The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

161. The #1 Thing That Will Make You the Most Productive Person on Your Team w/ Mike Levy

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Overview:

Today, on the show we've got Mike Levy, who's the co-founder and CEO of TitanHouse, a platform focused on one core market — tech sales. Mike is a career salesperson, turned co-founder and CEO, and he's got a really inspiring story to share with us. We're excited to bring it to you.

What You’ll Learn

  1. How to move from contributor to leader
  2. What drives success
  3. VP of sales vs chief revenue officer vs chief executive officer
  4. Distinguishing between perseverance and a failed strategy
  5. How to assess both sales leaders and candidates
  6. A tribute to the entrepreneurial spirit

Show Agenda and Timestamps

  1. How to move from contributor to leader [6:30]
  2. What drives success [11:30]
  3. VP of sales vs chief revenue officer vs chief executive officer [17:00]
  4. Distinguishing between perseverance and a failed strategy [19:00]
  5. How to assess both sales leaders and candidates [22:30]
  6. A tribute to the entrepreneurial spirit [27:30]
  7. Sam’s Corner [31:00]


 

Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Before we jump into today's show, I've got two very special announcements for you. One, it's sales hackers birthday. Sales Hacker has been around since two thousand and thirteen, but on this day, one year ago, we became a true sales community and have grown to nearly eighteen thousand members already. Now any sales professional can join as a member of sales hackercom, ask questions and get fast and thoughtful answers. And the second announcement is that this very podcast just hit one million lifetime downloads. So we're celebrating all week long and we want to give out an exclusive prize to you are amazing listeners. To enter to win, go to the first discussion threat on sales haccercom and drop the link to your favorite sales hacker podcast episode. Thank you so much for tuning into the show and being a part of our community. Now let's get into it. One, two, one, three, three, hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the Sales Haacker podcast. Today on the show we've got Mike Levy, who's the cofounder and CEO of a really cool company called titanhouse. Mike's a career salesperson turned cofounder and CEO, and he's got a really inspiring story to share with us. We're excited to bring it to you. Before we do that, we want to thank our sponsors. The first is outreach. Outreach has been a longtime sponsor the podcast and they just launched a new way to learn outreach. On outreach is the place to learn how outreach does outreach. Learn how the team follows up with every lead and record time after virtual events and turns those people into customers. You can all to see how outreach runs, account based plays, managers, reps and so much more using their very own sales engagement platform. Everything is back by data bold from outreach processes and customer base. When you're done, you'll be able to do it as well as they do. Had to outreach. That I a forward slash on outreach to see what they've got going on. Our second sponsor is proposed of by most businesses. Measure and optimize every part of the sales process, except the most critical part, right before a prospect agrees to buy and hands over their money. You wouldn't send leads through your marketing site without tracking an analytics. Right. So, are you still in the dark about what happens in your sales process after your rep sent a proposal? Discover Proposal Fi, the proposal software that gives...

...you control an insight into the most important stage of your sales process, the clothes. And speaking of the clothes, propose of five proposals close at double the industry standard rate. Sign up for a free trial or book a demo at propose a FYCOM forward slash salesacker. And without further ado, let's listen to my conversation with Mike leavy. Hey, everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the salesacker podcast. Today on the show we're super excited to have Mike leavy. Mike is the CO founder and CEO of a really interesting company called Titan House. Let me read you as by and then we're going to dive into learn all about titanhouse and also all of Mike's background as both as sales contributor and individual contributor, as an acount executive and as a sales leader, and some of the big bets that he's made in his career an entrepreneur. heark. Mike has dedicated his career to building businesses. Mike started his first business when he was twenty two and then spent eighteen years helping build two very successful SASS companies. As the CEO of Tightenhouse, Mike Is Responsible for overall strategy. Prior to Titanhouse, Mike was the cro at ranking solutions, where he was responsible for the client facing business. As an original investor and member the executive team, might help build and guide ranking from Beta to two very successful pexits. Prior to ranking, Mike was a vice president of sales for I priyo. When he's not building businesses, he's got time with his kids, two daughters, his wife and his Golden Retriever, Mike. Welcome to the show. Thanks Sam. Really appreciate you having me on and looking forward to the conversation here. While we're excited to have you. So let's start with a week. We like to start with a little bit of a baseball card and really it's an opportunity for you to tell us what titanhouse does. So you're the cofounder and CEOS, but a CEO. But what is titanhouse? Sure, so tightanhouse is a platform that is focused on one core market and that is tech sales, and so our premise is to build a platform that connects the dots between tech sales hiring managers and the rep themselves,...

