The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 11 months ago

165. How to Transition into Tech Sales from a Non-SAAS Background

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

165. Lee Berkman

One, two, one, three, three, everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the Sales Haccer podcast. Today in the show we've got Lee Berkman. He's an enterprise account executive at cloud share. He's had a really interesting life doing all kinds of things, from being a bar man at an English pub in London to selling door to door in Cape Town, South Africa, and now doing on a price sales for cloudshare virtualization software out of Tel Aviv. So it's a great conversation. Now, before we get there, we want to talk to and thank our sponsors. The first is outreach out, which has been a longtime sponsored this podcast, and they just launch a new way to learn outreach. On outreaches the place to learn how outreach does outreach. Learn how the team follows up with every lead in record time after virtual events and turns them into revenue. You can also see our our wach ones account basplays, manages reps and so much more using their very own sales engagement platform. Everything is backed up by data pulled from outreach processes in the customer base. When you're done, you'll be able to do it as well as they do. Go to outreach out. I oh forks lash on outreach to see what they've got going on. PODCAST is also brought to you by Pavilion, the company that used to be known as revenue collective. Pavilion is the key to getting more out of your career. Our private membership connects you with a network of thousands of like minded peers and resources where you can tap into leadership opportunities, training, mentorship and other services made for high growth leaders like you. With a pavilion membership, you'll build deep connections with peers to expand your expertise and unlike growth opportunities, access the full suite of training and certification programs for sales, marketing customer success and unlock over a hundred different job opportunities every week, shared between members and a trusted in private setting. Unlock your professional potential with a pavilion membership today. Learn more at join PAVILIONCOM. And finally, today's virtual selling environment, Band's a new kind of approach, one that prioritizes the buyer above all else. As the world's largest professional network, with seven hundred and twenty two million members Linkedin, is the only place where buyers and sellers connect, share and drive success for each each other every day. Find new ways to connect with your buyers virtually. With linkedin sales navigator, you can learn more or request a free demo at business dot linkedincom forward to life sales solutions. Now, without further ado, let's listen my conversation with Lee Burkman. Everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the sales hacker podcast. Today on the show we've got Lee Berkman, Lee's and Enterprise Account Executive at cloud share, where he's responsible for helping prospects and customers from startups and large enterprise organizations drive higher customer acquisition and retention by Leveraging Cloud shares business acceleration platform to provide engaging hands on software experiences, such as virtual training and remote demos and POC's anywhere in the world at any time. Lee brings a rich set of interpersonal skills and technical knowledge, having held a variety of international customer facing positions in both consumer and high tech organizations. He grew up in South Africa, has lived in London in the US and is currently living in Tel Aviv, Israel. Lee, welcome to the show. Thanks very much for having me. If I'm like that was quite a mouthful. It was the helpful. You provide it to me. I'm happy to deliver it back to you regurgitated. No, the marketing team does a good job of...

...making me sound established, so I'm very comfortable with that. Well, we'll try our best to disabuse everybody that notion over the course the next twenty to twenty five minutes. I don't think you need that much time. So so you're an enterprise account executive at cloud show. We like to start with your baseball card, which really means just giving an opportunity to tell us a little bit more about cloud share. So what is cloud share in your words? I think, in a nutshell, cloud share pro not. I think culture provides a virtual it software environments and experiences for individuals, for and users. What we do is we help enable businesses and companies to deliver an IT solution to an in user, whether that be a user for training, for a sale development person basically doing product rollouts, testing Qa or, in the case on the topic where we focusing on today, I think more definitely is sales. So you're able to basically enable a sales team, will sales engineers, to have a catalog of ready to deploy gem already environments over and above the actual fully functioning software with added assets, materials, guides, and also provide a end user potential buy or a business prospect proof of concept to proof of value, a handson spirits versus it again, a very controlled mechanic. So deleveraging virtualization, easily delivered over a web browser, no software needed for on anyone's part, or preinstalled software, I should say, because the solution that you want the end user to have will be utilized within cloud share, and that's what the culture does. We deliver virtual experiences, we were, deliver hands on experiences. How long have you been at the company? Tell us how old is the company? How many employees are like? How do we get a sense for the size of it? Things like that. So the company has gone through one or two changes in its life. It's about a fourteen year old organization. I've been fortunate to be at the company over four years at this point. My Role, as you mentioned, I'm a enterprise account manager, so I'm responsible for working with new business prospects on adopting evaluating cloudshare. Where past the fifty employee point now? So we're kind of an incredibly mature start up in that sense we have an incredibly well polished and developed product and platform. So we're one of the funny of industry leaders. WAS FOR GODS to providing these type of experiences with the amount of insights and analytics, but still incredibly nimble. That's kind of onto your question. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I guess when you describe sort of virtualization and delivery, tell me if I'm off, but it sounds like it's almost like a horizontal tool that can be used in so many different use cases. Do you find it is that accurate and, if so, how did you derive the sort of sales ICP versus the kind of it solution ICP? Is it hard to describe and focus the solution that can be used in so many different ways...

