The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 7 months ago

165. How to Transition into Tech Sales from a Non-SAAS Background

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

165. Lee Berkman

One, two, one, three, three, everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the Sales Haccer podcast.Today in the show we've got Lee Berkman. He's an enterprise account executiveat cloud share. He's had a really interesting life doing all kinds of things, from being a bar man at an English pub in London to selling doorto door in Cape Town, South Africa, and now doing on a price salesfor cloudshare virtualization software out of Tel Aviv. So it's a great conversation. Now, before we get there, we want to talk to and thankour sponsors. The first is outreach out, which has been a longtime sponsored thispodcast, and they just launch a new way to learn outreach. Onoutreaches the place to learn how outreach does outreach. Learn how the team followsup with every lead in record time after virtual events and turns them into revenue. You can also see our our wach ones account basplays, manages reps andso much more using their very own sales engagement platform. Everything is backed upby data pulled from outreach processes in the customer base. When you're done,you'll be able to do it as well as they do. Go to outreachout. I oh forks lash on outreach to see what they've got going on. PODCAST is also brought to you by Pavilion, the company that used tobe known as revenue collective. Pavilion is the key to getting more out ofyour career. Our private membership connects you with a network of thousands of likeminded peers and resources where you can tap into leadership opportunities, training, mentorshipand other services made for high growth leaders like you. With a pavilion membership, you'll build deep connections with peers to expand your expertise and unlike growth opportunities, access the full suite of training and certification programs for sales, marketing customersuccess and unlock over a hundred different job opportunities every week, shared between membersand a trusted in private setting. Unlock your professional potential with a pavilion membershiptoday. Learn more at join PAVILIONCOM. And finally, today's virtual selling environment, Band's a new kind of approach, one that prioritizes the buyer above allelse. As the world's largest professional network, with seven hundred and twenty two millionmembers Linkedin, is the only place where buyers and sellers connect, shareand drive success for each each other every day. Find new ways to connectwith your buyers virtually. With linkedin sales navigator, you can learn more orrequest a free demo at business dot linkedincom forward to life sales solutions. Now, without further ado, let's listen my conversation with Lee Burkman. Everybody,it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the sales hacker podcast. Today on the showwe've got Lee Berkman, Lee's and Enterprise Account Executive at cloud share, wherehe's responsible for helping prospects and customers from startups and large enterprise organizations drive highercustomer acquisition and retention by Leveraging Cloud shares business acceleration platform to provide engaging handson software experiences, such as virtual training and remote demos and POC's anywhere inthe world at any time. Lee brings a rich set of interpersonal skills andtechnical knowledge, having held a variety of international customer facing positions in both consumerand high tech organizations. He grew up in South Africa, has lived inLondon in the US and is currently living in Tel Aviv, Israel. Lee, welcome to the show. Thanks very much for having me. If I'mlike that was quite a mouthful. It was the helpful. You provide itto me. I'm happy to deliver it back to you regurgitated. No,the marketing team does a good job of...

...making me sound established, so I'mvery comfortable with that. Well, we'll try our best to disabuse everybody thatnotion over the course the next twenty to twenty five minutes. I don't thinkyou need that much time. So so you're an enterprise account executive at cloudshow. We like to start with your baseball card, which really means justgiving an opportunity to tell us a little bit more about cloud share. Sowhat is cloud share in your words? I think, in a nutshell,cloud share pro not. I think culture provides a virtual it software environments andexperiences for individuals, for and users. What we do is we help enablebusinesses and companies to deliver an IT solution to an in user, whether thatbe a user for training, for a sale development person basically doing product rollouts, testing Qa or, in the case on the topic where we focusing ontoday, I think more definitely is sales. So you're able to basically enable asales team, will sales engineers, to have a catalog of ready todeploy gem already environments over and above the actual fully functioning software with added assets, materials, guides, and also provide a end user potential buy or abusiness prospect proof of concept to proof of value, a handson spirits versus itagain, a very controlled mechanic. So deleveraging virtualization, easily delivered over aweb browser, no software needed for on anyone's part, or preinstalled software,I should say, because the solution that you want the end user to havewill be utilized within cloud share, and that's what the culture does. Wedeliver virtual experiences, we were, deliver hands on experiences. How long haveyou been at the company? Tell us how old is the company? Howmany employees are like? How do we get a sense for the size ofit? Things like that. So the company has gone through one or twochanges in its life. It's about a fourteen year old organization. I've beenfortunate to be at the company over four years at this point. My Role, as you mentioned, I'm a enterprise account manager, so I'm responsible forworking with new business prospects on adopting evaluating cloudshare. Where past the fifty employeepoint now? So we're kind of an incredibly mature start up in that sensewe have an incredibly well polished and developed product and platform. So we're oneof the funny of industry leaders. WAS FOR GODS to providing these type ofexperiences with the amount of insights and analytics, but still incredibly nimble. That's kindof onto your question. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I guesswhen you describe sort of virtualization and delivery, tell me if I'm off, butit sounds like it's almost like a horizontal tool that can be used inso many different use cases. Do you find it is that accurate and,if so, how did you derive the sort of sales ICP versus the kindof it solution ICP? Is it hard to describe and focus the solution thatcan be used in so many different ways...