...and so we want to create a more efficient ecosystem that allows employers to identify, engage and hire the right reps and also allows the reps to identify, engage in connect with the right employer. Well, that's amazing. When did you start the company? Yeah, so we start that we started working on the business back in in two thousand and eighteen and we went to market last year. We read a Beta from September two thousand and twenty through the end of the year and we took the platform live in December, January and have had immediate success and really excited about our mission and the platform. And so what is what tell us about the mission? Is the mission to help sales people find exactly the right job. Is that? Is that accurate? Yeah, it's twofold. It's to help sales protect sales professionals and we're really focused on tech sales, because that's really the only thing that I know. But we're really focus on tech sales and in the mission is to give tech sales professionals real transparency into the positions and into the companies, the employers, so that they can make a smart assessment as to whether or not that's an opportunity they want to proceed with. But on the same front, we're providing the same level of transparency and clarity for the employer. And as a tech sales employer myself and someone who's hired hundreds of salespeople over the years, we also want to provide that clarity, you know, that insight for the employers so that they can make a smart decision on the right professional and if we can do that it's a better world for both parties that. It absolutely is a better world. How big is the company like? You know, however you want to frame that. How many people? Rough Revenue Range? But what, how ever, you want to answer? Yeah, sure, so we're...

...start up. You know, we're really small. Everybody does everything. We've got about fifteen employees right now. It's equally divided between sales marketing. In product we've got a couple operational people, but we're all doing everything. And from a revenue perspective, again, start up. So under a million but with very lofty ambitions. Wouldn't be a startup if not. So, you know, I read your bio at the top of the show and you've had you have this incredible background. Walk US through. How did you get here? What's your career look like? How did you move from being an individual contributor to a leader in a crow and then ultimately to a founder? Tell us about that trajectory, which is you know, that's a that could be a book unto itself, but I'm asking in like a five minute question. But but, you know, how do you want to answer that? Sure? So, you know, I love small businesses, I love startup companies. I just love the the pace. I love the opportunity to contribute and have your voice heard. And so, you know, when I got out of school many, many moons ago, you know, I started in sales and I worked as an individual contributor, as an str for financial services firm. It was right, you know, when technology was really starting to kind of take hold in so I started in internet based Kiosk business when I was really young and ran that for a couple of years. Barely made my money back, so I would call that a success. And then after that I joined a start up in DC that was called big do and big doe was a SASS platform way back in two thousand and I joined as an individual contributor. I was the the youngest member of their enterprise sales team and that was a really phenomenal experience. It was a very successful company. Big Doe went through a bunch of different private equity transactions. The business was sold to Ronas,...

...seuler and Stevenson, then to kkr, then the Goldman Sachs and on and on and in its latest you know, acquisition of the businesses that acquired big do or sold SMP. So really a phenomenal story for that company. And so I was at big dough and when it was later renamed Ipreyo, for about seven and a half years and I was, if not the top producer, one of the top producers and you know, I was exploring new opportunities, but not actively, you know, just because we were having such a great ride. In one day I got a call from the original founder of big dough, a guy named Bill Kapner, and this is back in kind of mid two thousand and seven. I had just gotten married, I just built this house. How was the top producer at this company and Bill said Hey, Mike, I'm starting another business and I'd like you to come over and take a look at it and if you like it, you can invest in it and you can help me, you know, get it going. And that business was a company called ranking, and I went over, I took a look at the platform, I did a bunch of research on the marketplace and I decided to invest every single spare scent to my name in the business and take a leap of faith and leave Ipryo and and help bill, you know, start this company called ranking. What did ranking do? Ranking provided sales and marketing data and intelligence to technology companies. So, using very kind of aggressive research methodologies, we would go in in map out the technology infrastructure in the technology you'd sit decisionmakers at the largest companies across the country in the beginning and then across the world, and we would we would structure...