...towards a specific use case, in this case sales, or is it a very natural use case in everybody immediately understands what you're talking about? That's a great question and depending on the day you ask me, I'll probably onto the different way each time. I come from the background of selling multiplugs and D lighting and basically put entertaining systems. So moving into high tech and learning what virtualization was was pretty far cry from and me, I'm still a geek and I like all this stuff, you know, but it was still the learning curve for me. So we're selling, we're providing solutions to parts of businesses that don't necessarily have the it know how to cross virtualization and be able to easily replicate it solutions easily, and that makes sense. A salesperson doesn't necessarily want to be able to set up a IT infrastructure so that their prospects can, you know, be hands on with it. But when you start being able to show and demonstrate how, with a little bit of it preparation, saving an environment, that can then be, once you finish this business focused conversation with potential buyer prospect give them that hands on experience. In a matter of minutes and a few clicks, the conversation becomes quite simple. The conversation becomes quite easy. So it really depends on who we're talking to and we do support so many different departments and different leaders and different roles in organizations we support and we work with and we have buyers part of the it department in the vision within an organization. That conversation, you can imagine, is far more technical focused because they want to get into the egrety about but how many layers are you able to support with customized networking too? Very different conversation to a salesperson. Okay, but how am I able to showcase my solution and have insights to how engaged the prospect was? To very different focuses but in results of really similar in the platform provides all of it in one in one clean offering against that kind of does that help? Yeah, kind of perfect, of course he jobs. Yeah, yeah, I mean they're it absolutely helps. That makes sense to me in my head. So I always want to make sure that I'm translating it ready well, and you can hear, like I deal with a lot of business prospects, that it's always did that make sense? Do you have any questions? So you might get that a fair amount. Well, I like the you know there's a bit of controversy around the phrase does that make sense, but I personally like it a lot, so I'm always happy for you to ask it to me and then I can tell you whether it did or not. I've had so many schools of that particular question. You don't ask it because you're insinuating that the person who speaking you doesn't understand it, and I'm, quite frankly, not trying to be too polite. I want to know if you don't understand it, and you know I Phil I'm not trying to be sweet, I'm trying to be as effective as possible. You know. So that makes a lot of sense. Speaking of sort of sales techniques and sales background, you know, you mentioned you've been a cloud share for years. I read in your your bio that you grew up in South Africa. You've lived in London, in the...

