mars, who's a principal analyst at forster. Forrester decisions, serious forester decisions. What is it? Says, it is forster decisions. Yeah, that'll be the product line. Forester still the company. So that's the headline. Okay, so you're still your forster analyst, but you work on behalf of the new forester decisions product line. Absolutely, Yep, you got it perfect, perfect. Well, it's really great to have you here as our inaugural guests. And for those of you who don't know, Seth and I have worked together for a couple of years now and we're also very, very good friends. He does a tremendous amount of really exciting research in the Revenue Operation Space. But sets for those of the folks who are with us today who actually aren't analyst, tell us a little bit about what you do day to day. What's a day in the life of Seth Marsh Look like? Yeah, so it's a fun time to be an analyst. It's always it. And for a foster decisions analysts, what we do is we split our time. Part of our time is spent with our clients, working with them, handling kind of the the issues that they have that they bring to us, and we provide them research guidance. We use our expertise as a for ser decisions analyst. We've been in the field. We have practitioner experience, usually twenty years or so. So that's that's a big part of our day and the other side of it is is doing research and understanding and translating kind of the things we're seeing in the market from our clients to what we're seeing from vendors to what we're seeing play out in our own research just in the space in general, and writing reports and and documents that that can then be used to help clients and vendors and and anyone that's that we're working with produced better results. So lots of different streams of activity. I'm certain never board right, never board, and so it is such an exciting space, as you well know. I mean, it's it's all. It's a lot of fun, I gotta admit, awesome and set,...

...you know, kind of getting to the topic today, right, and we're talking about this prior as we were. Think, if you're want to talk about the s at Mc Hammer, Vanilla eyes, then in the two thousand one of the clouds, two thousand and ten is all social now every day I wake up and all we hear about his revenue operations, revenue operations, rebops, and why is it so hot like? Well, why are we the U Mc Hammer? I we really are. We and you'd get the parachute pants all. I'm sure you got them on right now. Yeah, or well, I think a big part of it is companies have started to see I would look at it and say, if you look at the Bet Toc space, you can't really survive without being integrated, and you're seeing that kind of move but they always lead the way and you're seeing that move over and and be to be leaders in both the marketing sales customer success. Are Looking at this going wow, if we don't get ourselves streamline, we won't be able to respond to customers in the best possible way. The cool part is you've seen companies kind of integrate it and take it on and put it in from a structural standpoint, but I don't think we've even scratched the surface of actually doing it, actually integrated, fully delivered revenue operations. I think that we're at the beginning stage of that, as companies are starting to get a line and really starting to rev up that engine. So I think the best is yet to come, definite in the NACENCY and and it's to double click a little bit. So I think you mentioned something really key is the change we're seeing right now and B tob and with red bottoms, like it's not new, right. I we're catching on the flywheel of what what what's been happening to BBC roll and would date like? What's the inflection? But like want wise be to be now going through that revolution set. Yeah, I mean I think the initial piece was was just looking at it and seeing where what was coming but now I think we're starting to see some forcing mechanisms that are pulling suespecially sales and marketing, together and actually customers success as well. I'm seeing from a sales standpoint sales are being pulled more into customer success type responsibilities because they're going to have they have to spend more time delivering for their customers, making sure they're satisfied with the product. And on the marketing side, I think one of the big catalyst is around sales engagement. That tool has come into play and it's being used both by sales and marketing. We do inquiry both on the marketing side for our d ours or bedrs, SDRs is typical term, and we do it on the sales and marketing side for those groups and for inside sales and the implementation of that tool to drive automate, automation into sales with creating some real kind of understanding of the power of putting those two together. And you've got kind of the the the superstars on the marketing side that really understand the automation and understand how customers are using or are looking into their products digitally, combined with the sales either, who are really experts on what's happening, facetoface, the relationships, deep relationships...

