The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 4 months ago

Revenue Innovators: The Future of Leadership in RevOps

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This episode is from our sister podcast, Revenue Innovators. For more episodes like this, subscribe to Revenue Innovators in your favorite podcast player.

Revenue Operations is the business version of Switzerland. In providing a neutral ground for marketing, sales, and customer success, RevOps must also analyze contexts to convey insights quicker. To win at this will take great RevOps leadership.

In this episode, we interview Seth Marrs, Research Director at Forrester, about the role of analysis in building RevOps into a role that amplifies the voice of the buyer.

In this episode we discuss:

  • Why RevOps is blowing integration out of the water
  • How to invest in data that actually drives insights
  • The ideal attributes of RevOps leaders
  • Peacemaking among departments (aka alignment)

Welcome to revenue innovators, thepodcast powered by outreach, where we o skip the usual podcast guests and gostraight to the source of true revenue. Innovation will interview madscientists, revenue destructors from all kinds of surprising industries. Youknow mary. All of these folks have something in common. These are peoplethat are looking to the future and not looking backward, and you know when weget them on the podcast, there's going to be some hot gossip and real numbertop that we push them to. We love the hot mike. Yes, we do, and where areyour hosts, i'm mary? She global innovation of angeles set out reach andon the rich, mohan senior vice president of revenue. Action operationsalso without rachmet us here every week, and we promise to keep it spicy for you.So, let's get to it. Welcome sess, it's great to have you sofor everyone. Who's joining us today we have set mars, is a principal analystat forester, forester decisions, serious forester decisions. What is itsays? It is forester decisions that that'll be the product line, forestersstill the company. So that's the headline. Okay, so you're still you'rea forster analyst, but you work on behalf of the new forester decisions,product line, absolutely yep. You got it perfect, perfect. Well, it's reallygreat to have you here as our inaugural guests and for those of you don't knowses and i work together for a couple of years now and we're also very very goodfriends. He does a tremendous amount of really exciting research in the revenueoperation space but says for those of the folks who are with us today. Whoactually aren't analysts, tell us a little bit about what you do day today.What's the day in the life of semas, look like yeah, so it's a fun time tobe an analyst, it's always say, and for a force through decisions analyst atwhat we do is we split our time. Part of our time is spent with our clients,working with them handling kind of the the issues that they have, that theybring to us and we provide them research guidance. We use our expertiseas a force of decisions. Analyst we've been in the field we have practitionerexperience, usually twenty years or so so that's that's a big part of our dayand the other side of it is doing research and understanding andtranslating kind of the things we're seeing in the market, from our clientsto what we're seeing from vendors to what we're seeing play out in our ownresearch, just in the space in general and writing reports and and documentsthat that can then be used to help clients and vendors and and anyone.That's that we're working with produce better results, so lots of differentstreams of activity, i'm certain you're, never bored right, never bore answer.It's such an exciting space, as you well know, i mean it's all it's a lotof fun. I got to admit,...