...towards a specific use case, inthis case sales, or is it a very natural use case in everybody immediatelyunderstands what you're talking about? That's a great question and depending on the dayyou ask me, I'll probably onto the different way each time. I comefrom the background of selling multiplugs and D lighting and basically put entertaining systems.So moving into high tech and learning what virtualization was was pretty far cry fromand me, I'm still a geek and I like all this stuff, youknow, but it was still the learning curve for me. So we're selling, we're providing solutions to parts of businesses that don't necessarily have the it knowhow to cross virtualization and be able to easily replicate it solutions easily, andthat makes sense. A salesperson doesn't necessarily want to be able to set upa IT infrastructure so that their prospects can, you know, be hands on withit. But when you start being able to show and demonstrate how,with a little bit of it preparation, saving an environment, that can thenbe, once you finish this business focused conversation with potential buyer prospect give themthat hands on experience. In a matter of minutes and a few clicks,the conversation becomes quite simple. The conversation becomes quite easy. So it reallydepends on who we're talking to and we do support so many different departments anddifferent leaders and different roles in organizations we support and we work with and wehave buyers part of the it department in the vision within an organization. Thatconversation, you can imagine, is far more technical focused because they want toget into the egrety about but how many layers are you able to support withcustomized networking too? Very different conversation to a salesperson. Okay, but howam I able to showcase my solution and have insights to how engaged the prospectwas? To very different focuses but in results of really similar in the platformprovides all of it in one in one clean offering against that kind of doesthat help? Yeah, kind of perfect, of course he jobs. Yeah,yeah, I mean they're it absolutely helps. That makes sense to mein my head. So I always want to make sure that I'm translating itready well, and you can hear, like I deal with a lot ofbusiness prospects, that it's always did that make sense? Do you have anyquestions? So you might get that a fair amount. Well, I likethe you know there's a bit of controversy around the phrase does that make sense, but I personally like it a lot, so I'm always happy for you toask it to me and then I can tell you whether it did ornot. I've had so many schools of that particular question. You don't askit because you're insinuating that the person who speaking you doesn't understand it, andI'm, quite frankly, not trying to be too polite. I want toknow if you don't understand it, and you know I Phil I'm not tryingto be sweet, I'm trying to be as effective as possible. You know. So that makes a lot of sense. Speaking of sort of sales techniques andsales background, you know, you mentioned you've been a cloud share foryears. I read in your your bio that you grew up in South Africa. You've lived in London, in the...