...with customers, and you've got this platform that's kind of pulling them together and they're saying weight wow, this this world where we can leverage both automation and in person all together and optimize each step in the process. There's some power in this. We really need to we really need to step forward and work together to make it happen. Yeah, I agree with that sets and I think in addition to the automation in person connection, the intelligence now is a piece that we continue to hear so much more and more about. And you know, the intelligence really follows the data, which one of the reasons, I think engagement, as we know, the category today, is at the center, at the heart of all is. This is because we're able to capture an automatically upload all of these human behavioral interactions as part of the buying and selling experience and with that increase amount of data you can do more and more things and to me that that sort of is a flywheel that Harris was talking a little bit about that puts revenue ops back on the map and in a position to be so influential within the organization. Yeah, absolutely in the crazy thing is man most companies really struggle with it, like it just isn't working like and I think when you have it in a sales engagement platform where it can be integrated together, you're starting to get just a glimpse of the power of putting together the pieces that are integrated in one system. What's going to come when you start taking all these different pieces and pulling all of them into those systems to really amplify the voice of a buyer and what they need to understand the best way to interact as a sales rap and combining those together? It's going to be it's amazing. You put intent data, you put when lost it and you start aggregating them. It's powerful stuff. Okay, and set that be cure. You have a front seat row. I'd be very curio saying. When you tell a lot of companies struggle with as a cultural is. It's just INS is a data like. Where's the friction? There? The blunt is way I could put his time and money. When you're being asked to deliver, it's very easy to buy a sales text solution, put it in place and and get some value from it and it's optically you could see something has happened. Data is slow and expensive. If you really want structured data now, it's slow and expensive at the beginning. Right you have to get it understood, organized, set up and running. Once you have it running, it's incredibly powerful and you can keep it going. It's very hard for businesses that are moving so fast to take the time to step back, organize themself invest in something that won't Tangually, tangibly be seen by executives or by those people who are going to be investing what will be a fair amount of money to get that integrated system. So it's this kind of I think eventually what's going to happen is just going to be forced because you're going to have this ai wave where everyone's excited about ai and then down the line they're going to go, why is any I working the way I want and we're going to be root causing into it and going it's because your...

...data is no good. So if you if you want, if you want great insights, unique great data, and fortunately that's just kind of the way it works and you have been invested here, so you're not getting the return here. Yeah, it's interesting. I keep thinking about data so much and Harrish and I had been talking a lot about data and I was thinking about that two thousand and six quote where the British mathematician, I think it was Clive Humby, said data is the new oil of the twenty one century, you know, sort of unrefined or unstructured. It's meaningless, but once you start to put some structure behind it it's going to really feel where we go. So yeah, I mean I think, I think the data piece is so, so important in the engagements that you have, in the clients that you work with in your role. Says, what are the ones who are getting it right in terms of really taking a step back and putting someone in charge of data and having a data officer and really building putting in place of building blocks? WHO's getting it right or you know, not necessarily any names, but what are they doing and how are they doing it? Because I think this is a huge barrier to success for so many companies that we talk to. Yeah, I mean there's there is the data layer, which is really setting back, and I mean it starts very simply. How do you define an account? How do you integrate an account structure? What is your source of truth for those things? So it's kind of mundane to a certain degree if you think about it, but hugely important because if you know your account now, sales and marketing could work together to tag team that account and make sure that you're taking care of them as best possible, that you're approaching the buyers with the best possible mess combined message. So you have to start kind of with the steps of understanding things that people don't want to talk about, like governance, understanding architecture, understanding those pieces. You got to get that part right. So the companies that seem to be doing that really well are going beyond just investing and say, okay, I'm going to buy a data set, I'm going to do that. They have a philosophy around their data and they work to make sure that it's structured so they can derive insights and they can add to it. One of the interest things you see with data scientists is data scientists spend sixty, seventy percent of their time munging data, like trying to figure out how to make it talk to him because it's so messed up. Eventually you're going to have what if you can fix that up front, then you can have those scientists and people who really know how to get extract insights from data focused on building the agger algorithms to really help you grow and improve, versus trying to figure out what's what. So that's one side of it. The other one is really how having a philosophy around, around your text act. How does it work? Where does it start? What do you want it to do for you as a company? I can't tell you how many times companies will go in and say, okay, I want to sales engagement platform. What's the best one on the market? Well, it's not about the best one on the market. It's not best one for you on the market and you have to understand what you need a company and what you specifically didn't go buy the product that's going to engage your...