US, so essentially all over the world and then and then came to tell Aviv. So walk us through a little bit of your story. How did you get to cloudshare? How did you get to Tell Aviv? How did you originally get into sales? You mentioned that you were selling home entertainment systems. That sounds like an interesting background to make this migration. Where to grow up? Give us a little bit of the life story of Lee Berkman. The life story is good fortune and lucky breaks. Then, I guess, taking advantage of a nonstop grew up in Cape Town, South Africa, one of the most gorgeous cities you'll ever be able to visit in your lifetime. Straight out of high school when traveling, I did not study at the Dogo University. I went straight into working as a water ski instructor, bombing in London and getting my opportunity to be abroad. I came back to South Africa with not in exact, I think, goal of direction and landed up in sales. It wasn't a straight sales position. I actually landed up in a call center first and the sale director knocked on the door. But after a year of me basically landing up like managing this school center, and he said, Lee, you're gonna have to buy a suit, you're going to have to stop wearing colorful socks and you're going to come on the road setting with me. I still way colorful socks to this day, but the way, I think caliver socks are a good conversation starter. I don't think you have anything to be ashamed out. Oh No, no, very proud of it. Very proud I did where I did have to go buy white and black socks. Had lost it for a few weeks. And Yeah, and that's kind of how my sales started. I was six years for a wholesaler. So of quite different to what I do now, but still be tob but I never worked in an office, I didn't work behind a desk, I was in my car all the time. That was my office. And you were selling stereo equipment, so not stericaling, but like TV brackets. Ah Day, my cables, speaker, cables, satellite to come, how do you call it? Receivers, you would say in the America we call them just seatellite, the codas. So I think we had line items close to twentyzero items, so from AA batteries to torches to, like I say, larger type of equiping and even solar panels. And you were selling to retailers, you were selling to businesses that are setting to make television stations or offices or just anybody. I was selling to so many different businesses. We were selling to Mama popper shops, we are selling to convenience stores, we were selling to large national, nationwide franchises and then actual hand you know, honeyman installers. So the amount of people I spoke to, the amount of office spaces or McDonald's that I sat in to sell was also so fresh and chain, you know, just really interesting. My favorite stores to this day to walk into as a hardware shop. I love a hardware store, so you know, that's where it likes. Is All. This is all across South Africa. This is all across predominant. Came down the Western Cape. No, no, I was. I was pretty much. You know, the longest journeys I did were like eight hour drives to go see clients. Look Pretty Lass. I'm exaggerating, and that was for five, six years and it was a wonderful experience. I loved it. I actually still have to the stay very close friends that were, you know, me knocking on their door saying hey, I'd like to sell your flashlight and then saying, listen,...

I'm busy, I don't have time for you to this day, communicating literally a few hours ago, you know. So you build these incredible interpersonal relationships with human beings and you learn how to be a salesperson, you learn how not to be a salesperson. You makes incredible mistakes, come over confident, you become incredible. I'm cheeky naturally, so once I point you start getting cocky with regards to the fact that you work for, because it was a national wide company that I work was quite a great brand name in caped on so Africa, Ellis, and you become quite confident that you know people just buy from you. So a lot of wonderful learning experiences with sales and after a while I was looking for a change and a fresh start. So what better way than to say I'm taking a sabbatical, you know, leaving your car at home, renting out your house and jumping on a plane. Is Roll was my first stop. It was meant to be for five months, six months on a little holiday, and I'm on the same holiday seven years later. And how is it? How do you like living in Israel? You know, this week is a unique time to ask me. I would have a very different answer a week ago, but I'm very passionate about the country. I love it. It's very it's incredibly unique. It's a real melting pot, to put it mildly, and a fortunate of opportunity. They call it the startup nation. That's as true as can be and I've had more work business opportunities here than I think I could have ever have had back where I come from and potentially in the UK all the states. So I love being in Israel. I love the climate, I love the food, the humans here already something special and unique. So very happy here. And with regards to finding work, I had my first jobs here because what happens is you can become a experience salesperson in South Africa selling multiplugs and then come to Israel and there's a huge Anglo focus type of work group in the high tech because you work internationally. So English speakers fall into high tech pretty naturally. I work in sales, so it kind of worked about find a sales position in high tech, except for the fact that's like while you there work in high tech, so you don't really know how to sell. So I kind of started, I don't say square one, but I was a junior and you start as a sales development representative, you know, trying to get meetings for other account executives. So the first job I got had nothing to do with high tech. It was a company that did preparations for organization, that went to conferences and had to build like these big lavish stands and marketing materials and stuff, and I was an SDR for this. Three months in the job and I was like it was it was the shortest career choice I ever had. My Way to the boss, I said listen, this is not working for me, an working for you. Let's sake hands and say goodbye. then. My next job I got was actually at a pretty well known technology company called Walk Me, and that was again just good fortune. Being South African, I found a very reputable high tech recruiter who happens me so African and favors so Africans in general, looking for work, and...