US, so essentially all over theworld and then and then came to tell Aviv. So walk us through alittle bit of your story. How did you get to cloudshare? How didyou get to Tell Aviv? How did you originally get into sales? Youmentioned that you were selling home entertainment systems. That sounds like an interesting background tomake this migration. Where to grow up? Give us a little bitof the life story of Lee Berkman. The life story is good fortune andlucky breaks. Then, I guess, taking advantage of a nonstop grew upin Cape Town, South Africa, one of the most gorgeous cities you'll everbe able to visit in your lifetime. Straight out of high school when traveling, I did not study at the Dogo University. I went straight into workingas a water ski instructor, bombing in London and getting my opportunity to beabroad. I came back to South Africa with not in exact, I think, goal of direction and landed up in sales. It wasn't a straight salesposition. I actually landed up in a call center first and the sale directorknocked on the door. But after a year of me basically landing up likemanaging this school center, and he said, Lee, you're gonna have to buya suit, you're going to have to stop wearing colorful socks and you'regoing to come on the road setting with me. I still way colorful socksto this day, but the way, I think caliver socks are a goodconversation starter. I don't think you have anything to be ashamed out. OhNo, no, very proud of it. Very proud I did where I didhave to go buy white and black socks. Had lost it for afew weeks. And Yeah, and that's kind of how my sales started.I was six years for a wholesaler. So of quite different to what Ido now, but still be tob but I never worked in an office,I didn't work behind a desk, I was in my car all the time. That was my office. And you were selling stereo equipment, so notstericaling, but like TV brackets. Ah Day, my cables, speaker,cables, satellite to come, how do you call it? Receivers, youwould say in the America we call them just seatellite, the codas. SoI think we had line items close to twentyzero items, so from AA batteriesto torches to, like I say, larger type of equiping and even solarpanels. And you were selling to retailers, you were selling to businesses that aresetting to make television stations or offices or just anybody. I was sellingto so many different businesses. We were selling to Mama popper shops, weare selling to convenience stores, we were selling to large national, nationwide franchisesand then actual hand you know, honeyman installers. So the amount of peopleI spoke to, the amount of office spaces or McDonald's that I sat into sell was also so fresh and chain, you know, just really interesting.My favorite stores to this day to walk into as a hardware shop.I love a hardware store, so you know, that's where it likes.Is All. This is all across South Africa. This is all across predominant. Came down the Western Cape. No, no, I was. I waspretty much. You know, the longest journeys I did were like eighthour drives to go see clients. Look Pretty Lass. I'm exaggerating, andthat was for five, six years and it was a wonderful experience. Iloved it. I actually still have to the stay very close friends that were, you know, me knocking on their door saying hey, I'd like tosell your flashlight and then saying, listen,...

I'm busy, I don't have timefor you to this day, communicating literally a few hours ago, youknow. So you build these incredible interpersonal relationships with human beings and you learnhow to be a salesperson, you learn how not to be a salesperson.You makes incredible mistakes, come over confident, you become incredible. I'm cheeky naturally, so once I point you start getting cocky with regards to the factthat you work for, because it was a national wide company that I workwas quite a great brand name in caped on so Africa, Ellis, andyou become quite confident that you know people just buy from you. So alot of wonderful learning experiences with sales and after a while I was looking fora change and a fresh start. So what better way than to say I'mtaking a sabbatical, you know, leaving your car at home, renting outyour house and jumping on a plane. Is Roll was my first stop.It was meant to be for five months, six months on a little holiday,and I'm on the same holiday seven years later. And how is it? How do you like living in Israel? You know, this week is aunique time to ask me. I would have a very different answer aweek ago, but I'm very passionate about the country. I love it.It's very it's incredibly unique. It's a real melting pot, to put itmildly, and a fortunate of opportunity. They call it the startup nation.That's as true as can be and I've had more work business opportunities here thanI think I could have ever have had back where I come from and potentiallyin the UK all the states. So I love being in Israel. Ilove the climate, I love the food, the humans here already something special andunique. So very happy here. And with regards to finding work,I had my first jobs here because what happens is you can become a experiencesalesperson in South Africa selling multiplugs and then come to Israel and there's a hugeAnglo focus type of work group in the high tech because you work internationally.So English speakers fall into high tech pretty naturally. I work in sales,so it kind of worked about find a sales position in high tech, exceptfor the fact that's like while you there work in high tech, so youdon't really know how to sell. So I kind of started, I don'tsay square one, but I was a junior and you start as a salesdevelopment representative, you know, trying to get meetings for other account executives.So the first job I got had nothing to do with high tech. Itwas a company that did preparations for organization, that went to conferences and had tobuild like these big lavish stands and marketing materials and stuff, and Iwas an SDR for this. Three months in the job and I was likeit was it was the shortest career choice I ever had. My Way tothe boss, I said listen, this is not working for me, anworking for you. Let's sake hands and say goodbye. then. My nextjob I got was actually at a pretty well known technology company called Walk Me, and that was again just good fortune. Being South African, I found avery reputable high tech recruiter who happens me so African and favors so Africansin general, looking for work, and...

