The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

178. Why SDRs Should Report to Marketing w/ Amy Frampton

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode of the Sales Hacker Podcast, we have Amy Frampton , Head of Marketing at BambooHR and 15- year marketing veteran. Join us for a hilarious conversation about what’s changed in marketing lately, brushing shoulders with Marshawn Lynch, poaching SDRs and AEs from sales, and tips for employer branding.

What You’ll Learn 

- Why trust is integral to chiefs of staff

- Who sales development should report to (spoiler: it’s marketing)

- The importance of employer brand

- Being intentional about employee satisfaction

Show Agenda and Timestamps

About Amy Frampton & Bamboo HR [3:13]

Quick aside: What a chief of staff does [9:46]

Changes in marketing in the last 15 years [13:08]

Who should sales development report to? [15:20]

Employer branding & employee satisfaction [20:51]

Paying it forward: Shout-outs [26:48]

Sam’s Corner [29:00]

One, two, one, three, three, everybody, as Sam Jacobs, welcome to the salesacer podcasted. In the show we've got Amy Frampton, AMY's ahead of marketing at bamboo HR. We have a great conversation. She's a captivating person. She's super interesting, got a great sense to humor and we talked about both the history and marketing. We talked about who sales development should report to, we talked about marshawn Lynch, all of it. So it's a great conversation and I can't wait to get into it. Before we get there, we've got three sponsors. The first is outreach. Outreach, you know, they've been a sponsor for a long time, since the inception, and they've got a new website for to learn how outreach performs the act of outreach. Learn how the team follows up with every lead in record time after virtual events. Learn how they turn leads into revenue. You can also see how out rich runs account based plays, manages reps and so much more using their very own sales engagement platform, everything backed up by data pulled from outreach processes and customer base. When you're done, you'll be able to do it as well as they do. Had to our reach out IO, fords on outreach, to see what they've got going on. The show is also brought to you by pavilion. Pavilion is the key to getting more out of your career. Our private membership connects you with a network of thousands of like minded peers and resources where you can tap into leadership opportunities, training, mentoring and other services made for high growth leaders like you. This fall, take advantage of a huge host of new pavilion courses, including frontline manager school, Sales School, Sales Acceleration boot camp for STRs, chief Customer Officers School, Chief Marketing Officer School and even chief Revenue Officers School. Take advantage of a pavilion membership leaders at every stage. You can get started today at joined pavilioncom. Finally, we're brought to you by air call. Air Call is a cloud based voice platform that integrates seamlessly with popular productivity and helped us. Tools from call monitoring and whispering, integrations with your crm and realtime analytics are call can help turbo charge your sales reps. portativity set a new standard for sales productivity and performance by switching to a phone system that's best friends with your crm.

You can get twenty percent off your first three months at air call. At Air Call Sales Hackercom and I can tell you that at pavilion we use Air Call, we love air call and we even hired our VP of marketing from air call. Air Call is fantastic. And now, without further do litzls in my conversation with Amy Frampton. Hey everybody, as Sam Jacobs, welcome to the sales hacker podcast. Today in the show we've got Amy Frampton. Let me tell you a little bit about her. She's the head of marketing add an HR software company called bamboo HR. Prior to joining bamboo, amy spent more than fifteen years in technology and marketing leadership roles in the Greater Seattle area. Previously, she was VP of product marketing at smartsheet, a leading work management software company. Before that, she served in marketing and leadership positions at Vulcan, the Holding Company founded by Microsoft Co founder Paul Allen Hewlett Packard Enterprise and Microsoft. Amy, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having me. We're excited to have you. So we like to start with your baseball card, which basically gives you an opportunity to to tell us a little bit more about both your role and the company bamboo, because there's people out there that may not have heard of bamboo. So first let's start there. What is bamboo h is the full name bamboo HR? Is that the right way to say and we wach are. Yeah, that's and so what do y'all do it? Tell us how you would define it, characterize it, give us the pitch. Absolutely so. We're a SASS offering and we've been around for almost fourteen years building what we think is the best hr software in the world for small and medium business, everything from sourcing, finding the right candidates to on boarding and then managing the employee experience once folks come on board, and so we're super passionate about employee experience, both at bamboo hr internally, but also in helping our customers reach the same goals. So how big is bamboo? You know for an you don't. Don't reveal anything confidential, but I don't know. Whatever your feel comfortable sharing with us so that we can cry. In terms of its growth, sure, yeah, we're at just almost a thousand folks. We're cloud one hundred. Company growing super fast and doing it really year over year by building a great product.