...that data in a platform and then sell access to it to other technology companies that were selling into these businesses. So if it was, for an example, a security vendor, a network security vendor or a cloud security vendor, they could go into our platform and they could research any company, any and find out exactly what they're using from a security install base. They could find out who the decision makers were, what projects they're working on, all their direct contact details. So it is essentially a road map, a sales tool in a marketing tool for for technology sales people, almost like discover or or zoom info before those companies existed. Yeah, so the so discover org was our biggest competitor. We both started around the same time. We sold the ranking business first to a private equity firm called spectrum equity in two thousand and fifteen, and then in late two thousand and seventeen we sold the business to discover work through their financial sponsor, who was tea and associates. Wow, and let me ask you a questions. So we've gone a long time, you know. We're into we've gone from two thousand a two thousand and fifteen or seventeen in the blink of an eye. But how did you become when you join big dough? And by the way, big doll really was the gold standard? I worked at a company called GELOG selling to hedge funds, and we all wanted big dough access because that told us all of the information about people at Hedge funds that we couldn't find anywhere else. So you both a great product how did you become the youngest enterprise executive, you know, at the company? What was it that when you think about your early success? You know obviously there's been success as an a dividual contributor, as a manager and now as an executive in leader, but what drove your original success? Yeah, that's a good question. I tell this story often and so you know when I want to interviewed for the job at big dough I think it's just luck that I was the youngest enterprise sales professional. I again, I big deal sell sould data into the financial services community. When when I...

...forgot my first job out of school, I was selling financial services product. So I had a really good understanding of the financial services market place. I also understood technology from starting the kiosk business. So big DOE was a platform of financial services data and so it was just a natural fit. And so, you know, I think it was just luck of the draw that I interviewed at this company and I had the exact skill set that they're looking for. But it's really interesting story. And so when I was at big doe, again I'm a young professional. I'm twenty five, twenty four hundred and twenty five and I'm on this team, I'm and I've got all of these senior reps who are ten, fifteen years older than me and absolutely crushing it, and I was really kind of overwhelmed in the first couple months and I was looking at all of these individuals and about a month into the business I started to realize something and that was that the most productive people on my team, the most successful sales reps, that they didn't have any kind of supernatural power, that they didn't understand the technology anymore than I did, they didn't understand the market play us any better than I did. They made a had a little bit of, you know, experience that I didn't have, but they really didn't have anything on me that had an advantage over me. But for sure what they were doing better than I was was working harder. When I got into the office every morning they were there and on the phone and working, and during the day they seem to be working harder than I was and when I left in the afternoon they were still there going at it. And it took me about a month for me to pick up on this, as you know, as a young professional, but something clicked in my mind and it's competitive spirit. It's probably more so a fear of failure, but...

...something clicked just a month or two into the job where I said, you know what, these guys don't have anything on me. I am going to be as good or better than them, and I made it a point to make sure that I always worked harder than they did. And so I started getting in as early, if not earlier, than they did and I started working harder during the day and structured my day more effectively than they did, spent more time on the road in front of clients than they did, and then I would stay later and make sure that I was putting in the extra time. And it took a couple years, but I ended up being the top producer there, and that light bulb coming on at that moment for a young professional really kind of set my career path, because bill again, who was the founder and CEO of big dough, saw that work ethic, saw that drive of course, saw that I was a, you know, a top producer, which led to him calling me in late two thousand and seven and asking me to come over and help him get the ranking business off the ground. And so it's really interesting how that one moment, that one little window set me on this path and then a ranking, you know. You know, I started out, as you know, it's a startups. Everybody did everything, you know, is Babe, Pre Beta, Beta, bringing it to market. Everybody did everything, and then I eventually be worked my way up and I was the VP of sales for I don't know, four years or so, and then I was the chief revenue officer. So again. But it was that one moment in time in two thousand that kind of set my, you know, the course for my career. When you think about I mean you touched on it a little bit. Maybe it's fear of failure. It's really hard to put in that amount of work, or at least I found it hard to put in that amount of work if you don't truly enjoy what you're doing. Do you think that had something to do with it? was there did you find that you also really love the act of selling, or was it just like, you know, sort of like a...