...she was like, Oh, I've got this great company I've never heard of. Obviously prior they're looking for a sales development man. At I sell SDR. Are usually them. The role my meeting ontos. Yes, no problem, speak to the recruiter. So Sdr. We basically you. I don't have to explain SDR to you, and I'm assuming not your audience. I had no idea what the role entailed, but when she mentioned to me it was US hours, was like Oh, maybe of something UK hours, and we're like, well, we have a CSM position, but it is what is that? I didn't know what to CSM was. I didn't know. I didn't know these sort of like high tech roles, responsibilities and sort of sales flows, sales processes. You know, for me it was take a sample, show it to a client, compete on price, compete on features and functionality and land, you know, just general relationship and how quick you can deliver it to my shop. So I said sure, that sounds like a good job to me and I became a customer success manager actually, which was very fortunate because I got the wonderful foundation of understand ending the sort of pre and post sales, of SASS sales cycles and, you know, acquiring a client as one thing in the pre cells pots and then how important it is to nurture and enable them to keep them as a client. So that was my first position and then, exactly like you said, I became an str first and walk me, and then had the fortune of meeting cloud share. You know, I'm sure you got feedback to the point of your conversations with recruiters and companies that you know what you'd done in South Africa as a wholesaler, driving around, you know, the Western Cape, pitching HDMI cables and flat screen TV brackets had nothing at all to do with tech sales. But I'm sure that probably wasn't quite the case. What was your experience in terms of the things that were surprising to you in terms of the sales motion, the sales tactics and techniques, and what were the things that were really the same as what you'd experienced in South Africa and really weren't as different as people might think they are. I guess what's not different is you're selling to a person. You're dealing with a person at the end of the day. I remember when I first became the Sales Rep, my question to my managers why are they sales reps? And I didn't mean it in a funny pastitious way. I meant there's so many options. There's Internet available and that was even before we were on the smartphone trended such rate we are now. Like it was blackberry back then, but a lot of people weren't even on matchet. So there's pre iphone days. And you know what stops by fire? Some looking for a product, going through the phone book, Looking Online, phoning for a product, getting a price in ordering. It's but why do you need sales people? And I think the old truth is people buy from people and I still believe that to this day. And SAS is an incredibly competitive space because of how smart buyers are, how much information is out there, how much choice is out there, but at the end of the day, Somebody's going to be committing to a solution, but they're also committing to their provider. You're committing to somebody that's going to support them throughout their adoption,...

...their process. With SASS sales, and I guess what I've learned and I'm going to all speak about, and I guess that's still the same, is with says you're not buying a product, you're not going a physical hand you know something that you can get tangible product. You're buying a value propositions and that's going to improve something in your business flow process, whether that be delivering a hands on experience to your potential buyer. You have a SASS solution and you have an IT product that you want your potential buyer to be hands on with. In the next twenty minutes, can you find a vendor that can offer that? You know, you get in touch the cloud, you you find that you can, but at the end of the day you still are going to be dealing with a team and a person that you have to trust. So that's the same whether I'm selling you a multiplug or whether I'm selling you a annual subscription to help support. You and your two hundred sales engineer delivered demos of your software solution. That that's the same and I'm shocked at like how people think it might be different, because it's not. So that was something that surprised me and people still maybe don't always see it, but some of the big changes, some of the things that are different, is that not seeing humans facetoface, and you know alls, I'm sure covid has changed so many opinions and ways that people can sell and do so and just engage. Before covid I didn't have my Webcam on for every call. Now I do so. Before Webcam was like a complete standard for me to communicate with people new and existing and, you know, colleagues and prospects and clients. It was virtil call some of us. What we doing now, sitting behind my computer, being able to read notes while I'm doing it, versus going facetoface, sitting down, having a cup of coffee, getting to a stage. Hopefully we grab a beer with your clients and you know, it's ten minutes business and an hour chatting about their kids and their dogs and all that. So yeah, there's so many of these running parallels that are exactly the same to me. People bar from people, even if it is through a little computer screen now or whether you're sitting facetoface. To your point, one thing I think is interesting in this ass model that I think is still maybe a little controversial or just you know, it's debatable. It is debated, which is to your point about people by from people. There's this experience that you have sometimes in a lot of SASS buying buying motions, where the salesperson sells you something. You've spent a long time building that relationship. Exactly to your point, you think that you're buying from xyc salesperson and then, to your point, into your first experience, you then get transferred over to a customer success manager and the customer success manager is a different person and a different relationship and it's just different. Sometimes it's better, sometimes it's worse, but it is a break in the relationship between the first person that you experience, who represents the company, the brand in the value proposition, and then the next person who ostensibly, theoretically represents the same things but may approach it from a different perspective. Did that make a lot of sense to you?...