...base and the people that need to do the work in the best possible way and that it doesn't necessarily reflect, quote unquote, what the best is. It reflects what features are most valuable to you. Yeah, that's so interesting you say that. And of course we do know that outreaches the best of the best. So I think it for that opportunity. But no, just what you said resonates with me so much. Says because and in my six years as an analyst, I would get that question all the time, like what do I buy? What's the sales content solution? I should buy it? It's like they could be a team of, you know, six sellers and they'd be like, well, it's seismic the best, and you know, seismic certainly scored really well on the wave. But if you're small team without, you know, complex needs in terms of your content, you're tagging of your content, you probably don't need that type of solution. So it is it is really funny. But yeah, of course that reaches the best and marry, you know, be the convergation around how what people aren't getting right and not getting religion on DA. I mean that that hurts so bad from me and got me PTSD from a prior to live that we can likely get add will to be a sponsor right now and I need something to numb that pain. But set but, you know, kind of take it a forward, right. I love the conversation we had, like we're collecting data, we're understanding how to separate the signal from the noise. We're understanding how to take the signal make it information. That next step, but like information to action or change. I mean that's an area I feel like is underserved as well, where you get the insides and everyone looks at each other like now what? Yeah, I mean this is a this is a really interesting topic because to me it's all about speed of insight and getting to the point where you can get insights and people's hands and get them in their hands fast so they're useful. And then also there's another concept, especially for sales, that people are going to have to get comfortable with, which is uncertainty. No AI engine or system is going to say a hundred percent of the time. You do this, I think a lot of sales are up. Think next best action is just basically turning me into a robot. No, no, it's going to be here's the next best action. Eighty percent of the time, if you take this action, it leads to this result, and then the rep can analyze the situation and go, okay, that's good information, but I'm not going to use it this time because I know this client and they're going to go this way. So then it's a matter of just doing that, logging it, and then now you can see how it goes and then you create another insight. So once you get your data structure right, it allows you to go fast accurately. Then you can start really using getting your sales teams comfortable with here's the likelihood. And that's a weird thing because a lot of times we talk in certainties, but the future with the with these tools, isn't going to be in certainties. It's the likelihood of success, is acts, or the likelihood of actual result. Is Why you're going to have to get comfortable with those types of things and I think reps will embrace that, I think, once they know it's not about, Oh, I'm forcing you to do these three things, it's here's what we see in this particular situation. I really love that you said that set because it...

...kind of touches on I think a common misconception that's out there, which is, you know, the bots or the technology is here to kind of take away your jobs, just like e commerce did, but it never did for sales, because people want that human connection and want that consultative experience that you can actually have with a great salesperson. So I think you're right and I think you're it's good that you've surfaced it. It's you know, I see a world in the future, maybe a little bit further out than today, where there's a cockpit that sellers work off of. They have, you know, multiple screens, like traitors, and they've got data inputs that are coming from a range of systems. They work off a one platform, that's their platform of choice, right, and they're making decisions based on that incoming data. But the art of it is that they're going to get recommendations and probabilities, like you said, but at the end of the day they're going to make the decision around what's right for for their customer, their territory of their account, and I think that doesn't get talked about enough. No, and then they're going to be able to evaluate how they perform, where they right, where they walk. Okay, I was right. Okay, then I need to stick with that. Oh crap, I was wrong. Maybe I shouldn't do that next time. Next to what's a little closer. I'm all in, right, and Mary, like I'm with you, like everyone is scared about the robots, right, I mean are they now reach like we're going along on humanity, and I think you hit it well said where it's about insights, but unless you have context, insights are going to work, and that's what the wreck brings in, right. They bring in the context and the situational awareness and and the experience, and having both those two things combined is is kind of critical. Right answer. Yeah, and you, you talk a lot. I mean, look at the people progress right, you make some you make one thing easier, then that allows you to put brain space on something else that's more complex. It's productivity in the world if the more you make the simple easy to do and and take it out of your way, it just allows you to think and to work through more complex scenarios that are in front of you. So I see that with ai it's more around quenching kind of the desire for progression. You want to go forward, you got to get the admin stuff, get the activities out of the way, get the insights out of the way and let me think critically about what these insights meeting and how I want to use them to succeed with my with my customers, exactly. And let's switch gears a little bit, a little bit sets, and I want to talk about sometimes I follow the future of work and I know forester does a lot of great work in that realm and a lot of the different consultancies are writing about the future of work and I read this great book called Ai Superpowers by the former head of Google China. You know, you start to think about what's happening to different types of jobs. Well, five years ago, I think the hottest job coming out of college with STATA scientists. You know, in the future I think it's going to be engineers who can create algorithms and probably mechanics who can fix robots. But you know what, what seems yes, there's there's still hope for...