STOIC, kind of like Buddhist Act of discipline? You just were resolved that you know, you're just going to do it, even if you didn't like it. Yeah, I do like the act of selling. I like working with client so I like solving their problems, you know, I think that's very fulfilling. But I also really like the startup environment that big, you know, that was big dough at that time frame, and then later ranking and now tightan house where you're all in it together. Everybody's sleeves are rolled up, we're all, you know, dirty, doing everything, and I really love that part of it. You know, it drives me today. It drives me at ranking. It drive, you know, is the driver at big deal yours building something that you really believe in, that you believe is changing marketplace, that's allowing people to be more productive, and it was really kind of that belief in the business and I have that same belief here at Titan House, which is, I guess, what's driving me today. You've seen the the you know, you've seen all the roles. For you, when you think about the difference the three executive roles of VP of sales, chief of an officer and chief executive officer and founder, what do you think are the things that separate each of those roles? Oh, very good question. So what separates a VPA sales, a crow and a CEO? Well, I mean obviously for just kind of the decisionmaking process. When you're a CEO or cro you're making decisions that are more expansive, that have a broader impact. And so you know, as a VP of sales, VPS sales, roll can take on a bunch of different you know, meeting at different company these different sizes, different industries. But a VPS sales, in my experienced is focused on a still focused on maybe not an individual team but an individual part of a business. And so you're making decisions as a VP of sales for that specific unit that you're responsible for and then as a crow...

...with responsibility of the entire client facing business, your decisions impact client success, they impact the SDR team, they impact operations, the impact account management, the impact field sales, and so your your decisions have to be elevated and more thought out in more expanses. And then your two of course, as a CEO you're going up another level because your decisions impact product your decisions impact marketing, your decisions impact operations across the scale of the business, and so you know, I think it's just the breath of the decisionmaking responsibility goes up a level or two for each role. Makes a lot of sense. You've talked about how you know how important perseverance, determination, work ethic are. How do you know what's your guide for there's a different you know, there's like perseverance and you know you keep plugging away at a problem for a very long time and ultimately see success, and then there's kind of, you know, the definition of insanity, which is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. How can you tell the different between sort of like perseverance and the wrong strategy? I guess like how do you how do you think about, like we just got to keep working harder at this thing or actually, this thing isn't the right thing to do? Yeah, it's that's a you know again, another good question. And so I think another trait that elevates VP's of sales to crows and crows the CEOS is the ability to have perseverance but also understand when they need to change. I think having very I think perseverance combined with the ability to look in the mirror and say this isn't working, we need to test something differently, we need to try another angle, we need to admit that our perseverance isn't working, is a must. have. You know, it's mandatory and so you know, I...

...think the two are exclusive from each other. I think there's lots of leaders who are great leaders. They're great leaders of teams. I think they're great. They're great leaders, could be of multiple teams, but if they don't have the ability to look themselves in the eye and say this isn't working, we're working as hard as we've ever worked, it's not working, but we need to have that same energy, that same drive, that same motivation, but focus in a different on a different angle that separates you know, the you know, the people that have the ability to kind of rise to the top. I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah, it makes sense. It's it. The question is, it's a hard question answer. It's like, do you have a framework to figure out if something's working or not, like maybe super mental progress, a dashboard, etcetera, etc. You know, we you can put that in the we're doing it today at tighthouse. You know, as we're going to market and we're feeling out new markets as a startup, we're definitely testing email messages, we're testing cadences with with our automation tools, we're testing all types of different things. In different markets and different industries, different size clients, etc. And so you definitely can dashboard it out and I think the date is really important, especially when you get a little bit bigger than what where we're at today. But you know, for me it's just a feel of at this stage it's a feel of hey, you know, we're not seeing the progress as quickly as we should be. Let's test a different message in doing that, in the ability to make those decisions quickly, are really when you hear that time and time again, you know fail fast, especially in a startup, and it's really true. But that doesn't impact your perseverance. Right, you're just you just have the ability to know that you're wrong and be okay with knowing you're wrong in taking another direction quickly. It adds a great point and that that is the...