We made a commitment at the beginning of this year in the local news here in Utah that we'd hire five hundred people by the end of the year. We're well on our way to that. We're about halfway through, so we expect to be about one hundred, twelve hundred and fifty before the clock turns to two thousand and twenty two. And are those five hundred? Is it mostly in sales? Is it engineering? Is it all of the above? It's all the above. We're hiring sales like crazy. I have about a hundred and forty folks and that includes the Sales Development Reps. they live in marketing here at bamboo and obviously we're hiring a lot of SDRs and then our more traditional marketing and then a ton of engineers because you know, we're working on product every single day and and that investment needs to be big. So I think our HR team would would say all of the above when they look at thet makes a lot of sense. Yes, let's get into a little bit about your background. I read a little bit about your bio, but tell us how did you get to whhere you are today. How did you originally get into marketing? Was this, you know, your goal all along or, like many people, did you sort of stumble into it based on what was available and the opportunities of the time? Give us a little bit about you, about your history. Sure, absolutely, and it definitely was a stumble. I mean a stumble that I'm so grateful for. But you know, I went to school in political science and history, so of course I'm in marketing right and I then went to work for that. I was passionate about politics and about the importance of involvement in politics in college and high school really, and I went to work for the both of US House in the US Senate after college. So I worked at a bipartisan institute and then I worked as a congressional aid for about five and a half years and as I grew through that and just loved it, it was Super Fun. I don't know how fun it would be now, but I'm on the outside now, so maybe I just don't you know, maybe I just don't see as much as I used to. But as I decided to go, you know, inside a corporation. I was in Seattle in you know, one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight. So obviously Microsoft growing big. You know,...

...there was really no Amazon yet, at least no cloud offering for Amazon, but tech was growing so big and I wanted to go to a corporation and and I thought a little bit about going in as a lobbyists or a, you know, a legislative affairs, I should say, kind of person. But I ended up getting recruited by a Communications Agency and I'll never forget I and this is a little bit embarrassing, but my dad was in marketing and I went to his house and I got all of his college books on how to be a marketer and having to do communications, and I remember reading them before I started this job, which I clearly totally looked out that they gave me because I was not a marketer or communications person and their big client was Nintendo, so I didn't want to mess it up, and reading these books and calling my dad and saying, wait, politics is marketing, like I did not understand. We were in the same field and the ability to connect with people, to hopefully motivate them and to spur and action is exactly the same premise, you know, and you could say, well, Gosh, politics is, you know, better or worse than marketing, and we certainly all could have this debate. Both sides have a sales team working for them at all times. But I loved it and so I went agency Gosh for six years. Loved it. Great Clients, Microsoft, Nintendo, Safeco, which is now liberty mutual, and I love of loved it. And then I got recruited into Microsoft by one of my clients and from that point on I was tech marketing and couldn't have loved it more. So I was at Microsoft for a number of years and then I got offered I would say a hard left or a hard right. I'm not trying to be political, because it's not, but career change. I got offered a chiefest staff job, and I get asked about this a lot because, you know, people say, well, you know, do you need to grow your career in a straight line and how do you become successful? And at least for me, as Zigzag line was the way to go, because I just always wanted to...

...have impact and work with fun people and learn. And so I was then chief of staff at Hewlett Packard enterprise open stack business, and then a vulcan for the CEO for four and a half years and so I really got to dive into operations and, you know, work with the sales teams even more, work with product teams even more, and I loved that. And then I realized I was missing marketing, so I went back to into marketing Adam smart sheet and then on to bamboo HR. That's a long story, but I think that I think I'm old and also I think it's important for people to know that you can take chances and do interesting things and it doesn't all have to be in a linear line. You know, it can be, totally can be, but it doesn't have to be, and it's in the modern age. It very, very rarely is, because there is no straight line because we're all changing jobs so often. So we're going to us to be able to ZIG ZAG. To your point, this is a an aside. I want to dive into the questions of how marketing is changed and what your perspectives on it are, particular because you're running such a large Dr Team. But what is the definition of the Chief of staff job? Oftentimes people say that the chiefest staff can become the COO, but the way it's sometimes presented is quasi administrative. In such a way that it feels difficult for me to envision that that person would have the the the credibility within the organization to become the CEO. What's your perspective on the job description of the chief of staff? That's a great question and you know, I get people calling me still saying hey, I've been offered a chief of staff. Does this mean I'm going to be an EA or does this mean I'm going to be a business manager? What does this mean and what it means different things in every job and it's all about a connection with your CEO or the exact that you're doing it with. So I was chief of staff for a guy named Bill Health, who is an open source leader for years and and a tech leader in the Seattle area. I had worked for him at other places as a...

