The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 11 months ago

163. Objections? You've Already Lost the Deal w/ Neal Patel


In this episode of the Sales Hacker podcast, we have Neal Patel, the CRO of Crunchbase, an information resource that we all know and love. We talk about why salespeople need to be businesspeople first and why objection handling means that you’ve already lost.

What You’ll Learn

  1. How to marry your ambitions to create success
  2. Lessons in poverty and humility
  3. Ways to connect the dots so you kick ass and take names
  4. Principles of team leadership
  5. Objecting handling means you've already lost
  6. Who motivated and taught Neal along the way

Show Agenda and Timestamps

  1. How to marry your ambitions to create success [7:04]
  2. Lessons in poverty and humility [9:12]
  3. Ways to connect the dots so you kick ass and take names [11:31]
  4. Principles of team leadership [14:58]
  5. Objecting handling means you've already lost [20:11]
  6. Who motivated and taught Neal along the way [25:24]
  7. Sam’s Corner [28:58]

One, two, one, three, hey everybody. Sam Jacobs, welcome to the salesacker podcast. We're incredibly excited to have on today's show Neil Patel. He's the chief Revenue Officer of crunch base. It's a great conversation about some of the non obvious things that go into making sales people successful. In addition to answering the question why, if you were objection handling your are you've already lost the deal, which is and he's got a great a great answer there, which ties in a lot of other elements that we talked about during the conversation. So hope you listen now. Before we get there, we've got two sponsors on today's show. The first is, of course, outreach. Outreach is the number one sales engagement platform. Outreach triples the productivity of sales teams and empowers them to drive predictable and measurable revenue growth by prioritizing the right activities and scaling customer engagement with intelligent automation. Outreach makes customer facing teams more effective and improves his ability into what really drives results. Of course, we have another sponsor. It's a new sponsor. It's a company some of you may have heard of. It's a company called linked in. Today's virtual selling environment demands a new kind of approach, one that prioritizes the buyer above all else. As the world's largest professional network with seven hundred and twenty two million members, that is a lot of million members, Linkedin is the only place where buyers and sellers connect, share and drive success for each other. Every day. Find new ways to connect with your bias virtually. With linkedin sales navigator, you can learn more or request a freed demo at business dot linkedincom forward sales stations. Again, that URL is business dot linkedincom forward sales solutions. Now, without further do lets list of my conversation with Neil patwl. Hey, everybody, it's Sam Jacob's welcome to the salescacer podcast. Today we're honored and excited to have on the show Neil Pat out. Neil is the chief revenue officer of crunch base, a service set of information and Resources and an information resource that we all know and love. As Cro Neil leads the business development, strategic partnerships, sales, customer success and customer experience organizations.