US Arati if we have to go do something else. But I hope we're not competing Mary. I hope I got my little tool chest over here. But it's funny, you know. So as I'd think about today. What do I think some of the hottest jobs might be in BB sales? Certainly revenue ops is sort of a surfacing up to the top of my list. Like what is the ideal background look like like? We're where should business leaders think about finding these folks or where do they come up through the organizations? What are the attributes in the way this type of individual really sees the world? Yeah, I mean to me and I look at it, because what we're seeing is a lot of organizations buying into the concept, umbrella concept and putting their teams together either through alignment or actual structural changes within the hierarchy of the organization. Where I think your best sales ops leaders are going to come from. You're going to be able to see him right away because they're going to be the ones that get it and embrace the change and start integrating right so they're going to say, okay, I'm in marketing ops, I see sales ops, I see the through line, so I'm going to volunteer to bring both of us together so we can derive value, because the structure and itself isn't going to really do anything for marketing, for revenue operations, where you're going to start seeing the real value is when you start getting people to start pulling the different organizations that will be in the future for revenue operations together to right value. And that's going to happen by the people in it today looking at it and going wait, yeah, I'm the same team I was before, but if I work with this person over and sales operations, this is a whole new world that we can create for our revenue teams. Let's get together and do that. So I think to a certain extent, as you pull these teams together, if you're a leader in this space, you want to look and see who are the people who are really trying to figure out what the real value is outside of the structure and the the proposed alignment. Where is the alignment and where is the alignment that leads to true results and enable that for them and watch them. Those will be your leaders of the future and revenue operations. Yeah, so I have so many different directions I want to go in terms of our questions, but I wanted to sort of put a pin in something. You start, you kind of went back between REV OPS and sales ops, and is revops just to glorify salesops or what? How is revops sort of the different than salesops? Should we be using the words simultaneously or differently? I have an opinion, but I want to hear what you say. Yeah, I mean honestly, I think. I think revenue operations is is business Switzerland for between marketing, sales and customer success. So I think everyone can agree you if you use revenue, and perfectly fine conversation around whether sales or revenue are the same thing. But that's kind of Switzer in there. But it's not sales ops' it's you're going to have marketing ops and sales ops. Usually they're being pulled together under REV ops, but the weird thing is most organizations are pulling them under and keeping them...

...in the same org so that's structurally okay, but it's not going to yield the benefits you're going to get from having an integrated revenue operations organization. You need to have those teams come together, have sales offs and marketing ops come together and say what do we do? Map it all out and say what is our organization look like in revenue operations between these two teams, and this is where we're going to go, because you're not going to get the value by just saying, Oh, I have a REV OPS leader and I'm putting the the sales and marketing ops the same team. They should accomplish where a revops organization that work. Twenty one century branding right, man, great rebranding exercise. One thing I want to talk a little bit about is the concept of marketing and sales alignment, and I believe that revenue opstion, this discipline function will actually finally end that ward. I hope to write some sort of article this year and maybe HBS will pick it up, who knows. But are you seeing? You know from the work that you do, is there are marketing folks dragging their feet? Or so? Are Sales folks dragging their feet? Are some people still wanting to have their own obs function and operate in silos? Or Two folks really realize that it's just sort of one team at this point? Oh, they don't realize. I think most or most people, and it's not just sales, are marketing offs. I think they're just trying to do what they've always done. So to a large extent, I mean change is a very difficult thing, no matter where you are so those in marketing offs struggling with change, those in sales op struggling with change. It's why it's so important for those people who are given the title of Rev ops or given the the ability to influence that, to enable those teams to be willing to change, to want to change, to give them the power to understand what alignment really looks like and make those changes internally with their team, because I think it push comes a shot. People don't like change. So you put them in our organization and you're just going to keep doing what they normally do and sent in the before I forget I'm going to I wrote Down Business Switzerland is my next vacation destination. So sound wonderful. Everybody needs to marry your luggage. So I think they bring up an interesting point in and I throught I want to pull a little bit. You know, I think you've write a revenee operations is that agnostic group that's trying to build out the revenue strategy by breaking silos. But there's an element of that that it's really important. You can of bring it back the earlier conversation, because everyone's trying to get more customer centric and buy or centric. Right, how do I respond? How am I having the right conversations? How do I get the data? But redops can drive that change. Alan. So when you think about the CEA sweet he think about executive sponsor, where does it need to start? Like, WHO's that change agent in the executive Bob all, who brings this thinking in and the conversations you've had? Yeah, it has to eat. I mean you can come from the CEO, it can come from the the CMO, the CR, the the chief sales officer,...