...member of his marketing team and he and I had a close relationship and is so we had a heavy trust. So I was able to go in and he would say, Hey, go get this done and or go do this research and talk to my leadership team and either make this happen or figure out how it could happen or figure out the best way to go. And so I had, you know, I had a front row seats to both the I would say the the birth and, frankly death of open stack at Hewlett Packard, and they're still doing some work in open stack, but of the clouds, separate cloud division certainly, and working across. I was working with HR on his behalf of finance. I got this opportunity to have kind of this like met at Mba, you know, and then to do the same thing at Vulcan for the same person. I actually was supposed to go to Awsh and he called me and he say I'm going to work for Paul Allen. And I looked at it and I thought this is like working for freaking Willy Wonka, like we've got this seahawks and we've got building, you know, all of south, like union in Seattle, and we're saving the elephants in the coral reefs. Like there's no way I'm taking a standard job if I get to do this. You know, beast moode walks down the hall, marshawn walks down the hall, you know, on a daily basis. You're like holy Moli. So I went and did that instead. I say a D ws. I'm sorry, I'm sure it would have been a great job. I'm a big Fan of Amazon web services, but man, this was a this was a fun thing, and so I really because of that trust, I was able to do things, frankly, way over my skis in terms of experience level, but I just I learned on the daily both from him and from the job, and I loved it. Well, are you and are you still friends with Marshall Lunch? You know, I eat skittles like marshawn letting. Yeah, I don't know that he'd call us like bff s or anything, but I have, you know, walk down the hall after him. I'm sure. I'm sure he remembers it fondly. That's...

...let me. Let me ask you a question. So, first of all, thank you so much for that explanation, because it really is. It's it's a question mark and I think to your point right, it depends a little bit on the trust. If you've got that trust, then I would imagine the department heads that you're sort of issuing orders to or issuing direction to are more likely to listen. I'm strong a request. Exactly. How do you think marketings changed? You know, since you got into it, you've been doing it for a little while. You're now running a modern marketing organization. What do you think the key evolutions have been, the key advancements have been? How they've been impacted technology? What's your perspective on the last fifteen years or so? Yeah, for sure, you know, for me and I think, I don't think this is revolutionary. I think most heads of marketing or marketing, just anyone in marketing, would say that the use of data is so much more important than it used to be. It used to be, at least in my experience, a lot of let's do this fun thing, let's get some attention, let's get some at least in terms of, you know, Tech Marketing. Let's go out there. I mean you kind of think of the earlycom days with the puppet ads right like there's a lot of just let's just get some eyeballs and it will all work out. And now, certainly, you know at smartsheet and hear it bamboo hr your parsing audiences and trying to understand your customer and their engagement with your message in entirely new ways. I mean it's it's, you know, with all of the analytic systems that we have, and I don't want to say one or the other, but it's so important and you're so much more connected to instantly to what's working and what's not, versus just let's go be fun and in creative and tell a great story. I think it's way people want things to land a lot closer to where they are these days as a customer or as an audience type, and so that become has become a lot more important. And then for me, I think it's become more important, more important through my career for me to understand the product that I'm selling, that it's not...

...just enough to be creative or, you know, have a great comms line, but like the reality of the product and talking about that in a realistic way. I can remember once, and this was years ago, but I think this is when my brain started to change this way. I used to be reviewing things from my team and I would put in the comments, put this in human language and send it back to me like no more buzz words, and I think I think it has gotten more grounded, at least in my experience. There's been a lot of you know, I come from the sales background and there's a lot of guests debate you whatever we want to call it. There's conversation around the role of sales development and strs and there's a group of people that are still highly, highly activity, kind of metric focused, you know, making sure the dials are there and making sure you open enough sequences or cadences or whatever you want to call it, that you're flooding the airway, so to speak, with effort generated largely by humans. And then there's another point of view, maybe that there's so much inundation that buyers are suffering from because of the growth of sales development that it's really much more about a smaller, more curated list of you can call it a companies marketing, but just more personalized, more focused outreach that is really highly, highly customized. Where do you fall out on that spectrum, because both are probably useful at different times. Yeah, they both are. And so, you know, as we look at how how we're leading our marketing in the breadth, which is kind of that you know, numbers game that you're talking about, we certainly have all the cadences and all of those sorts of things. But the reason that we put SDRs in the marketing team and we just did this, gosh, maybe eight or nine months ago, so they've they've been with me about that long. Is Because, even if you're just going through the standard cadences, having a connection to the content that was taken in by your audience, by the person they're calling or emailing, and understanding how they engaged with what marketing is doing to get to the SDR and being able to...