Did you as somebody that has built all of these relationships, you know, through doortodoor sales and hand to hand sales. Did that not make sense to you? I guess I'm curious. Sometimes people are surprised or confused at the existence of a customer success team and they say, why doesn't the sales team do that too? So very much so. My first role in high tech, as I mentioned, was Acsm, which is something that I loved because you know, it's a client now and you're basically getting them to enjoy what you're offering them. However, the salesperson still kept tabs, like I noticed that from all me days and which were really nice lot. In your hundred percent rights and it's common practice that that is the case. And often the person that goes through the sales journey, the evaluation, the actual then the curement budget approvals and purchasing culture, for example, is not the person that's going to be using cloudshare moving forward. They get put on to a project team. So you know the relationship almost changes dynamic and who you're dealing with from the client side. So there is that, you know, to fold organizations that obviously have the sales cycle where it sales per you know, str salesperson, pre sales, like see, and then CSM. One of the things that I love about cloud share is the fact that and how we sort of like differentiate ourselves a lot of the time is the fact that we we position ourselves so much so of and they again, I think it's one of the things that really spoke to me about the company and why I love dealing with our CEO set, our CEO and all the VP's, actually all the sea level leaders of my company, is we are so, I think, invested in our clients. We take so much more time to understand the business need align with their goals are. And I do that as well from the get go, you know, not post sale, trying to do the flashy presentation, get a signature and say adios. It's very much getting that relationship start and actually one of the first things will have in like that initial call and Demo, whether I'm doing it, whether my sales engineers facilitating it with me, is like introducing them with the dynamic of our culture works and say listen, I will be your account manager from this initial call pretty much the most of your journey of cloud share, depending on the needs might Migrat and change and they will be that sort of handle permanently. But in general, most of the clients that have started working with me and some of them have been out for years actually on the kind of like with cloud show, using clad. Sure I'm still engaged with them on a, you know, quarterly basis at least. And again that's not for every account and you focus on exactly where the value is at the end of the day for your immediate pipeline, for the you know Business Bank back for cultured benefit. So you're a hundred percent. Writing. Yes, it is a bit Farign to me to just say great, nice to meet you, thanks to the deal. Good luck with the rest of the team. I A little bit more emotional, a little bit more attached maybe than I should be sometimes, but I think it's beneficial to everyone and clearly we see the benefits to the culture. Like our attention rate of our clients is really high and the tender as well.