In this role, Neal and his organization of contributed to tripling the company's unique users, increasing annual recurring revenue by over twenty x and landing partnerships with large brands like Linkedin, Oracle, Yahoo, business insider, Amazon and snow flee. Neil has over two decades of deal making and go to market experience, specifically focusing on executing progressive growth strategies, landing strategic partnerships and building revenue generating streams. Before joining crunch base in two thousand and sixteen, Neil spent a little over eight years of Google working on various business development and gytm initiatives, including leading global partnerships for Google search, growing market footprint for Google fiber and helping to expand Google maps. Neil, welcome to the show. Thanks to routs there, we're excited to have view. So we start with your baseball card. We know your cro of crunch base. I kind of mangled the description there at the intro and I'm sure there's a more succinct way of characterizing but let's say there's somebody out there in the world somewhere that hasn't heard or doesn't know what crunch bases. How would you describe? What you will do? Yeah, sure, so. Crunch base is really the only reasonably accessible place on the Internet you can go to to find organized, normalized information about companies, and that's relevant to any businessperson who interacts with companies or seeks opportunities with companies. So that could be salespeople trying to sell it could be the other side of it, buyers trying to buy things. It could be investors and entrepreneur is trying to coffect with each other. It could be job seekers, recruiters, market researchers and so on, and are what we're trying to do a crunch bas is, basically unlock access to this information and help people pursue those opportunities. That's our mission and that's why we show up to work every day. Well, that's awesome. And then, as a frequent user, I am appreciative of the service and of the information that you make public, because it's otherwise, to your point, incredibly difficult to find it. How big is the organization? You know we I know about crunch base... a you know, as the service that I use. But what's the company like? How big is it? How bigs your sales team? What are you selling exactly? Those are interesting questions for us. Yeah, sure. So we were about a little over a hundred fifty employees now and growing. So that's that numbers a moving target upwards every day. And the the kind of Revenue Org is is about twenty five percent of that ish, maybe a little bit more. And you know, I think you ask what we sell. Is that right? Is that yeah, yeah, because I'm not sure. Is it's sponsorships? Is it paid membership? Great Strings, great question, great questions. So so, as I mentioned, like what we try to do is help people find companies that they should be pursuing opportunity with, understand and gain insights about those companies. Sometimes we recommend companies to people and then we help them connect with those companies and ultimately engage and close opportunities. And whatever context is, whether you're obviously in sales or if you're an investor or entrepreneur look for funding, if Your Business Development team trying to find partners, job seekers and so on. And the way we what we the services we provide to enable people to do that. Our kind of span a spectrum, if you will. So we offer a free service, so you can just come to crunch space and check out our profile. So companies and if that helps you understand a little bit more about a company, your you're looking to do to pursue an opportunity with, that's great. If you find a new company, that's great, and you can go off and get some value out of crunch space then and we're happy to help you with that. If you want a little bit for more functionality, we ask people to register. That's also free, obviously in a monetary sense. When you register, we obviously let us know a little bit about you and therefore we can like recommend better experience for you in the product showcase companies that we think you might care about. We need able to create lists and things like that, save lists and so on. Then it just follows sort of a premium path where, if you want, if you want even more functional, be more access to different things, we have a starter skew tell people get get a little bit more valuable we're doing. And then one of the top use cases on sun punt face our sales people trying to get those insights about companies, trying... build their prospecting lists and trying to engage with those prospects, and we have a we have a product that's tailored for them, which is called crunchybace pro. That's great for people that want to come to crunch face and and utilize our platform and engage within our platform and sort of like conductor or workflow within our platform. But we also have a lot of people who already have their own tools and really urged in working with count face from a perspective of Hey, can you can I get? Can you integrate with the tools that I have? So your data feeds my tools and we integrate via application integrations that we've built. And you can also integrate, but by licensing rapi and our data directly and and then ingested in your internal tools to help you do the things that I talked about before. Or, alternatively, you may want to build your own application on top of crunch base, and we let you do that too. So we I'm cry top of Crunch Bas Day. Will you do that too, so you can come to crunch base, take our data and build your own product and help the world in different ways, whatever way you see you deem valuable based on the information of crunch base has. That is a complete and robust description and eliminating. So so thank you for that. You've been there a long time. You've been there since two thousand and sixteen, but we're always curious how people got into sort of the the journey of revenue leadership in the first place. You, I also mentioned, of course, that you were instra teaching partnership to Google and you spend a long time at Google. But how did you first enter the go to market field and what's your background that led you here? Yeah, a great question. My background is I'd love to tell you that, you know, fifteen years ago or twenty years ago, I had a I had a vision for exactly what I was going to do and I was going to be a crow Wenday. But that's a total lie. I don't even think there was a there was a job titled Crrow. I think it's pretty news. So I've been fortunate enough to have people around me in my life and to have opportunities with themselves up where it's enabled me to really pursue some things that I thought were interesting and skill sets that I thought were valuable to add to me,... to make myself just more better business person and many in some cases, just a better person. So you know my path. You can you guys you can see from linkedin or and such, I was an engineer who then went to law school. You know, I basically I liked math and science and therefore I would became became an engineer. But I I also recognize that there were things that were hard for me, number one, persuading people to do things or reading writing persuasively. I was a little shy. So, you know, like like any any wise person, I just to go better way to develop in those areas than go to law school and get and jump into the fire. But it all serious as I also recognize that, you know, there was just coming from, you know, my eye background, my whole fan really, like Bilin, really was a lawyer in the United States and our families here by extended families here, and so I thought it would be good for someone in the family to understand, understand the law, understand policy, understand how things worked on at that level here, and so was a good marriage at those two those who like ambitions I had, I probably saw for a while. I liked a lot, but not that I find myself being more interested in the business side of the transactions I was working on. Why was this company acquiring that company? Why I was just company getting funding. What was you doing? That was the work that you were doing in the law. You're doing the corporate transaction or corporate attorney. That's correct. Yeah, yeah, and it was great. But again, like as I as my interest became more aligned with the business side of think or started to sort of gravitating to a business. I thinks, I realize that that's that's probably where I want. That the kind of space I wanted to be in. And, to be honest, at that time I didn't even know it go to market ment, much less like anything beyond that. I didn't even know what kind of like, what kind of industry I would valuable in, what role I would be valuable in. And so I took some time to to think that through and, long story short, I decided what better way to get exposure and become good at business than to start my own company. So I wisely started a company with this idea that I had, with a few friends. It wasn't a financial success, but it was a...