...anyone in that suite that's looking at it and can see it's very clear right like this. I remember, I remember years ago seeing presentations where it's like marketing owns it to sixty percent and from sixty percent sales zones it and that's the way it works. We do a handoff, as like a Bati handoff, and then you have it. We don't do anything anymore. But that doesn't work anymore. It doesn't work like and we can see in the transactions. The digital and nondigital transactions are everywhere. The marketing and sales to it a transactions are completely interspersed within that sales process. So just seeing that any executive in a company that sees that now looks at their organization and sees marketing down this hall and sales down this hall has to be looking at it going. How on Earth am I going to give a great experience, both digital and nondigital, to my buyers when these two teams don't talk to each other? So I mean I think anyone who looks at that that has the ability to make this change would see that and be very anxious about the future of their sales or their future sales growth with it being separate. So I think you can come from anyone that has the ability to make that change and it's quick fall on on that Seb. I mean I think your spot on right. I mean I think it's kind of matter of it. It's when and it's probably now about process people to have. Whether you're in the enterprise and you have the Behem it that you're trying to figure out, how do I get this mindset in there? You're small company. Both have that. Probably have the same question like how do you start? But where do you start? Yeah, I mean for me I look at it is I like the idea of executive sponsorship for alignment, but feel at field let or roll level sponsorship for path so if I'm looking at where I want to go as a revenue operations team, senior leadership, Set the Vision on where you see this going and why it's important, but then empower the people that are going to be a part of this man of change to be able to determine what that looks like and present to you how they're going to get there. By doing that it allows people who are really scared of change, like we all are, to really have a voice in it, but then also have guard rails to know this is what we're trying to accomplish. So build the pathway with me to go get to that, to get to that goal. So says, how do you get started? Like what if you're not, you know, a newer sophisticated company, like you know, one of the big tech companies, or you don't have her reason his team you know with you, like, how do you coach your clients and others that maybe at different stages of the maturity Continuum to get started? What? What's how do you get started? The simple piece is what a lot of people are doing already. It's around alignment, out of Aligne. What do I want to do which parts of the organization will come together. But it goes back at that point, once you get to alignment, it really becomes about what's the best way to make the most out of this alignment you've put these two teams under and told them to align. You've got to get definitions of what it looks like.

So, regardless of the size of the team, could be a hundred people or could be five people. You've got to understand the alignment, where you want to go and why it's important from a buyer perspective and the value they're going to get, and then empower the people who are experts in those teams to be able to help mold the process and steps and activities that need to be taken to provide that a ligne sales process or that aligned sales approach and marketing approach to to your buyers. Got It. So I want to talk a little bit about sort of the as a service delivery model and do you feel that companies that have adopted that model and that that's really been an accelerant for revenue ops, just given that, like you said, there's it's not a linear cycle anymore. Yeah, I definitely think it has and it's been an accelerant for for revenue opps. And also with revenue opps, pulling in customer success, especially with the customer success element, becomes significantly more important in an SAS environment, especially in one where you your have to prove your worth every every month. You have to prove that you're providing the value that you committed to from the beginning. So you've got to have customer success on more because they're the people who are helping facilitate that and then are also understand what is and isn't working from a marketing standpoint. I think there are some things that are that are very similar. It's a different go to market, but and there's some different things you'll do once you're engaged. But I think it the real emphasis get. It really pulls in customer success as a critical element within that revenue operations function. Yeah, absolutely, and you know, one of the other things I was thinking about is, what if I wanted to create a revenue opps function at my company and potentially put myself up to run that piece the organization and reach. This could very well be for you as well this question, but I'd love to know how you both think about how do you think about the row of the function and the discipline for an organization? So you're sitting with a CEO and the CEO says, okay, you know, I'm willing to fund this organization. What am I going to get back? Have you all been able to deliver and communicate? Communicate and deliver. That are a lie as part of some of the work that you've done or you've observed self. Yeah, I mean I've seen in a couple different ways. The sad thing is in a lot of companies, not a lot of companies, but in some companies, they use it as a catalyst to restructure and it becomes of a way to kind of right size the organization to what they want it to be. So it isn't necessarily a buy into revenue operations as an enabler. It's more of a hey, we want to make some tinuity that our organ this works for us, so we're going to make those changes. But the teams who are really getting our why are the ones that understand and identify the gaps that that are presented by not working together, the things that aren't happening, the wind rates that are dropping because you're disconnected with how you communicate and you're not communicating as on sales and marketing team to the buyer. So the ones that are really successful are looking at that...