So normally very long term. We have clients that have been with us for eight years, nine years, which is pretty great going our churning slow SASS business. Yeah, yeah, so and again again, like it's a competitive space, like I mentioned, like virtual environments, even if it doesn't sound like a common term compared to crm. That must be a tough place to play as well. I'm not jealous of those guys, but you know there's firm competition. So the fact that clients, you know, are invested in cloud, sure because the platform does so well, but because the support on the relationship is so that really valued. Again, that was an incredibly long with it on. So that I hope kind of still touch strengths to and then. And you know that's that's where I'm going's my comfort zone, I guess. Is that a relationship building? Yeah, well, don't worry about being long winded. First of all, there's drilling in the background here and in my building, I think, in New York. So listen to you is better than listening to the drill thing. But also you're the guest, so you're allowed to be long winded. I'm the person that needs to be concise. Where we were almost at the end of our time together. But one of the things that you sort of said in the past that I think is interesting. I would just love to hear a little bit more of your thoughts about it. We ask the question in sort of when we're prepping for the interview, we say what's was something you believe that others don't, and your response was life is easy. When you say that, tell me what you mean. How do you approach it? What is how does that relate to your philosophy? I'm just personally curious. So life's easy is a silly thing to say because it's not the truth and things that matter will often be the most challenging. A lot of the time relationships are hard to keep strong with it. If you with family, would that be with your partner, your kids? But the truth is, like I grew up, I was a dyslexic kid. I wasn't good at school, I wasn't Sporty, I wasn't like the most popular kid at school. I wasn't the both hate a kid at school, but I didn't. I didn't have like a clear path and people weren't sure that I was going to be able to be independent or achieve anything. But the truth is I got to do whatever the hell I wanted. I wanted to go traveling off the high school, I did that. I wanted to be a water ski instructor to Summercount I did that. I wanted to work pubs in the UK. I did that. I wanted to be able to make enough money to pay my way. I did that. I managed to move to Israel because is when I got here I decided this looks like a good option, and I did that. And I've heard so many people tell me that one work out, don't do that, like you can't do that, Tom I can't do it. I'll, you know, be very duff Cain. I'll get it done. So when people say, like it's not possible, I can't do it, I wasn't able to. I'm saying if I could do it, you know, I had no one told me, like you need to be a sales person, and I landed up in sales and I got given around. You know, back in those days you get given around, you get told which clients to go see, and I sold the targets that she was doing and potential earning. She could do. US All do more, and I don't want to say that. I think I doubled in the first eight months, six months of my round. So life's easy, not life. It's not easy. This week in Israel highlights the how life can be so challenging. But if you want to get something done, you do it at the end of the day.

So I like to think life's easy. I always say it is. I think if you fake it long enough, it might be true. I understand and I appreciate the perspective. There's a forget the name of the Japanese marathon or but there's just this this anecdote or this parable that I think it was pouring rain in Boston one year and every race that he walked up to he would always say these are my favorite conditions. And if it's a pouring rain and his, you know, shoes are soaked and he's chafing on every part of his body, he says these are my favorite conditions. If it's a hundred and ten degrees and, you know he can barely move, these are his favorite conditions. I feel like it's sort of a similar perspective. I love that a lot. Yes, I can directly relate to it, because the truth is, you're going to have those shit days, you're gonna have really tough days and you're still going to do what you have to do. Like you don't have an option. So at the end of it, when it's done, was it easy or hard? You can say it was the hottest day or you can say now is easy done, that's have a beer and I'll set there's a lot of us stoicism and in that perspective they call it a more fate, the love of fate. So whatever life throws at you, you can take it and you do it with a smile on your face. Lee. Were roughly at the end of our time together and this is the part where we like to pay it forward a little bit and figure out, are there people in your life? Are Their ideas in your life? Other books in your life? It can be anything you want, but it's really we're trying to follow the bread crumb trail. We want to know your influences and give us one or two people or ideas or books or pieces of content that you think we should know about that have been important to you. Well, that's that's pretty pretty broad. But Job I was lucky enough to watch my dad and maybe a core detail I left out was the fact that I even got that job. Initially off to my years of traveling, was the fact that it was my dad's shop and my dad grew up not being given anything and he, you know, had to work hard because he had no adoption. You know, he borrowed money from friends and didn't have a dad and looked after him the way I had. So when I ended up working with him, I got to see a guy who is incredibly determined to make sure teammate success because he had not the option. So you know, that was I think it was a motivating factor for me, and a guy who never took a sick day. So I got to look up to a guy who was a hard work of it, also a boss and a leader. As for books, on a completely different tone, was Jack correct Dolma bombs a lifestyle. I don't think I would have ever had the balls to live amazing, amazing journey, amazing stories about his life on the road. He has a book life on the road, but the DORMA bumbs what really caught me and other things that motivate me, I guess, or keep me interested. You know, I listen to music of fortune. I don't stop. Like this is the longest, you know, having a half an hour and our conversation with music not running. You know, that's kind of as soon as I'm done, I hit the play button afterwards. But there's so many things I mean, the truth is, I I love.