...awesome and set you on getting to thetopic today right and we're talking about this priors. We are thinking hour.What to talk about. I b n thou is at mc hammer vanilla. I then the kiddos wentof the cloud two and tans is all social. Now, every day i wake up, and all wehear about is revenue operations, revenue operations rebosa? Why is it sohot like well? Why are we the new mc hammer i really are? Aren't we need to get theparachute pants? Oh i'm sure he got them on right now, yeah yeah mora. Well,i think a big part of it is companies have started to see it. I would look atit and say: if you look at the bc space, you can't really survive without beingintegrated and you're. Seeing that kind of move they always lead the way andyou're. Seeing that move over and and be to be leaders in both the marketingsales customer success are looking at this going wow. If we don't getourselves streamline, we won't be able to respond to customers in the bestpossible way and the cool part is you've, seen companies kind ofintegrate it and take it on and put it in from a structural standpoint, but idon't think we've even scratch the surface of actually doing it actuallyintegrated fully delivered revenue operations. I think that we're at thebeginning stage of that as companies are starting to get aligned and reallystarting to rev up that engine. So i think the best is yet to come.Definitely in the nation scene and it's sa double clik a little bit so thinkyou mentioned something really. He is the tranter seeing right now and be tobe and with red bobs like it's, not new right. I we're catching on the flywheel of what what's been happening, the bbc roll and would dat like. What'sthe inflection bal like what wise be to be now going through that revolution,sep yeah, i mean, i think the initial piece was was just looking at it andseeing where what was coming. But now i think we're starting to see someforcing mechanisms that are pulling suspecha sales and market together andactually customer success as well i'm seeing from a sales standpoint. Salesare being pulled more into customer success, type responsibilities becausethey're going to have they have to spend more time delivering for theircustomers, making sure they're satisfied with the product and on themarketing side. I think one of the big catalyst is around sales engagement.That tool has come into play and it's being used both by sales and marketing.We do inquiry both on the marketing side for r, drs or brs. Sdrs is atypical term and we do it on the sales and marketing side for those groups andfor inside sales and the implementation of that tool. The drive auto madautomation into sales, with creating some real kind of understanding of thepower of putting those two together and you've got kind of the the the superstars on the marketing side that really understand the automation andunderstand how customers are using or are looking into their products,digitally combined with the sales eaters who are really experts on.What's happening face to face the...

...relationships, deep relationships withcustomers and you've got this platform, that's kind of pulling them togetherand they're. Saying wait wow this this world, where we can leverage bothautomation and in person all together and optimize each stuff in the process.There's some power in this. We really need to. We really need to step forwardand work together to make it happen. Yeah. I agree with that sets and ithink, in addition to the automation in person connection, the intelligence nowis a piece that we continue to hear so much more and more about, and you knowthe intelligence really follows the data which one of the reasons i thinkengagement. As we know the category today is at the center at the heart ofall of this is because we're able to capture and automatically outblow allof these human behavioral interactions is part of the buying and sellingexperience, and with that increase amount of data, you can do more andmore things and to me that that sort of is a fly wheel. That horace was talkinga little bit about that puts revenue, ops back on the map and in a positionto be so influential within the organization. Yeah. Absolutely and thecrazy thing is man: most companies really struggle with it like it justisn't working i gain, i think, when you have it in a sales engagement platformwhere it can be integrated together, you're starting to get just a glimpseof the power of putting together the pieces that are integrated in onesystem. What's going to come when you starttaking all these different pieces and pulling all of them into those systemsto really amplify the voice of a buyer and what they need to understand, thebest way to interact at the sales rap and combining those together, it'sgoing to be it's amazing, you put in tent data, you put win lost it and youstart aggregating them. It's powerful stuff! A in set up be cure. You have afront seat row i'll, be ver cursing. When you say a lot of company strugglewith is a cultural is it systems? Is a data like where's the friction therethe blindest way? I could put his time and money when you're being asked todeliver it's very easy to buy a sales text, solution, put it in place and getsome value from it, and it's optically you could see something has happened.Data is slow and expensive. If you really want structured data, now it'sslow and expensive at the beginning, right, you have to get it understood,organized set up and running once you have it running, it's incrediblypowerful and you can keep it going. It's very hard for businesses that aremoving so fast to take the time to step back, organize himself, invest insomething that won't tangel tangibly be seen by executives or by those peoplewho are going to be investing. What will be a fair amount of money to getthat integrated system. So it's this kind of thin, eventually what's goingto happen, is just going to be forced because you're going to have this aiwave where everyone's excited about ai and then down the line they're going togo. Why is an a i working? The way i want and we're going to be root causinginto it and going is because your data,...