...great learning and it led me to a place where I could talk to some people from Google and I got an opportunity to join Google maps early on in a business development rolled helped help build that Pott. What about what was the company that you started? We made it's gone now, it's long gone, but we made organic, sustainably made children's close with an Eastern Asian esthetic. So I called it baby diesel with a side Amassala. I mean that's it sounds like. I'm sure there's a market for that, but it was. It was it was lack of resources, or what do you attribute it was? I would love to tell you it. You know, we started the company. I would let me tell you was rat lack of resources or other things that there were. There are a few things that didn't go our way, but one of them is simply timing and also just some some some mistakes. We make it we made along the way, to be honest, but they were good lessons learned. You know, my cofinders and that business were still super tight. We've all gone on to do other things and and I think we look back upon that time pretty like with smiles on our faces, because it was. It was really fun and and made us appreciate some of the things we didn't know. We didn't know. I started a business when I first got out of UNDERGRAD and I call those days it failed, as my business failed, and I called it the bad old days. When I refer to that's right, the three I learned a lot lessons and poverty and humility. That's what I say. That's exactly right. Right. So you got to Google and you join the Google maps team, but still in this in this history, there's no like formal kind of go to market train or sales training, and yet it's pretty clear that you've become really, really good at it over the last decade or so. What was the moment that crystallise where you sort of Said, Oh, I get it, I'm a there's a new thing called chief for even officer, or head of sales or head of revenue. That's the person that I am. I helped companies grow their revenue. Yeah, it continued to follow that path and me just opening up my eyes to different, different things I wanted to get good at. So... Google, like I started doing, it was obviously a business development Google maps, which involved a lot of things that were analogous to what I was doing as a lawyer and in the business owner, which was thinking about markets, what markets to go to, why they were important markets, taking resourcing. The Google gave us and trying to figure out how to expand the product, grow the product, doing deal structuring, deals, negotiating deals, working with partners after the deals to make sure things were working the way we both intended. And in many ways, like I was, I was selling right, you're always selling, like, actually, somebody who was just telling me yesterday, like even a doctor cells, they've got to sell. A surgeon has to sell you on the idea of them cutting you open. And I realized that that skill was something that was there in many people that are higher up at Google and even peers that I just respected, and so I started trying to find ways where, you know, I could just learn about learn about sales and learn about customers. I got really good at Biz Dev and partnerships and understanding markets and market penetrations things like that. But but I really wanted to get into that other side of the business, which is which was like, quite frankly, just how do you set up repeatable, scalable ways to make money right? And that led me to doing things like advising startups on that front. And, you know, Google, still love that company. There's a great place, and met a lot of great people that taught me lots of great lessons. So between those two kind of avenues I didn't have like a moment where I was like Oh, this would be something cool to do, but an opportunity surface to leave, to go join a start up and be be a CR row. So I left then join that startup and it was a brief stint as a crow, as a different kind of company. We was mostly large deal driven, which kind of married well with my Bisdev experience, but we sold a company really fast after I joined and then I had another opportunity service at crunch base and that's when it all kind of came together where my build up, if you like, all the dots that I had, using an old steve jobs graduation speech to connect the dots, I kind of at that moment I was like wow, I can connect my dots here, all these little different skills and experiences I've had. Crunch...