...and saying here's where we think we are, we've looked at it, we're not performing well, and then they build the revenue operations team to amplify or to improve that. How they how they sell to those buyers and can very easily see this is what we're delivering before. Now look at what we're delivering. I think when you talk about cadence technology, that's a place where you really can see it. I think one of the reasons why sales engagement platforms have taken off so much is because there's a very clear path to understanding how to derive value from these systems because you can provide it, you can understand what works and you can amplify it across a larger team in a really, really good way that drives tangible, real results. So you see that and you can prove it. Yeah, and said it. said. I mean, I couldn't agree with you more. And then I think there's a nuance here. Mary and said talked about in the prior two questions. You got to get executive. Buy It right to do rent bomps right. It's not a it's not a balant. Eat Our income statement line where you're looking at. Okay, where am I saving money and whereas how do I free lock facts? You're putting the lens on. Okay, they're two things. I want to get better. How I acquire customers and how I unlock lifetime value. And that customer journey it needs an owner and that owner needs to be able to orchestrate all these different teams across the company, create the systems of orchestration, pull that data, separate signal from noise, drive information, drive pain. So you got to buy into that and the outcome is on those on the journey right. You look at cost of acquisition, you know efficiency, activation, lifetime value and you can look at things like NPS and they're derivative metrics that. That's the religion that the leadership team needs to have, because there's an element of seeing the problem, investing in revop to solve the problem, but then building a culture to empower them right, because your Credi rebobs team, but then you're marketing leader and sales lead and everyone else like, look, I don't have to listen to anything that redops does. Then you're just blushed a lot of good money down that you know what right. So and I think that's where the evolution of redops is kind of getting to. Maturity. Model is like the empowerable. It's moving from an orb to an empowered mindset, and that's the exciting part. I mean, at least how I look at it. Said me now. Hopefully that resumes. I want for for sure. One of the things that I've seen with corporations is or that that people need to do. Take a chance on actually delivering the number. Before you make the orb change, identify the change that you want to deliver, the Roi you want to deliver, and be courageous enough to stand up and say this is the number we're working towards and allow your organization around better win rates and improved delivery increase sales, put those numbers out there and task that team that you've put together to go deliver those numbers. But...

...that's always hard to do because people are nervous about being wrong all, but it's the only way to really get get true value out of these groups. Well, perfects APP it would cover a lot of ground. This has been fantastic. We really appreciate your time and thoughtfulness in this discussion for the audience. Hopefully a lot of great takeaways on you know why revops, how to do it, how to get a ride, putting a lot. Hopefully you're creating a lot more thought and creativity and how you're thinking about the function. And with that we're going to end this episode. Please go to sales hacker revenee operations community for rest of the episodes on revenue innovators. Thank you said. Thank you, Mary, and everyone will talk to you soon. Thank you for listening to the Revenue Innovators podcast. We want to keep the show really relevant and we want to hear from you. Tell us what you like most or what you like to hear by leave us a rating and a review. But of course we are partial to the number five. And if you're a revenue innovator and are not part of the sales hacker community yet, you're missing out. Go to sales hackercom and become a member, ask questions, get fast answers and share experiences with Twentyzero. Like minor professionals, were shaking up things in their own organizations. Thanks, serice. So we'll see all back here on this podcast every other week, where you learn from the world's most disruptive revenue innovators.

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