...no good, so if you want, if you want,if you want great insight to need great datas, unfortunately, that's just kindof the way it works, and you have been invested here so you're not getting thereturn here. Yeah, it's interesting. I keep thinking about data so much andharichand. I had been talking a lot about dat, an i was thinking about thattwo thousand and six quote where the british mathematician, i think wasclive humby said data is the new oil of the twenty first century. You know sortof unrefined or unstructured it's meaningless, but once you start to putsome structure behind it, it's going to really feel where we go so yeah. I mean,i think i think the data piece is so so important in the engagements that youhave and the clients that you work with in your role says: what are the oneswho are getting it right in terms of really taking a step back and puttingsomeone in charge of data and having a data officer and and really buildingputting in place of building blocks who's? Getting it right or you know,not necessarily any names, but what are they doing and how are they doing it?Because i think this is a huge barrier to success for so many companies thatwe talk to yeah i mean there's, there is the datalayer which is really setting back, and i mean it starts very simply. How doyou define an account? How do you integrate in a count structure? What isyour source of truth for those things, so it's kind of mundane to a certaindegree if you think about it, but hugely important, because if you knowyour account now, sales and marketing could work together to tag team thataccount and make sure that you're taking care of them as best as possiblethat you're approaching the buyers with the best possible mess combined message.So you have to start kind of with the steps of understanding things thatpeople don't want to talk about. Like governance, understanding, architecture,understanding those pieces, you got to get that part right, so thecompanies that seem to be doing that really well are going beyond justinvesting and saying. Okay, i'm going to buy a data set, i'm going to do that.They have a philosophy around their data and they work to make sure thatit's structured, so they can drive insights and they can add to it. One ofthe extra things you see with data scientists is data. Scientist spendsixty seventy percent of their time. Munging data like trying to figure outhow to make it talk to him, because it's so messed up, eventually you'regoing to have what, if you can fix that up front, then you can have thosescientists and people who really know how to get extract insights from datafocus on building the aggurate algorithms to really help you grow andimprove versus trying to figure out. What's what so, that's one side of it,the other one is really having a philosophy around around your text back.How does it work? Where does it start? What do you want to do for you as acompany, i can't tell you how many times companies will go in and say.Okay, i want a sales engagement platform.What's the best one on the market? Well, it's not about the best one on themarket. It's not best one for you on the market and you have to understandwhat you a need as a company and what you specifically did go by the product.That's going to engage your base and...

...the people that need to do the work inthe best possible way and that it doesn't necessarily reflect quoteunquote what the best is. It reflects. What features are most valuable to you,yeah, that's so interesting. You say that, of course, we do know thatoutreach is the best of the best, so i'm takin for that opportunity. But nojust what you said resonates with me. So much says, because in my six yearsis an analyst i would get that question all the time like. What do i buy?What's the sales content solution, i should buy and it's like they could be.A team of you know. Six cellars and they'd be like well if seismic the best-and you know sizi- certainly scored really well on the wave, but if you'rea small team without you know complex needs in terms of your content, yourtagging of your content, you probably don't need that type of solution, so itis. It is really funny, but yeah, of course, that reaches the best and marryyou know be. The conversation around had what people aren't getting rightand not getting religion on dat. I mean that not hurt so bad. For me, i got mepts de from a prior to live that we can like, like an ad, will to be a sponsorright. Now i got. I need something to none that pain, but seven, you know kind of taking abolli. I love the conversation we had like we're collecting data, we'reunderstanding how to separate the signal from the noise. We'reunderstanding how to take the signal make an information that next step, alike information. Action are changed, i mean best in area, feel like is underserved as well, where you get the insides and everyone looks at eachother like now. What yeah i mean this is. This is a really interesting topicbecause to me it's all about speed of insight and getting to the point whereyou can get insights in people's hands and get them in their hands fast tothey're, useful and then also there's another concept, especially for salesthat people are going to have to get comfortable with, which is uncertainty.No ai engine or system is going to say a hundred percent of the time you dothis. I think a lot of sales rup think next best action is just basicallyturning me into a robot. No, no! It's going to be here's the next best action.Eighty percent of the time, if you take this action at least to this result andthen the rap can analyze the situation and go okay, that's good information,but i'm not going to use it this time, because i know this client and they'regoing to go this way. So then it's a matter of just doing that logging itand then now you can see how it goes and then you you create another insight.So once you get your data structure right, it allows you to go fastaccurately. Then you can start really using getting your sales teamscomfortable with here's the likelihood and that's a weird thing, because a lotof times we talk in certainties, but the future with the with these toolsisn't going to be in certainty. It's the likelihood of success is act, sothe likelihood of x result is why you're going to have toget comfortable with those types of things, and i think rotselaer that ithink once they know it's not about. Oh i'm forcing you to do these threethings. It's here's! What we see in...