...base is the type of company and the people here that are like there's an opportunity where I could I could really fit well here and I could add a lot of value and I could learn a lot, and that's when the pats started to kind of for me being like yeah, this is this is opportunity going to pursue and luckily I got the job and here we are and five years later you're kicking ass and take a names. Well, that's not that's an awesome, awesome journey, and you know, you've seen so many different perspectives and I guess I'm carrying us. You know, when you think about the you now run an organization. I guess twenty five percent of you know, one hundred and fifty is, I don't know, forty five people, I guess, or forty nine. Maybe it's not. It's thirty five people, but it's a lot of people. Yes, right, I think I may have got the percentage wrong. It's about for you, somewhere between forty five fish people. As there's my bad meth saves me again. Right, I don't better be lucky than right. That's just agree completely. What do you what have you learned in terms of leading teams, in terms of the principles that you use to coach and lead these people? How you teach them? I know that one of the things that you've talked about is they need to be business people first. What are your principles of leadership as you think about leading refn organization? Yeah, good question. So just in terms of principles, I think it's really it's a few things, you know. I think first and foremost, like I learned along the way to really like my I do best when I'm when I am radically authentic, like if you talk to my team, like they will, there is there are no different versions of meal. I am who I am and then and I'm super, super authentic. It sometimes to a flaw, but I believe like that is the foundation from which I can become a good leader. And I know people through around the world be authentic a lot these days. But you really have to understand authenticy come comes in many manifests in many places, right. So I like all the jokes. I like to be funny, I like to like... make fun of people sometimes, you know, hopefully a good way. I'm also self deprecating. I've folded that into my leadership stuff, right, and I bring it up in everyday conversations. You know, I'm also highly, highly, sometimes overly energetic. Sometimes I don't try to hide that stuff. I just mold my leadership style around those things that naturally just occur in me and I think that's important at it. You know, there's times in the past when I haven't been a good leader and how many times it's because I was trying to be somebody that I wasn't. So I think that's a one really important thing. Other things what you talked about. So I don't necessarily you know, like obviously people come to a company and joined teams like ours to perform in certain roles, but you hopefully, you know, hope, you hopefully you're going to perform in that role and helping you execute in that particular role and in winning is amazing and awesome and definitely a huge part of my job. I you know, I love that. You know, everyone loves, loves, like she just said, kick an acid taken names winning. It's great, but people also need to feel like, you know, like they're growing and there's a purpose and what they're doing. And for us, like we've found it in liked and like helping people just generally become better business. People like you will mentor a mindset this. So I don't want to steal it, but I'll quote and he said you will learn, you will learn and you will grow, and that's what we try to that's that's the opportunity to try to pride people and growing means grow as a business person. So body water. What are some of the things that you teach? You know, what are some of the things that when people join the organization, maybe you're surprised or you've learned that they don't know and that when you talk about teaching them to be business people, that you know, it's coming to mind for you as you say it, that these are the some of the lessons that we impart because people don't come into the organization with that knowledge. Sure, it's a sometime it's really simple and it can be. It can be folded into transparency practices the people have right. So, like we try to make people understand like not just what their job is and what...