It's going to sound horrible, I love TV shows, not just because I love sitting in front of the TV and bedging, but I love how much effort and, I think, production value goes into these things, same as I think I enjoy fully prepared and handmade product and craft anywhere where person is actually taken serious dedication into what's being presented. I become such a critic when I watched TV shows, as an example, movies, the sound editing was rubbish, like that's something I'll bring up, you know. So that type of stuff writing encourages me, especially with small production houses and small artists that just release their own art. That's a big deal for me. Lee, if if folks are listening and they want to get in touch with you, maybe they want to talk about Jack Carowak, maybe they want to learn about cloud share. Is that okay? And what's the best way to get in touch with you? What's your preferred Communication Metho? Absolutely, Linkedin is actually super trendy. That APP works really well, so Linkedin, Lee Burkeman, is always an easy one, but being on the customer facing team, I've got a pretty easy email address as well. It's Lee Ille at Cloudshowcom and whether I'm always interested as well just to hear opinions, quite frankly, or any of your listeners that are actually taking advantage of virtual labs, whether that be in house, but a lot of companies will manage it themselves. I'd love to learn more about how you're doing in why you choose to do it in the house and if you're potentially interested in learning more about how cloud share can, I guess, Support Your Business, help a specific project you have. You're running a user event in the coming months and want to be able to have hands on workshops for I don't know, thousand delegates, two thousand delegates. Get in touch. There's a lot we can do, but a number of different offerings and different use cases. Sounds great, Lee, thanks so much for being our guest on the show this week. We'll talk to you on Friday for Friday fundamentals. Such a pleasure. Thank you very much having me. Everybody Sam's corner. Sam Jacobs, great conversation with Lee Burkman, really interesting guy, and took a bay a couple a couple of great sort of ideas insights from that conversation. But the first is that, you know, there's a lot of people that are trying to make a transition from other kinds of sales or other kinds of backgrounds into text sales, and there's a lot of recruiters, a lot of hiring managers that say you really really need Sass sales background in order to be effective dealing with customers. And I think Lee as a testament to the fact that no, you don't. I think if you're out there listening, you're in HR you're in recruiting, and you think the people need five years of Sass sales experience because that is definitionally what makes a good salesperson or the only thing that enables you to sell Sass. That's not true. You're wrong. A lot of different kinds of people can sell. I was just reading on Linkedin that some of the best sales people that I think it might have been Scottie's but somebody hired, all came from being bartenders. Any kind of background can be successful in sales, because sales requires training. If you train your team and you empower them with the right tools and enablement, then really it's about their aptitude, their ability to have good conversations, their curiosity, their empathy, and that doesn't require knowing the difference between and SDR and account executive in a CS and those are all...

...learnable things. If you can learn then you can learn SASS sales. So if you're out there and you're discriminating, it gets people that are trying to get into Sass sales from other backgrounds, you're doing the wrong thing and you should stop it. The other thing that Lee said is people are people, and that again, that's sort of the point. There's this continued of thread, which is that it. I guess you also said people buy from people. In the absence of just features and websites, buyers still want to have conversations and they still feel like they are building a relationship with a specific human being. So remember that as you venture out into the world of sales. I thought was a really good conversation, so thanks for listening. Before we go, of course, we always want to thank our sponsors. First, if you're not a member of the salesacker community yet, you're missing out. Any sales professional can joined as a member to ask questions, get immediate answers and share experiences. Jump in and start a discussion with more than seventeenzero professionals at sales haccercom. Of course, we want to thank our sponsors. Our sponsors this week are three. The first is outreach, the leading sales engagement platform pavilion, formally called revenue collective. They just change their name on June twenty two to pavilion. Learn more to unlock your professional potential at joint PAVILIONCOM and linked in. Linkedin, in today's virtual selling environment, make sure that you are taking advantage of all of the tools. Find new ways to connect with your buyers virtually with linkedin sales navigator. Go to business dot linkedincom forwards last sales solutions. You can reach me linkedincom forwards. Last the word in Ford M F Jacobs, or email me Sam at revenue collectivecom. I'm now going to kill the people that are doing the drilling in my building because it has been going on for forty five minutes straight while I'm trying to record a podcast, and they're all I'm not really going to kill them, I'm just irritated anyway. I hope you have a great day. I'll talk to you next time.

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