...she was like, Oh, I'vegot this great company I've never heard of. Obviously prior they're looking for a salesdevelopment man. At I sell SDR. Are usually them. The role mymeeting ontos. Yes, no problem, speak to the recruiter. So Sdr. We basically you. I don't have to explain SDR to you,and I'm assuming not your audience. I had no idea what the role entailed, but when she mentioned to me it was US hours, was like Oh, maybe of something UK hours, and we're like, well, we havea CSM position, but it is what is that? I didn't know whatto CSM was. I didn't know. I didn't know these sort of likehigh tech roles, responsibilities and sort of sales flows, sales processes. Youknow, for me it was take a sample, show it to a client, compete on price, compete on features and functionality and land, you know, just general relationship and how quick you can deliver it to my shop.So I said sure, that sounds like a good job to me and Ibecame a customer success manager actually, which was very fortunate because I got thewonderful foundation of understand ending the sort of pre and post sales, of SASSsales cycles and, you know, acquiring a client as one thing in thepre cells pots and then how important it is to nurture and enable them tokeep them as a client. So that was my first position and then,exactly like you said, I became an str first and walk me, andthen had the fortune of meeting cloud share. You know, I'm sure you gotfeedback to the point of your conversations with recruiters and companies that you knowwhat you'd done in South Africa as a wholesaler, driving around, you know, the Western Cape, pitching HDMI cables and flat screen TV brackets had nothingat all to do with tech sales. But I'm sure that probably wasn't quitethe case. What was your experience in terms of the things that were surprisingto you in terms of the sales motion, the sales tactics and techniques, andwhat were the things that were really the same as what you'd experienced inSouth Africa and really weren't as different as people might think they are. Iguess what's not different is you're selling to a person. You're dealing with aperson at the end of the day. I remember when I first became theSales Rep, my question to my managers why are they sales reps? AndI didn't mean it in a funny pastitious way. I meant there's so manyoptions. There's Internet available and that was even before we were on the smartphonetrended such rate we are now. Like it was blackberry back then, buta lot of people weren't even on matchet. So there's pre iphone days. Andyou know what stops by fire? Some looking for a product, goingthrough the phone book, Looking Online, phoning for a product, getting aprice in ordering. It's but why do you need sales people? And Ithink the old truth is people buy from people and I still believe that tothis day. And SAS is an incredibly competitive space because of how smart buyersare, how much information is out there, how much choice is out there,but at the end of the day, Somebody's going to be committing to asolution, but they're also committing to their provider. You're committing to somebodythat's going to support them throughout their adoption,...

...their process. With SASS sales,and I guess what I've learned and I'm going to all speak about,and I guess that's still the same, is with says you're not buying aproduct, you're not going a physical hand you know something that you can gettangible product. You're buying a value propositions and that's going to improve something inyour business flow process, whether that be delivering a hands on experience to yourpotential buyer. You have a SASS solution and you have an IT product thatyou want your potential buyer to be hands on with. In the next twentyminutes, can you find a vendor that can offer that? You know,you get in touch the cloud, you you find that you can, butat the end of the day you still are going to be dealing with ateam and a person that you have to trust. So that's the same whetherI'm selling you a multiplug or whether I'm selling you a annual subscription to helpsupport. You and your two hundred sales engineer delivered demos of your software solution. That that's the same and I'm shocked at like how people think it mightbe different, because it's not. So that was something that surprised me andpeople still maybe don't always see it, but some of the big changes,some of the things that are different, is that not seeing humans facetoface,and you know alls, I'm sure covid has changed so many opinions and waysthat people can sell and do so and just engage. Before covid I didn'thave my Webcam on for every call. Now I do so. Before Webcamwas like a complete standard for me to communicate with people new and existing and, you know, colleagues and prospects and clients. It was virtil call someof us. What we doing now, sitting behind my computer, being ableto read notes while I'm doing it, versus going facetoface, sitting down,having a cup of coffee, getting to a stage. Hopefully we grab abeer with your clients and you know, it's ten minutes business and an hourchatting about their kids and their dogs and all that. So yeah, there'sso many of these running parallels that are exactly the same to me. Peoplebar from people, even if it is through a little computer screen now orwhether you're sitting facetoface. To your point, one thing I think is interesting inthis ass model that I think is still maybe a little controversial or justyou know, it's debatable. It is debated, which is to your pointabout people by from people. There's this experience that you have sometimes in alot of SASS buying buying motions, where the salesperson sells you something. You'vespent a long time building that relationship. Exactly to your point, you thinkthat you're buying from xyc salesperson and then, to your point, into your firstexperience, you then get transferred over to a customer success manager and thecustomer success manager is a different person and a different relationship and it's just different. Sometimes it's better, sometimes it's worse, but it is a break in therelationship between the first person that you experience, who represents the company,the brand in the value proposition, and then the next person who ostensibly,theoretically represents the same things but may approach it from a different perspective. Didthat make a lot of sense to you?...