...their team does, but what other teams do and why those things are important, and what other organizations in Corntas do and why those things are important. What crunch bases overall strategy is, why that is the right strategy, what the questions are that maybe are uncertain, that we have uncertainty on respect to executing that strategy, how that fits in the broader market. Like these are things we talked about a lot on a team. So just having that higher level view is one aspect of it, like word, is what I do fit into the big picture. Who are all the other players and why are they doing what they are doing? Is something that's that's ever present in our conversations and in even in like you know, we had had a queer path conversation with an a earlier this morning. We make that part of their career path to not just expose them to it but but require them to demonstrate that they're that they're picking up on these things and applying it and not the not only the context we provide. We we teach them in it, but applying it to other contexts. It's also this kind of blend, a kind of transitions into like selling. Like one of the things I tell my sales team is you should understand the business of your prospect very deeply, more than you should, like consid, in some cases more than you should even understand the person who you're POC is, because if you don't know about that company, you don't know about their industry, the trends in the industry, who they compete with, how they're doing personally with that person that as an entity within that space, are they growing? Are they're shrinking? If they're growing. Why are they growing? What are the challenges they're facing? If you're able to to even poke a little bit at that, all of a sudden, the person on the other side of the you know, this side of the zoom call, I guess these days, you know, views you in a different light. Right you're not someone who's just trying to who just knocked on my door, if you will, just trying to pitch me something. You have some level of, hopefully serious, understanding of what I'm going through, all my over going, my companies going through, and if I'm actually situated to get value from the thing you're trying to sell to me, I view that as being good business. Right like that. Those are those are companies. You want to do that your physics comes you want to do business with...

...and they should want to do business with you. So then your job as a salesperson is simply to connect those dots, which is a way better perspective, in my opinion, to approach a sales process. I love it. One of the things that you've mentioned is you think that objection handling means you've already lost. Explain, because that's a pretty controversial statement, which is great for podcast fodder. But what what do you mean when you say that? And you know, what should people do instead? Yeah, well, it's it is a little bit. It's definitely a dramatic statement and I certainly, like we do buzz, need a headline. Hold it totally. It is a forget. When I first said I think I set it out in all hands just to get people to listen to me, because I think I was at the worked out I was being boring and I recognized I was being boring, so I said, let me throw this out there and see what people see, what happens. So, of course, just a level set like, yes, like, you do have to have to prep your team to handle objections. that. That is not that is not what I'm saying at all. Like we have that. We do at a crunch base. I think that's a good thing to do, but the year immediately undermind. Once that to the articles. But the subjection should be very baseline, simple things. Right, you objection, handle a lower level question or problem or issue, like you know you have a kilsheet to deal with a competitor, for example. You know, I'm going to go at XYC, competitor of yours. Yes, you objection handle that. But what I really mean by that is is creating context for your success through all of the interactions you're having with a potential prospect. If you are thinking, if you so, using the example I just gave about understanding a company, if you understand a company deeply and you know, or believe, I guess, that they are situated well to buy for on you and that they will get value from this, you can set contact. Some people call it control the message, but you can set context through your engagement with that prospect so that that that is the the...

...tone of the conversation is already there. Like you don't have to objection handle anything and turn like all those things about. Well, I don't know if this is a you know, need to have and this might be a nice to have. You should already know that. Right if your objection handling need to have versus nice to have, you've lost. You should be approaching prospects from the perspective and have a plan in place for its immediate upfront. Right now, you we are a need to have and you know that prospect and we're going to talk, we're going to we're going to talk about things from that perspective and that comes from preparing and understand the account. It comes from understanding your product super well, right. That's the other part of creating context resists. You really have to understand your product, understand all the different use cases, understand how different personas, meaning and user personas, might be interacting with your product and what they're doing, what they like, what they don't like. Right. So, when you approach your prospect you very much like you have sort of you have a very now like agile set of frameworks and sets of conversation lines, if you will, in your in your head or hopefully documented in front of you. Said, no matter what direction this conversation goes, you are not handling an objection being being push toward you. You are more directing a conversation and whatever context gets raised, you can still move forward in that context, and that's why I like. If you do that right, you actually you probably never get any serious objections you have to handle. You will just continually navigate different contexts and worst case you might hit had an impast but worst case that impass will will be well, let's just talk again, because we need to think about some things. And so your point really is exactly to your point if, if you are handling those objections, it means you didn't prepare well enough at the outset and didn't control the conversation from the beginning and now you're back peddling that. I right. That's right. How'd you learn? Like, how did you quit? How did all of that crystallize for you? Because, I mean, is it that you...