...have a conversation with them that's really about what they did and not just what like person x could do, because, you know, because it's a cadence that is super important to us. And so if they get a call from one of our SDRS, our hope is that that SDR really understands why they interacted, how they interacted and why it might be important so that we then can help them further. And so there certainly is that breadth motion. I think that connectivity is really important. And then I also think you have to run that kind of targeted ABM sort of motion to help people be met where they are, to speak in kind of a marketing lingo, we target SMB's and so you know, when I was at smart sheet, certainly we were doing abm. That was much more to the one. You know, as we work with with SMB's. Here we tend to say in a vertical or in a type how can we serve this certain audience? So it's a little bit different enterprise to smb but I just think they're both super important. That's why we made the connection between Sdrs and marketing, is because when they get a first call from us, we want that person calling them to have an understanding of of why they're interacting with us in the first place. was there concern, I mean, this is the constant debate where SDR should report to. There's some people that even say, Hey, let's create a third department. That's called demand generation and it can be the bridge between marketing and sales. was there consternation from the sales team? Hey, the SDRs want to become a e's one day and you know there's not got a career path for them through marketing. That's typically the common objection about training and development. Totally, and so we have it totally. Is the the common objection, I should say. But we didn't have that issue here. We work really closely. So we have the sales leadership, Jet Smith is my peer, and then we have an expansion sales, which is it additional products once folks are customers. We all work really closely because all of us have folks that come...

...in at either an str level, maybe an a one level, are, you know, our first level of account exact, or maybe coming through support and expansion and customer experience, all of which that want pathways to the company. And so, in fact, just today I was, you know, to SDRs are interested in working over and in customer experience and we were all on a chat about it. Yet let's do that. And so we're pretty connected in terms of that experience and I was asked, Hey, let's make sure that we don't lose that SDR to a experience. But because it's not singular with us, it's not just sdrt A, but it's also SDR to expansion. I have a lot of SDRs that want to come to traditional marketing. They're already in marketing, but you know, traditional marketing roles. Maybe they've just graduate, waited from school or getting back into the workforce. They do the str thing for eighteen months and they think, yeah, I want to go over and work in like demand Jen on my team or something else. So we try really hard to make that connection. I could see how it'd be easy to break down, and I I don't know what the right word is, pushed, probably pretty hard to understand where people are going and why and and I think the rest of the team just too. Yeah, I think that's a great point, that it's not just about U. SDR to that a lot, and I'm seeing this with my own company. Lots of folks start off and junior sales rolls and end up working in marketing, working in product, working in product marketing. So there's a lot of paths for people that have had so many conversations with the customer. From my perspective, exactly and honestly, the best marketers have talked to the most customers, right. And so you know, I want my marketers, no matter what level they're up, talking to customers all the freaking time. And so if I can get an SDR or an AE, you know, to come over and be in marketing with me, that's that's all upside. I'll recruit those folks all freaking day. Awesome. Go tell the sales eater. I tell that I won't say or MOM's the word. They're not listening. So sure...

...there's another part of marketing that I know your company specifically is focused on, and that's kind of employer branding, employer marketing. Yep, and and there's a lot of that is an area of marketing that a lot of CEOS still don't have a good hold on and they're still invest completely in customer marketing without realizing that there's a whole lifesite goal and that employer marketing and customer marketing are often interwoven because of the fact that your employees are talking to customers all the time. Talk about why employer brand is such a key differentiator from a marketing perspective. Sure, absolutely, and I think there's they're just kind of two ways to think about it. One is kind of the guts qualitative, you know what I think, if you sit down and think about it makes sense. And then there you know there is data to back it up, since I talked about data earlier. Happier employees, employees that are excited about what they're doing and where they work, do better work. I'll talk about the data a little bit on that in a second, but I mean I think we all can kind of say, well, yeah, when I'm like when I'm more into what I'm doing, I'm better at it. Because I'm more engaged, I play more attention, I probably push harder and because I care more. Right, and so we do that. You know, culture eat strategy for breakfast. You know, in terms of we are building a company here at at bamboo, where we want people to be excited about what we're doing. And it doesn't mean, you know, all the free lunches and and lots of lots of Ping Pong and what are those balls where you stand in them and then you roll around and hit each other? You do a lot of that kind of stuff and it's not common enough that I can instantly think of the now I did once at a work thing. It's like SMO wrestling one and you roll. Yeah, it's not. It's fun, but but it's about you know, how do you create a culture that is living the values that that you lay out? I've never been at a place that lives its values and I've been at some wonderful company, smarts, she was...