Did you as somebody that has builtall of these relationships, you know, through doortodoor sales and hand to handsales. Did that not make sense to you? I guess I'm curious. Sometimes people are surprised or confused at the existence of a customer success teamand they say, why doesn't the sales team do that too? So verymuch so. My first role in high tech, as I mentioned, wasAcsm, which is something that I loved because you know, it's a clientnow and you're basically getting them to enjoy what you're offering them. However,the salesperson still kept tabs, like I noticed that from all me days andwhich were really nice lot. In your hundred percent rights and it's common practicethat that is the case. And often the person that goes through the salesjourney, the evaluation, the actual then the curement budget approvals and purchasing culture, for example, is not the person that's going to be using cloudshare movingforward. They get put on to a project team. So you know therelationship almost changes dynamic and who you're dealing with from the client side. Sothere is that, you know, to fold organizations that obviously have the salescycle where it sales per you know, str salesperson, pre sales, likesee, and then CSM. One of the things that I love about cloudshare is the fact that and how we sort of like differentiate ourselves a lotof the time is the fact that we we position ourselves so much so ofand they again, I think it's one of the things that really spoke tome about the company and why I love dealing with our CEO set, ourCEO and all the VP's, actually all the sea level leaders of my company, is we are so, I think, invested in our clients. We takeso much more time to understand the business need align with their goals are. And I do that as well from the get go, you know,not post sale, trying to do the flashy presentation, get a signature andsay adios. It's very much getting that relationship start and actually one of thefirst things will have in like that initial call and Demo, whether I'm doingit, whether my sales engineers facilitating it with me, is like introducing themwith the dynamic of our culture works and say listen, I will be youraccount manager from this initial call pretty much the most of your journey of cloudshare, depending on the needs might Migrat and change and they will be thatsort of handle permanently. But in general, most of the clients that have startedworking with me and some of them have been out for years actually onthe kind of like with cloud show, using clad. Sure I'm still engagedwith them on a, you know, quarterly basis at least. And againthat's not for every account and you focus on exactly where the value is atthe end of the day for your immediate pipeline, for the you know BusinessBank back for cultured benefit. So you're a hundred percent. Writing. Yes, it is a bit Farign to me to just say great, nice tomeet you, thanks to the deal. Good luck with the rest of theteam. I A little bit more emotional, a little bit more attached maybe thanI should be sometimes, but I think it's beneficial to everyone and clearlywe see the benefits to the culture. Like our attention rate of our clientsis really high and the tender as well.