...took, you know, training through force management or something like that, or is it just we're repetition? Because I think it's a it's a fairly sophisticated perspective on selling. A lot of people are just completely focused on the right type of salesperson or just running the right sales process, but not really on preparation, context and understanding. How did you develop these ideas or did they just come to you over the years of experience? Yeah, I think question. So part of it is it's a blend of things that like just obviously, I think, just pulling from my different experiences. So an element of this, for example, is being able to plan ahead so no matter what this process won remember what direction this conversation goes. I have I can introduce a beachhead from which I can take things forward, right, and that comes from literally just contingency planning. Right. It's very simple, right. I if you just say like, okay, I'm going to play through this scenario. How is this called we go, or how is this meeting going to go? Here in the different directions that can go, and I'm going to create each of this inn ours. I'm going to have a plan for each of this in ours. That is something really like a very basic element of like deal structuring, dealmaking business development. So I got some of that training, you know, when I was at Google doing bd. But you can apply that to a sales context. It all of a sudden gets gets pretty, it makes sense and it gets really powerful and when applied to the the approach of creating context for success makes a lot of sense. Nail, we're almost at the end of our time together and one of the things we like to do at the end is get a sense for your influences, people or ideas or books. It's really anything you want us to know. You know you're recommended list. It's one or two ideas, things, people, human beings that have had particular influence on you that you want us to know about so that we can follow the bread pum trail and pay it forward a little bit. When you think about people that have had a really big impact on you or people that you think we should know about, who comes to mind? Oh Wow, good question. So there are a lot of people that have helped me and along the way, and I'm going to Ripphilo. So...

...there are. You know, I've been remissage to say like like some of this isn't going to be relevant to your audience, because there's a lot of people just like my family, you know, like my parents, like not going to go on this podcast, but one day when we get out of beer, I'll tell you a story of like what my mom and dad did, how they like how they came to be here in the challenge they had right. So the things like that motivated me. I think there's lots of people out that have those stories about their families. To when I think about public personas, the sounds nuts, but to simple in a sense, like very obvious. But I just gave you a quote from seed jobs commencement address about connecting the dots. There are things like that that for that, if you if you read about him in the early days, that I think are really valuable. And then it helped me it sounds it sounds like a cop out to say see jobs. I think a lot of people say things like that, but I really have, like I've I've read. I've read about his life. I know, I don't I know he has lots of loss there's things like that, but there are really discreet things that he did that I think are super valuable and there are other folks like that out there that I'm trying to think of the top of my head, other folks that I can't think. That kind of got me on the spot because I wasn't I'm sorry, I wasn't very sad of thinking about other people are completely considered really as no, but yeah, I mean, that's okay. Steve Jobs is a good answer. And and it's not irrelevant to say your parents, because they you know, I would the first person I typically mentioned is my mom. I Love My dad too, I love them, but my mom as a special as a special place and just in terms of her work ethic and her discipline. And Anyway, I will. I will now that I have a quick second. Thank you for giving me this space to yeah, you're alcome. I was awesome. That was awesome. I read a lot of Ray Dahlia. There's a book he wrote that's very popular called principles. I think like that. That is a book I would recommend reading, I think. I think that's pretty cool. And then this isn't. But this isn't...