...this particular situation. I reallylove that you said not set because it kind of touches on. I think, a commonmisconception. That's out there, which is you know the bots or the technology,is here to kind of take away your jobs just like he commerce did, but it neverdid for sales because on that human connection and want that consultativeexperience that you can actually have with a great sales person. So i thinkyou're right and i think it's good- that you've surfaced it. It's you knowi see a world in the future may be a little bit further out than today,where there's a cockpit that sellers work off of they have. You knowmultiple screens like traitors and they've got data inputs that are comingfrom a range of systems. They work off a one platform, that's their platformof choice, right and they're, making decisions based on that incoming data,but the art of it is that they're going to get recommendations andprobabilities, like you said, but at the end of the day, they're going tomake the decision around what's right for for their customer, their territoryof their account, and i think that doesn't get talked about enough now andthen then they're going to be able to valiat how they perform where theyright, where they wall. Okay, i was yer. Okay, t! I need to stick with that. Ohcrap! I was wrong. Maybe i shouldn't do that next time. Next, on the wholeposter, i'm all in right in mary, like i'm withyou like, everyone, is scared about the robots right i mean ye brother, and nowwe tiere going long on humanity, and i think you hit it well said where it'sabout insides, but unless you have context, insides are going to work andand that's what the rect brings in right. They bring in the context in thesituational awareness and and the experience and having both those twothings combined is is kind of critical right answer. Yeah and you talk a lot.I mean look at the people, progress right, you make some. You make onething easier than that allows you to put brain space on something else.That's more complex, it's productivity in the world! If the more you make thesimple easy to do, and and take it out of your way, it just allows you thinkand to work through more complex scenarios that are in front of you. Soi see that with a i, it's more around quenching kind of the desire forprogression. You want to go forward. You got to get the adman stuff, get theactivities out of way, get the insights of the way, and let me think criticallyabout what these insights mean and how i want to use them to succeed. With mywith my customers exactly and let's switch scars a little bit a little bitsets, and i want to talk about. Sometimes i follow the future of workand i know forester does a lot of great work in that realm, and a lot of thedifferent consultancies are writing about the future of work, and i readthis great book called ai super powers by the former head of google, china.You know you start to think about what's happening to different types ofjobs well, five years ago, i think the hottest job coming out of college wasstata scientist you know in the future. I think it's going to be engineers whocan create algorithms and probably mechanists, who can fix robots, but...