...a wonderful company, but the values here at bamboo are embedded and having people feel like they're a part of what they're doing, at what we're doing at bamboo, and that we're growing this together and that we're building together. I think people do better work when they feel that way and it doesn't mean you don't hold them accountable. It doesn't. It's not Disneyland Right, birds aren't landing on our fingers and people are whistling and squirrels run up and dressed in the morning or anything, but it means that, like, we respect each other and we care and no matter what role you're in, that that holds true and that means, in my opinion, that we're better at our jobs. You know, and there is you can say, like I know there's a study that was done that said for every point on glass door that you got raised, customer sat goes up like one and a half points. And so you start to see the kind of, I think, what a lot of us feel instinctual about, like well, yeah, if I'm happier, I do better work. It starts to show an actual numbers that you get, that MPs or customer sat number to raise, and so that's that's kind of the instinctual part, or qualitative part. On the kind of more external part, we live in a world in which you can't hide a bad culture for long and we've seen companies, I mean I've had companies as kind of customers. At some of these tech companies that have gone through this huge there the Unicorn, there the thing of the day. Nobody can beat them, and it doesn't take long if their culture isn't good and if their employees aren't feeling like they're being treated in a humane and respectful way, for that just to blow freaking up right. And so with between glass door and and all the other transparency tools that we have now, there's just no way to get around it. And customers, because of that transparency, and I think because we all want to support things where you know, where people are happy in the culture is good, are voting with their their dollars. People just are in a way that they maybe couldn't before because it wasn't as transparent. So,...

...like I said, I think there's an innate thing and I think there's a transparency thing where it just matters and if people are unhappy to company, not only does it show in their work, it is out on the Internet Pretty Dang fast. Let's assume people are happy. What is a if I'm a CEO or I'm a VPM marketing, what how do I start working on the employer brand? How do I intentionally build the employer brand to reflect, hopefully, what is happy employees. Absolutely so, you know, I think a lot of it is listening and so, you know, whether it's identifying what your values are as a company. And you know lots of companies have values, but are they really building them from reality? It's kind of like building from the reality of your product as well, like your employee brand has to be based on reality. And so a lot, a lot of listening about how things are going and building that brand together. And you know, different employee brands can be good but different. You know what I mean. You can have a brand that is you know, well, we work a ton, but we think it's worth it because of x or you know, we really look at work life integration or whatever it is, pulling out what employees really are loving and then creating your employee brand based on that reality means it will actually land. And so you know, we constantly, in fact we're just about to kick off again, talking to employees and saying and we do the MPs, you know, which we have in our product twice a year. So we're getting active feedback from everything on one on ones, two anonymous surveys all the time, but we're also going back and saying, okay, who are we now that we're a thousand people, and how do we make sure that we consistently talk about our brand, both internally and externally? We're just about to kick that off, because as you grow, you got to make sure that you continue to be aligned with with what you're utilizing as your brand. So important, Abe, it's been. It's been an awesome having you on the show. One of the things that we do right at the end is we want to pay it forward a little bit. We want...