...really unnecessarily a person per se, but like there's a lot of folks this, but there are a few folks that they that practice something called mindfulness, and I think that's a really important thing. Do we google search on mindfulness? Mindfulness, meditation, my mindfulness awaren like behavior and just learning about that and trying to apply to my booth, my personal professional life has helped me a lot. Mine too. Neil, if folks are listening and they want to get in touch with you, maybe they want to work for you, maybe they want to buy some crunch base. What's your prefer myth of communication? How should people reach out to you? Send a message up on Linkedin, easiest, simplest place. Awesome. Thanks so much for joining us. We're going to talk to you on Friday for Friday fundamentals and thank you for being our guest on the Sales Syde of podcast. Thanks and was great to be here. Appreciate everyone. It's Sam Jacobs. You're listening to SAM's corner. I really enjoyed that conversation with me. To tell you can really tell that he's he's got exactly the right executive temperament that one needs to succeed at companies these days, because he's passionate and energetic but also calm. That's the sense that I got from and at least maybe I was misreading it, but I think he's probably a great leader and Presch Bass obviously done fantastic work over the five years that he's been there. So what did we talk about that stuck out to me? Two things of import that I thought were interesting, and the first is really this concept that they talked about that sales people need to be business people first, and I think I just want to underscore that. I obviously mode most of you know, I I'm the CE of a company called revenue collective and we have this thing chief for every officer school, Cro School, and one of the first classes we teach is this class that I teach called theory of enterprise value. And what's the point that I'm making? So many sales leader, so many sales people, they do not have a theory of value. They don't understand. They haven't thought about what makes companies great. And I don't mean how many how much money companies have praised.

I don't mean WHO's the most famous company. I mean the mechanics that make companies function, the context in which company sit and what are the things that companies do in order to drive and generate value. And that's something that Neil spends time teaching a sales team and, as he as he points out, what that does is it helps the salespeople focus on one of the thing he didn't say it explicitly, but this is one of the things that happens is you focus on outcomes. You focus on business outcomes, not products and features of your service, because you are you're displaying empathy, you are thinking about the world old from the perspective of how business is generate value, particularly your prospects. He also mentioned that just internal education about how the company works, why it's organized in a certain way, what the strategy is. All of that is contexts and context is the thing that helps you understand how to make decisions when you're on your own. And so I might I think it's just a really important point, and even at the VP of sales and CRO level. The reason that we teach it at zero school and revenue collective is because not enough people do know it and you make a lot of bad decisions when you don't understand fundamentally how businesses operate and you think that the only way to grow revenues to hire tons and tons of salespeople. So I thought that was really interesting. And then I thought the point that he made about, you know, why objection and handling means that you've already lost is really interesting. Obviously not the common objections, but the thing he said is, if it's if you're debating need to have versus nice to have with your prospect, you've already lost. Completely agree with that. It's all about you know. He used a phrase that was popular as by force management, command of the message. Take Control of the message, command the message and then you can control the conversation a specific way. Doesn't mean talk over your prospect you means have a narrative that you can leverage, that answers questions in advance and anticipates objections and underscores why those aren't really objection. So I thought it was a great conversation. Thanks for listening. If you're not a part of the salesacker community. Yet you're missing out. So any sale professional can join the salesacer community to ask questions, get immediate answers and share experiences with likelinded be to be sales pros. Jump in the started discussion with more than tenzero sales professionals... sales hackercom. Of course, we want to thank our two sponsors, linked in. Thank you, linkedin. You're a great company. We love you, Linkedin, and just that they're find new ways to connect with your bier virtually with linkedin sales navigator. Who doesn't need sales navigator? You can learn more request of Free Demo, though you are. I'll just remind you of business dot linked incom for slash sales solutions. That's business dot linked incom for slash sales solutions. Also, of course, we always want to thank outreach, the number one sales engagement plot form. Thank you for listening. If you wouldn't be so kind, or if you would be so kind as to give us a five star review on the itunes store, please do that. When I have a four point five, which I know who's out there like rating podcasts negatively. I don't even have time to write podcast at all, let alone go on there and like shit on somebody. But Anyway, maybe I'm greatness and maybe maybe I made an enemy somewhere. I was just trying to pull up the PODCAST and ended up hitting play. Sorry for the for the audio intrusion, but anyway, the point is along the side. The point is please it's five stars on the ITUNES store. And by the way, if you'd like to get in touch with me, you can find me on linked in at linkedincom forward, slash the word in for MF Jacobs. You can email me Sam. That reven it quick, thecom that's the company around that maybe you should join. And of course, I will see you next time.

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