...you know what what i yeast's still hope for us to reship. Wehave to go to something else, but i hope we're not competing mary. I hopewe- i got my little til chest over here,but it's funny you know so, as i think about today. What do i think some ofthe hottest jobs might be in betyars? Certainly, revenue of some is servicesurfacing up to the top of my list like what is the ideal background, look likelike, where should business leaders think about finding these folks orwhere do they come up through the organizations? What are the attributesin the the way this type of individual really sees the world yeah? I mean tome when i look at it because we're seeing is a lot of organizations buyinginto the concept umbrella concept and putting their teams together, eitherthrough alignment or actual structural changes within the hierarchy of theorganization, where i think your best sales opler are going to come fromyou're going to be able to see them ride away because they're going to bethe ones that get it and embrace the change and start integrated right. Sothey're going to say: okay, i'm in marketing off, i see sales off. I seethat the through line, so i'm going to volunteer to bring both of us together,so we can derive value because the structure in itself isn't going toreally do anything for marketing for revenue operations where you're goingto start seeing the real value is when you start getting people, it startpulling the different organizations that will be in the future for revenueoperations together to the right value and that's going to happen by thepeople in it today. Looking at it and going wait, yeah i'm the same team iwas before, but if i work with this person over and sales operations, thisis a whole new world that we can create cora revenue teams, let's get togetherand do that. So i think, to a certain extent as you pull these themestogether. If you're a leader in this space, you want to look and see who arethe people who are really trying to figure out what the real value isoutside of the structure and the the proposed alignent? Where is thealignment, and where is the alignment that leads the true results and enablethat for them and watch them? Those will be your leaders of the future andrevenue operations yeah? So i have so many different directions. I want to goin terms of our questions, but i wanted to sort of put a pin in something yousort of you kind of went back between revolts and sales offs and is rev opsjust to glorify sales of or what. How is revo sort of that different thansales ops? Should we be using the words simultaneously or differently? I havean opinion, but i want to hear what you say: yeah i mean honestly. I think ithink revenue operations is is business switzerland for between marketing salesand customer success. I think everyone can agree, as i you revenue wouldperfectly fine a conversation around whether sales or revenue are the samething, but that's kind of switzerland there, but it's not sales off. It'syou're going to have marketing offs and sales, ops, usually they're, beingpulled together under rebo, but the weird thing is: most organizations arepulling them under and keeping them in...

...the same work. So that's structurallyokay, but it's not going to yield the benefits you're going to get fromhaving an integrated revenue operations organization you need to have thoseteams come together. Have sales off and marketing ops come together and saywhat do we do map it all out and say? What is our organization look like inrevenue operations between these two teams? And this is where we're going togo because you're not going to get the value by just saying? Oh, i have areopend and i'm putting the the sales and marketing of so sane missionaccomplished, word revo organization to twenty brandy, a great rebrandingexercise. One thing i want to talk a little bit about is the concept ofmarketing and sales alignment and i believe that revenue, ops on thisdiscipline and function will actually finally end that war and i hope, towrite some sort of article this year and maybe hbs will pick it up. Whoknows, but are you seeing you know from the work that you do? Is there aremarketing folks dragging their feet or our sales folks dragging their feet, orsome people still wanting to have their own of function and operate and silosor or do folks really realize that it's just sort of one team? At this point?Oh, they don't realize, i think most organ most people and it's not justsales or marketing off. So i think they're just trying to do what they'vealways done so to a large extent, i mean change is a very difficult thing,no matter where you are so those in marketing off struggling with changethose and sales out struggling with change. So why it's so important forthose people who are given the title of rebot or given the the ability toinfluence that to enable those teams to be willing to change, to want to change,to give them the power to understand what alignment really looks like andmake those changes internally with their team, because i think it pushcomes a show. People don't like change, so you put them in our organization andthen they're just going to keep doing what they normally do and sedente.Before i forget i'm going to, i wrote down business. Switzerland is my nextvacation destination, so sound wonderful, everybody needs a beryluggage, so i think i b have an interestingpoint and a to i want to pall a little bit. You know i think, you've rite arevenue operations is that agnostic group that trying to build out therevenue strategy by breaking silos, but there's an element of that that isreally important. You can to bring back the earlier conversation becauseeveryone's trying to get more customer, centric and buyer centre right. How doi respond? How am i having the right conversation? How do i get the data,but revo can't drive that change along. So when you think about the c sweet,you think about the executive sponsor, where does it need to start like who'sthat change agent in the executive bible? Who brings this thinking in in aconversation you bad yeah, it has to i mean it could come from the co. It cancome from the the cm, the cr, the the...