So normally very long term. Wehave clients that have been with us for eight years, nine years,which is pretty great going our churning slow SASS business. Yeah, yeah,so and again again, like it's a competitive space, like I mentioned,like virtual environments, even if it doesn't sound like a common term compared tocrm. That must be a tough place to play as well. I'm notjealous of those guys, but you know there's firm competition. So the factthat clients, you know, are invested in cloud, sure because the platformdoes so well, but because the support on the relationship is so that reallyvalued. Again, that was an incredibly long with it on. So thatI hope kind of still touch strengths to and then. And you know that'sthat's where I'm going's my comfort zone, I guess. Is that a relationshipbuilding? Yeah, well, don't worry about being long winded. First ofall, there's drilling in the background here and in my building, I think, in New York. So listen to you is better than listening to thedrill thing. But also you're the guest, so you're allowed to be long winded. I'm the person that needs to be concise. Where we were almostat the end of our time together. But one of the things that yousort of said in the past that I think is interesting. I would justlove to hear a little bit more of your thoughts about it. We askthe question in sort of when we're prepping for the interview, we say what'swas something you believe that others don't, and your response was life is easy. When you say that, tell me what you mean. How do youapproach it? What is how does that relate to your philosophy? I'm justpersonally curious. So life's easy is a silly thing to say because it's notthe truth and things that matter will often be the most challenging. A lotof the time relationships are hard to keep strong with it. If you withfamily, would that be with your partner, your kids? But the truth is, like I grew up, I was a dyslexic kid. I wasn'tgood at school, I wasn't Sporty, I wasn't like the most popular kidat school. I wasn't the both hate a kid at school, but Ididn't. I didn't have like a clear path and people weren't sure that Iwas going to be able to be independent or achieve anything. But the truthis I got to do whatever the hell I wanted. I wanted to gotraveling off the high school, I did that. I wanted to be awater ski instructor to Summercount I did that. I wanted to work pubs in theUK. I did that. I wanted to be able to make enoughmoney to pay my way. I did that. I managed to move toIsrael because is when I got here I decided this looks like a good option, and I did that. And I've heard so many people tell me thatone work out, don't do that, like you can't do that, TomI can't do it. I'll, you know, be very duff Cain.I'll get it done. So when people say, like it's not possible,I can't do it, I wasn't able to. I'm saying if I coulddo it, you know, I had no one told me, like youneed to be a sales person, and I landed up in sales and Igot given around. You know, back in those days you get given around, you get told which clients to go see, and I sold the targetsthat she was doing and potential earning. She could do. US All domore, and I don't want to say that. I think I doubled inthe first eight months, six months of my round. So life's easy,not life. It's not easy. This week in Israel highlights the how lifecan be so challenging. But if you want to get something done, youdo it at the end of the day.

So I like to think life's easy. I always say it is. I think if you fake it longenough, it might be true. I understand and I appreciate the perspective.There's a forget the name of the Japanese marathon or but there's just this thisanecdote or this parable that I think it was pouring rain in Boston one yearand every race that he walked up to he would always say these are myfavorite conditions. And if it's a pouring rain and his, you know,shoes are soaked and he's chafing on every part of his body, he saysthese are my favorite conditions. If it's a hundred and ten degrees and,you know he can barely move, these are his favorite conditions. I feellike it's sort of a similar perspective. I love that a lot. Yes, I can directly relate to it, because the truth is, you're goingto have those shit days, you're gonna have really tough days and you're stillgoing to do what you have to do. Like you don't have an option.So at the end of it, when it's done, was it easyor hard? You can say it was the hottest day or you can saynow is easy done, that's have a beer and I'll set there's a lotof us stoicism and in that perspective they call it a more fate, thelove of fate. So whatever life throws at you, you can take itand you do it with a smile on your face. Lee. Were roughlyat the end of our time together and this is the part where we liketo pay it forward a little bit and figure out, are there people inyour life? Are Their ideas in your life? Other books in your life? It can be anything you want, but it's really we're trying to followthe bread crumb trail. We want to know your influences and give us oneor two people or ideas or books or pieces of content that you think weshould know about that have been important to you. Well, that's that's prettypretty broad. But Job I was lucky enough to watch my dad and maybea core detail I left out was the fact that I even got that job. Initially off to my years of traveling, was the fact that it was mydad's shop and my dad grew up not being given anything and he,you know, had to work hard because he had no adoption. You know, he borrowed money from friends and didn't have a dad and looked after himthe way I had. So when I ended up working with him, Igot to see a guy who is incredibly determined to make sure teammate success becausehe had not the option. So you know, that was I think itwas a motivating factor for me, and a guy who never took a sickday. So I got to look up to a guy who was a hardwork of it, also a boss and a leader. As for books,on a completely different tone, was Jack correct Dolma bombs a lifestyle. Idon't think I would have ever had the balls to live amazing, amazing journey, amazing stories about his life on the road. He has a book lifeon the road, but the DORMA bumbs what really caught me and other thingsthat motivate me, I guess, or keep me interested. You know,I listen to music of fortune. I don't stop. Like this is thelongest, you know, having a half an hour and our conversation with musicnot running. You know, that's kind of as soon as I'm done,I hit the play button afterwards. But there's so many things I mean,the truth is, I I love.