...to figure out who are your influences. What books do you think are really really important if I want to become, you know, ahead of marketing for incredible company like bamboo? who were the mentors that have influenced you along the way? It really is people or ideas that have really had a strong impact on you that you think we should know about? When I framely like that, what comes to mind for you? Oh Gosh, so many things. So I am a history nerd and I still read like British history about Winston Churchhill and the S. that's what I'm reading right now, the splendid in the vile book, so good and you know, I do think by learning how historical figures have managed crisis, whether they're not. I mean, was in church like us, was a little bit in marketing, right, but he that wasn't his main Gig and learning about that, I think, is always helpful. But Bill Hill, the man that I worked for for so long, has been a huge mentor to me. He taught me about the importance of product in marketing, which is huge. And then, in terms of some business books, I love atomic habits. I'm rereading it right now. That idea of little things that have big results and I've seen executives execute on that in terms of small changes, big, big results and and I love that. And I'm a huge and I know this you know is probably like everyone says this, but the growth mindset is big and satia talks about that at Microsoft. But I think we all all need to look at that book. I would say read it, read it annually and understand the difference and what you can do with a growth mindset. Awesome, Amy, if folks want to reach out to you, maybe they're inspired, maybe they want to dig in a little bit on some of the things that you said. They want to argue that's fine, I can take it. Yeah, exactly. Your husband's listening and he's exactly. What's your preferred method of communication? How should people return? Absolutely well, I'm a FRAMPTON BAMBOO HRCOM and I would love to hear from folks, even if they disagree, and especially if they disagree. That's the fun part. Awesome, amy. It's been fantastic...

...having you as a guest on the show. We're going to talk to on Friday for Friday fundamentals. I look forward to it. Thanks so much. Thank you. Hey, everybody. Sam Jacobs Great Conversation with Amy Frampton. She's led an incredible life. We talked a lot about a lot of things. First of all, we talked about what's the key to success when your chiefest staff, not a job that all of us have considered. Trust. Trust between you and the person that you are chief of staffing, because if you don't have trust then you can't drive influence, you can't drive outcomes within the organization, but if you do you can serve as the extension of the CEO, the Celo and, as a consequence, get, as she said, sort of a Meta Mba. So that's really interesting career path and I think one that's growing in Burton because we're hearing more and more about it. Second thing we talked about her, not the second thing we talked about, but I'm not sure what order it was, but sales development. WHO SHOULD THEY REPORT TO? Here's the point that I took from it. Everybody's always saying, Oh, sales development wants to become a CON executives. We got to make sure that the reports sales and and I'll tell you from first end experience, I'll tell you from from Amy's perspective. There are many more paths for people that have cut of conversations with customers all day and simply becoming any conexecutive. And I think the default assumption that every sgr wants to become an AE is not true and I think that's actually quite liberating. I think you can build that into the the professional development career path in that you have for SDRs, if you make it abundantly clear that products a career path, customer success or expansions a career path, sales as a career path, product itself, marketing as a career path. So just the idea that in a fast growing company new opportunities abound, not just in sales, but across the organization and as people join the Sales Development Organization and maybe should be called customer development, who knows? They have many more choices and that means that maybe the SDR team can report to marketing or sales or some other, some other team. And I've always said the you know, the answer to that question for me is whoever the best manager is, you know, the maybe sometimes the best manager is the marketer, and so as a consequence of that, maybe...

...it makes sense for us, yes, to report to marketing. So I thought it was great conversation. Really enjoy talking about it. Of course, the final thing we talked about is just the importance if employer brand. I worked at the MEWS. I can I can underscore that. It's all interconnected. I think, you know, one of the things that she talks about is just this idea that people want to buy from places where they know that those companies treat the employees well, and I think that that's really true and it's all it's all synergistic. Right. One point in improvement and employee satisfaction translates to one point five points and improvement in net promoter score or customer satisfaction. So it's something that everybody has to be thinking about. If you don't know what your employer brand is, you best commence an exercise to discover it, because it's out there whether you whether you do that or not, and you want to be more intentional about controlling it, creating it, spreading the message around it. So great conversation. We want to thank our sponsors before we go. The first is outreach. Check out how outreach does outreach? Head on over to outreach out I aford slash on outreach to see what they've gone going on. Second is pavilion. Take a look at our course catalog at join PAVILIONCOM and figure out if you want to take sales school to become an outstanding account executive, if you want to take frontline manager school to learn how to lead great teams, or if you're ready to hop to the c sweet take chief customer officer, Chief Marketing Officer, chief for having to offer their school and take that next step in your executive career. So unlock your professional potential at joint PAVILIONCOM. Find the air call set a new standard for sales productivity and performance by switching to a phone system that's best friends with your crm. Get twenty percent off. That's twenty percent off your first three months at air call, at are call, salesaccercom. Thanks again for listening. If you haven't given us five stars, please do that. Heading over the itunes store, at the spotify store. Give us five tunes. If you haven't joined the sales hacker community yet, go to salesacercom. Over twentyzero professionals just like you sharing experiences, sharing insights. It's amazing. If you want to get in touch with me, you can. You can email me Sam at join Pavilioncom. I'll talk to you next time.

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