...chief sales officer. Anyone in thatsweet, that's looking at it and can see it's very clear right, like th. Iremember i remember years ago seeing presentations where it's like marketinghuns into sixty percent and from sixty per cent sale zones it and that's theway to work. We do a hand office like a batin hand off, and then you have it.We don't do anything anymore, but that doesn't work anymore. It doesn't worklike god, we can see in the transactions. The digital and nondualtransactions are everywhere. The marketing and sales to transactions arecompletely interspersed within that sales process. So just seeing that anyexecutive in a company that sees that now looks at their organization andsees marketing down this hall and sails down, this hall has to be looking atand going how on earth am i going to give a great experience, both digitaland non digital, to my buyers, when these two teams don't talk to eachother? So i mean, i think, anyone who looks at that that has the ability tomake this change would see that and be v very anxious about the future oftheir sales, so their future sales growth with it being separate, so ithink, can come from anyone that has the ability to make that change, andit's quick to fall on. On that sad, i mean, i think i think your spot onright. I mean, i think, it's kind of matter of if it's when and it'sprobably now the bout cross, people trave now what you in the enterpriseand you have the boheme and you're trying to figure out. How do i get thismindset in there of your small company? Both ambat probably have the samequestion like how do you start, but where do you start yeah? I mean for me.I look at it. Is i like the idea of executive sponsorship for alignment,but feel that feel our role level sponsorship for path? So, if i'mlooking at where i want to go as a revenue operations, team seniorleadership accept the vision on where you see this going and why it'simportant, but then empower the people that are going to be a part of thismassive change to be able to determine what that looks like and present to youhow they're going to get there by doing that, it allows people who are reallyscared of change like we all are to really have a voice in it, but thenalso have guard rails to know. This is what we're trying to accomplish sobuild the pathway with me to go. Get that to get to that goal. Success. Howdo you get started like what, if you're, not you know a never sophisticatedcompany like you know one of the big tech companies or you don't have herrashon his team. You know with you like how do you coach your clients andothers that may be at different stages of the maturity continuing to getstarted? What is it what s? How do you get started? The simple peace is what alot of people are doing already it's around a linen at oilin. What do i wantto do which parts of the organization will come together, but it goes back atthat point. Once you get to alignment, it really becomes about. What's the best way to make the mostout of this alignment, you've put these two teams under and told them to align.You've got to get definitions of what...

...it looks like so, regardless of thesize of the team, could be a hundred people or could be five people you'vegot to understand the alive where you want to go and why it's important froma buyer perspective and the value they're going to get and then empowerthe people who are experts in those teams to be able to help mould theprocess and steps and activities that need to be taken to provide that alignsales process or that aligned sales approach and marketing approach to to your buyers got it. So i want totalk a little bit about sort of the as a service delivery model, and do youfeel that companies that have adopted that model and that that's really beenan accelerant for revenue? Ops? Just given that, like you said there, it'snot a linear cycle anymore yeah. I definitely think it has, and it's beenan accelerated for revenue, ops and also with revenue op pulling incustomer success, especially with the customer success element becomesignificantly more important in an sas environment, especially in one whereyou you're ave, to prove your worth every every month you have to improvethat you're, providing the value that you committed to from the beginning. Soyou've got to have customer success on board because they're the people whoare helping facilitate that and then are also understand what is and isn'tworking from a marketing standpoint. I think there are some things that arethat are very similar. It's a different go to market, but and there's somedifferent things. You'll do once you're engaged, but i think the real emphasisget. It really pulls in customer success as a critical element withinthat revetu operations function. Yeah absolutely, and you know, one of theother things i was thinking about is what, if i wanted to create a revenueox function at my company and potentially put myself up to run thatpiece of the organization and heresies could very well be for you as well.This question, but i'd love to know how you both think about how do you thinkabout the ry of the function and the discipline for an organization soyou're sitting with the ceo and the ceo says: okay, you know i'm willing tofund this organization. What am i going to get back? Have you all been able to deliver and communicate, communicateand deliver that or ly as part of some of the work that you've done or you'veobserved set yeah, i mean i've seen it in a couple different ways. The sadthing is in a lot of companies, not a lot of companies, but in some companiesthey use it as a catalyst to restructure and it becomes a way tokind of right size, the organization to what they want it to be, so it isn'tnecessarily a by into revenue operations as an enabler. It's more ofa hey. We want to make some changes at our organ. This works for us, so we'regoing to make those changes, but the teams who are really gettingour y are the ones that understand and identify the gaps that that arepresented by not working together, the things that aren't happening, the winrates that are dropping because you're disconnected with how you communicateand you're, not communicating as one sales and marketing team to the buyer.So the ones that are really successful...