It's going to sound horrible, Ilove TV shows, not just because I love sitting in front of the TVand bedging, but I love how much effort and, I think, productionvalue goes into these things, same as I think I enjoy fully prepared andhandmade product and craft anywhere where person is actually taken serious dedication into what's beingpresented. I become such a critic when I watched TV shows, as anexample, movies, the sound editing was rubbish, like that's something I'll bringup, you know. So that type of stuff writing encourages me, especiallywith small production houses and small artists that just release their own art. That'sa big deal for me. Lee, if if folks are listening and theywant to get in touch with you, maybe they want to talk about JackCarowak, maybe they want to learn about cloud share. Is that okay?And what's the best way to get in touch with you? What's your preferredCommunication Metho? Absolutely, Linkedin is actually super trendy. That APP works reallywell, so Linkedin, Lee Burkeman, is always an easy one, butbeing on the customer facing team, I've got a pretty easy email address aswell. It's Lee Ille at Cloudshowcom and whether I'm always interested as well justto hear opinions, quite frankly, or any of your listeners that are actuallytaking advantage of virtual labs, whether that be in house, but a lotof companies will manage it themselves. I'd love to learn more about how you'redoing in why you choose to do it in the house and if you're potentiallyinterested in learning more about how cloud share can, I guess, Support YourBusiness, help a specific project you have. You're running a user event in thecoming months and want to be able to have hands on workshops for Idon't know, thousand delegates, two thousand delegates. Get in touch. There'sa lot we can do, but a number of different offerings and different usecases. Sounds great, Lee, thanks so much for being our guest onthe show this week. We'll talk to you on Friday for Friday fundamentals.Such a pleasure. Thank you very much having me. Everybody Sam's corner.Sam Jacobs, great conversation with Lee Burkman, really interesting guy, and took abay a couple a couple of great sort of ideas insights from that conversation. But the first is that, you know, there's a lot of peoplethat are trying to make a transition from other kinds of sales or other kindsof backgrounds into text sales, and there's a lot of recruiters, a lotof hiring managers that say you really really need Sass sales background in order tobe effective dealing with customers. And I think Lee as a testament to thefact that no, you don't. I think if you're out there listening,you're in HR you're in recruiting, and you think the people need five yearsof Sass sales experience because that is definitionally what makes a good salesperson or theonly thing that enables you to sell Sass. That's not true. You're wrong.A lot of different kinds of people can sell. I was just readingon Linkedin that some of the best sales people that I think it might havebeen Scottie's but somebody hired, all came from being bartenders. Any kind ofbackground can be successful in sales, because sales requires training. If you trainyour team and you empower them with the right tools and enablement, then reallyit's about their aptitude, their ability to have good conversations, their curiosity,their empathy, and that doesn't require knowing the difference between and SDR and accountexecutive in a CS and those are all...

...learnable things. If you can learnthen you can learn SASS sales. So if you're out there and you're discriminating, it gets people that are trying to get into Sass sales from other backgrounds, you're doing the wrong thing and you should stop it. The other thingthat Lee said is people are people, and that again, that's sort ofthe point. There's this continued of thread, which is that it. I guessyou also said people buy from people. In the absence of just features andwebsites, buyers still want to have conversations and they still feel like theyare building a relationship with a specific human being. So remember that as youventure out into the world of sales. I thought was a really good conversation, so thanks for listening. Before we go, of course, we alwayswant to thank our sponsors. First, if you're not a member of thesalesacker community yet, you're missing out. Any sales professional can joined as amember to ask questions, get immediate answers and share experiences. Jump in andstart a discussion with more than seventeenzero professionals at sales haccercom. Of course,we want to thank our sponsors. Our sponsors this week are three. Thefirst is outreach, the leading sales engagement platform pavilion, formally called revenue collective. They just change their name on June twenty two to pavilion. Learn moreto unlock your professional potential at joint PAVILIONCOM and linked in. Linkedin, intoday's virtual selling environment, make sure that you are taking advantage of all ofthe tools. Find new ways to connect with your buyers virtually with linkedin salesnavigator. Go to business dot linkedincom forwards last sales solutions. You can reachme linkedincom forwards. Last the word in Ford M F Jacobs, or emailme Sam at revenue collectivecom. I'm now going to kill the people that aredoing the drilling in my building because it has been going on for forty fiveminutes straight while I'm trying to record a podcast, and they're all I'm notreally going to kill them, I'm just irritated anyway. I hope you havea great day. I'll talk to you next time.

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