...heart and I guess in some ways it's the perseverance is really around. This is a journey, this is a marathon. This is something we're going to accomplish over a very long time. We're going to make lots of mistakes on the way, but let's maintain our motivation in our focus as we go. For sure nobody's made more mistakes than I have over the years, but it's to but it's the drive, you know, the ultimate drive that keeps you keep you, keeps you marching down the path. One last topic before before I want to ask you is about, you know, some of your influences and some of the people you think we should know about. But one thing that I think is interesting, as you've said, that most sales leaders do a poor job assessing candidates and you actually believe that candidates do an equally terrible job assessing sales leaders. Tell us a little bit about that perspective and what's your suggested solution? Maybe maybe it's using titanhouse, but how do you think about that? So let's talk about the sales leaders first and their their ability to assess candidates. I think that sales leaders, I think there's a bunch of issues with the way sales leaders go about sourcing and assessing candidates. I think one of the biggest issues that sales leaders struggle with today is that they don't have a clear and open communication channel to their talent or sourcing teams or HR if they're even fortunate enough to have those individuals. You know, some companies are just too small and are doing it themselves, like I've done for years. But I see it time and time again where I'm talking to HR talent leaders and they don't really understand what good looks like. And that's on the sales leaders. You know, the sales leaders have a responsibility to communicate effectively to their talent sourcing teams to let them have very clear parameters of what good looks like for their Reps. in good doesn't look the same for every role, in every responsibility, every position right good can look completely different on a field ae versus, you know, an inside wrap or an SDR or...

...an account manager, and so it's up to the sales leaders to make sure that their talent teams have the information they need to get them to the right people. So that's, you know, just one, you know, one bullet there. I also believe that sales leaders spend way too much time determining who they want to move forward with in an interview process based on information on a resume. In my experience, resumes are one hundred percent inconsistent and they are all structured differently, and so as a leader who's trying to you know, you get a stack of resumes from your talent team or if you're doing it yourself, you get even a bigger stack resumes and you're reading Enthusiz the resumes and you're trying to determine who you want to move forward with, and that in itself is a broken process because, again, that data is not structured. In every resume that they're looking at, I promise is structure differently and inconsistent. So how do you determine, how do you use that information to determine who you want to move forward with? Because we're all pressed for time. As a sales leader, we're doing a million different things we'd much rather be working on with reps or moving deals forward, but yet here we are looking at resumes. We hate it, and so that's a broken process. And for sure in my career over the years, and I've hired hundreds of salespeople. Again, I've interviewed thousands, I for sure have made decisions to move forward with people I shouldn't have and for sure I've missed rock star candidates that could have been unbelievable contributors to my team based on resume and that's broken. It's just broken. And so that's a that's a huge problem. I think that saleswaters face and it's you know, it's it's part of the job. You know, you're so busy and you're moving in a million different miles a minute and the next thing you know you're looking at these resumes and you know you've got that open head count and the quotas accumulating daily, and so, you know, it adds an extra sense of urgency and I just...

...again I think it's a broken process. Part of the reason I built the system, you know, is to create more efficiency and more effectiveness around that process, to help sales leaders get to the right people really quickly and have the information that they needed at their fingertips structured in a format that they can consume. Makes makes a lot of sense. And then, therefore, the reps, you know, for the rep reps, generally speaking, do a horrible, too horrible job assessing the sales leaders in the company. You know, when a rep gets into an interview process, my experience is that they often fail to ask the heavy hitting questions, the underlying questions that determine fit and really kind of dig into the position, the flow of the position, the leadership style of that of the person you're working for, you know, and often they're not even talking to that person until the end of the interview and at that point they just want the job. You know, I've been through three or four interviews. I've spent ten hours of my life. I really want this job now. I'm not going to ask this this leader, all these heavy hitting questions. I just want them to like me. And so often because they don't ask those questions. You know, it leads to poor decisions on opportunities that are just bad fits. And then you see it in their resumes. You know, you see it in there, in their profiles, where they've got six months here and ten months there in a year and a half over there. It's not because there are poor seller or a bad corporate citizen, it's because of you know, as a bad decision, bad choice. Makes a lot of sense. Mike, we were roughly at the time of end of our time together, but one of the things we do like to do is figure out who your influences are. When you think about great books you've read, people that have really had a big impact on you, people that you think we should know about. WHO COMES TO MIND? Well, yeah, I don't know if this is appropriate or not, but I'll tell you about bill and so I mentioned Bill Kapner, was the founder of big dough and he was also the founder of ranking and he was...