...are looking at that and saying here'swhere we think we are we've looked at it, we're not performing well, and thenthey build the revenue operations team to amplify or to improve on it, howthey, how they sell to those buyers and can very easily see. This is what wewere delivering before now. Look at what we're delivering. Ithink when you talk about cadens technology, that's a place where youreally can see it. I think one of the reasons why sales engagement platformshave taken off so much is because there's a very clear class tounderstanding how to derive value from these systems, because you can provideit, you can understand what works and you can amplify it across a larger teamin a really really good way that drives tangible, real results. So you see thatand you can prove that yeah and sad. I said i mean i couldn't agree with youmore and then i think there's a new one here, mary, except talked about in theprior two questions. He got to get executive by it like do rebot right.It's not a it's, not a balance. Reader income, statemen wine, where you'relooking at okay- where am i saving money, and where is how do i prettyaffects your putting the lens on okay? There are two things i want to getbetter, how i acquire customers and how i unlock lifetime value and thatcustomer journey it needs an owner and the order need to be able toorchestrate all these different teams across the company create the systemsof orchestration, pull that data. Separate signal from noise driveinformation, bride pain, so you got to buy in a bat and the outcome is onthose on the journey right. You look at costa, bac, quistion, you knowefficiency activation lifetime value and you can look at things like ps andtheir derivative metrik that that's the religion that the leadershipteam needs to have because there's an element of seeing the problem investingin revo to solve the problem, but then building a culture to empower themright, because you could have reb ob team, but then you're marking leaderand sales lead and everyone else like. Well, i don't have to listen toanything that red bobs does an you just pushed a lot of good money down to youknow what right so, and i think that's where the evolution of red bobs is kindof getting to re maturity model is like the empower it's moving from the orb toan empowered mindset and that's the exciting part. I mean at least i i lookat it at me and hopefully that resume at an o for sure one of the things thati've seen with corporations is or that that people need to do take a chance on actually deliveringthe number before you make. The org change identify the change that youwant to deliver the roi. You want to deliver and be courageous enough to stand up andsay this is the number we're working towards and allow your organizationaround better win rates, improve delivery, increase sales, put thosenumbers out there and task that team...

...that you put together to go, deliverthose numbers, but that's always hard to do, because people are nervous aboutbeing wrong. But it's the only way to really get gettrue value out of these groups well, perfect step. It would cover alot of ground. This has been fantastic. We really appreciate your time, mentholess, in this discussion for the audience, hopefully a lot of greattakeaways on you know why revo how to deal with how to get a right, putting alot hope, like your crating, a lot more thought and creativity and how you'rethinking about the function and with that we're going to end this episode,please go to sales hafter rette operations, community for rest of theepisodes on redbeard. Thank you said. Thank you mary, and everyone will talktoo soon. Thank you for listening to the revenue,innovators podcast. We want to keep the show really relevant and we want tohear from you tell us what you like most or what you like to hear by leavea guess, a rating and a review. Of course you are partial to the numberfive and, if you're a revenue innovator and are not part of sales hackercommunity, yet you're missing out, go to sales hacker com and become a member.Ask questions get fast answers and share experiences with twenty thousand,like minor professionals, for shaking up things in their own organizationsthanks ceres. So we'll see you all back here on this podcast every other weekwhere you'll learn from the world's most disruptive revenue, taters t.

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