...my cofounder here at titanhouse. Unfortunately, Bill passed away a couple months ago and again, I'm not sure if this is appropriate or not, but it's appropriate and I'm so sorry to hear that. Yeah, I appreciate that. Bill fall a really courageous battle against a disease that there was no cure for, als a debilitating, you know disease, and he went at it with everything he had, just like he did when he was building, you know, those two companies. And so, you know, if I don't talk about bill now, then when would i? And so, I mean he was a visionary. He really had that entrepreneur spirit in the ability to have a presence that people wanted to rally around and was able to build really great teams around him that all had, you know, tremendous drive, in belief in the vision of his companies, in his businesses, and you know, he was just a tremendous influence, I'll all across the board, from an individual contributor to leadership to the way he dealt with his employees, the cultures that he would facilitate within the businesses, the loyal following amongst his clients. You know, big dough, and then ranking people are are rabbit, big do fans and they still know the the the business and that crazy low go in. The same thing with ranking. And so you know I have to, I obviously have to talk about bill as being the biggest influence in my professional career. For sure inspiring words and sorry that, you know, I never got a chance to meet him a course or our listeners, but it's an incredible accomplishment the companies that he built and I love the legacy that he left behind in you as a as a founder and Seeo and entrepreneur. Mike. If folks want to get in touch with you, maybe their salespeoople, they want to learn more about tighten house, maybe they want to work for...

...you, maybe they want to just pick your brain. What's the best way to get in touch with you? Yeah, they can. They can call me. They can call me directly, they can email me. My email is m leavy ll evey at titanhousecom. They can find me on Linkedin and connect with me on Linkedin. I have conversations with reps every day who are coming into our platform that are looking for great opportunities and and I always, always take time to talk to reps if I can help. You know a rep land a great job. What's cooler than that? So yeah, contact me directly, email M Levi at tighten housecom or or hit me up on Linkedin. Happy to talk to anyone. Sounds Great, Mike, will talk to you on Friday for Friday fundamentals. But thanks so much for being a guest on the salesacer podcast. Really appreciate you having me. Everyone, Sam Jacobs, Sam's corner. Great Conversation with Mike Leeve. Really enjoy talking to him. Inspiring story, and I love that story about, you know, the the light bulb that went off when he had first joined big dough, now called iprio, and he said, what's the difference between me and all these other folks that are fifteen years my senior? And the answer is work, ethic and motivation. Now, I think sometimes, as I mentioned, and asking him, you know, it's hard to work hard at something that you hate doing. And so how do you find what you love that will give you the motivation and inspiration to really to work as hard as you can, or is that something that work ethic, that discipline, the ability to put down that drink and go to sleep so that you can wake up early and go for run and be in the office at seven am is does that come innately? Is that something that you can train or develop? Mike mentioned that it comes from the culture of the business. If you believe in the business, if you believe in the group of people that you're taking this journey with, then maybe you can summon something that wouldn't be possible in another context. I also think feedback and seeing results from your work is probably something that...

...inspires you, motivates you and helps you develop that work ethic and and that purpose in that drive. But I really liked it. The second thing just to point out is, you know how many people make bad hiring decisions based on relying on resume is not really developing a proper assessment for candidates and for candidates and as you as a salesperson, not developing a framework for how to think about evaluate not just the company but the potential manager, the leader will kind of management stuff. How do they have how do they treat their people? How do they work with their people what kind of one on ones wall you have. So all of that was was really useful insight and context from Mike. So I loved it. Now, if you're part of the if you're not a part of the salesacker community yet, you're missing out. Any sales professional can joint as a member to ask questions, get a mediated answers and share experiences with likeminded be tob sales pros. Jump in and start a discussion with more than tenzero sales professionals at sales hackercom. Of course we want to thank propose a FY most businesses measuring and optimizing every part of the sales process except the critical one. Remember that propose a FI proposals close at double the industry standard rate. So make sure your proposals are up to snuff by using propose a FI. Sign up for a free trial, a book, a demo. Propose a fight cooms forwards our salesacer. Of course, we always want to thank outreach. If you haven't given us five stars on the on the itunes store, please do so. If you have an applied or consider joining revenue collective, take a look at revenue collectivecom. If you're an associate earlier in your career. We've got an incredible suite of training programs to help up. Love you, in addition to the ability to help you get any question answered within seconds through the peer to peer learning framework that we've developed. If you want to follow up with me, email me Sam at Revenue Collectivecom or find me on Linkedin at Linkedincom. Slash the word in Sam F Jacobs. See you next time.

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