The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 7 months ago

Return to Work: Offering the Maximum Flexible Option

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode of the Sales Hacker Podcast, we have Gianna Scorsone, GM/Head of North America at Aircall, where she lives out her dream to scale the channel program and to empower diverse employees and leaders. Join us for a rich conversation about answering to your employees and hearing their need for flexible return-to-work options.

What You’ll Learn

  1. Servant leadership means listening to your people
  2. Culture changes with every person who joins the team
  3. How to provide compete return-to-work flexibility
  4. Revising policies to support mental health

Show Agenda and Timestamps

  1. About Gianna Scorsone & Aircall [2:00]
  2. Gianna’s origin story in sales [4:50]
  3. How Aircall tackles the return to work [11:15]
  4. Supporting mental health with flexible policies [16:40]
  5. Building a culture that drives business outcomes [20:30]
  6. Paying it forward [24:20]
  7. Sam’s Corner [27:30]

One, two, one, three, three, hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the SALESACER podcast. Today in the show we've got John as COURSERNA. She is the general manager and the head of North America for air call. Air Call is one of the fastest growing companies out there. They are a cloud based phone system. We use them here at pavilion and it's a great conversation about building culture, about returning to work and how to think about doing it, and air calls done it in a really thoughtful way, and also just on her background and why retail sales can be an excellent, incredible launching ground for sales leaders like John. So it's a good conversation. Before we get there we want to thank our sponsors. We've got three for the show. The first is outreach. Outreach, as we know, has been a long time sponsor the PODCASTS. They are excited to announce their new annual series, the unleash summit series. It's back this year. Scene is the rise of revenue. Innovators. Join the new cohort of leaders who put buyers at the center of their sale strategies to drive a fishing, predictable growth across the entire revenue cycle. Get more details and save your spot at summit, dot outreach, DOT ioh. We're also brought to you by pavilion. Pavilion is the key to getting more out of your career. Our private membership gives you access to thousands of like minded peers, dozens of courses in schools through Pavilion University and over Onezero work books, templates, scripts and playbooks to accelerate your development. Pavilion members get hired more quickly, are paid more and get promoted more rapidly than their peers. Unlocked the career of your dreams by applying today at Joint Pavilioncom and finally, Congo. As doing business becomes increasingly complex, it gets harder to do it well. Businesses often sacrifice agility and lose sight of the customer experience. Congo's expertise and comprehensive solution suite for commercial operations, transforming the documents and processes surrounding customer engagement, CEPQ and CLM help businesses meet customer needs while increasing agility to adapt to change. Check them out at CONGOCOM. Forward slash sales soccer. Now let's listen to my conversation with Jiana Scorson A. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the...

...sales hacker podcast. Today on the show we're excited to have JONA scorsone. Johnna is the general manager and head of North America at Air Call. She works to empower employees while overseeing departments that cover the customer journey spectrum, from Lee generation to partnerships and integrations. In less than a year than John has been at air call, she scaled the company's channel program built relationships with current and potential channel partners, made a number of key hires, including a VP of channel sales, and has grown the leadership team from within for a six female and people of Color Promotions, which is amazing. She's also sponsor of air calls Lgbtqi plus, Arg Queer call. Johnna, welcome to the show. Thanks so much, Sam. We're excited to have you. So the first thing we like to do is your what we call your baseball card, which is just a quick summary of you, but also the company. So My company, Pavilion, is a customer of air all. Many people are, but there are few folks out there that don't know who or what are called does so in your works. Tell us what is their call do? Air Call is a cell phone system, fully cloud based, specifically for the seacast space, meaning you know anyone who's really customer facing who would like to have insight cards and visibility and pass conversations and all of those great things to deliver great customer service utilizes and benefits from air call. Amazing. And how and so I think I read it, but how long have you been at the company? I have been at the company for one year and one week. Oh amazing. Congratulations on your one year anniversary. Thank you very much. It's been epic, sounds like it, if I'm not mistaken. Their calls sort of like on an IPO path. So so pretty exciting. So and your title is GM head of North America, but just give us you know, formally, what are your responsibilities? Just you know, so we understand the scope. I read a little bit about it, but would love to hear in your words. Yeah, absolutely. So it's really following the customer journey from acquisition all the way through, you know, keeping them happy. That means that it's the lead Gen and Divan Gen teams, your traditional...

Sdr Bedr's, and then your you know, more indirect routes, where we have the IDC team. That's the it distribution channel that traditionally called master agents. I'm also in charge of the partnerships team, which aligns with our core integration partners as well as direct channel. That's the you know, partners within the integration ecosystem, and then the as, so the closers, and then, of course, all the way through setting up our customers for success, the onboarding team and the customer success team, who are revenue driving as well, and so they are not only in charge of making sure that our customers have the best experience and that translates to attention, but also through expansion with crossel and up cell. Amazing. So let's let's learn a little bit about your background. How did you what's your origin story? How did you obviously the end of it. We want to know how you discovered are called. But what's your background? How did you get into sales and kind of revenue management and and where did you develop your expertise? Absolutely so let's start way, way back. My first sales role was when I was probably six years old. My brother, sister and I had a metal soldering kit. Now I know one probably shouldn't have that at the age of six, but it was the s in New York City. That was fine. And we used to we used to melt the safest thing you can use, super safe. Say I'm super safe. I never hurt myself. I'll tell you that we used to melt coins into little sculptures, Little Trinkets, and we hacked some space at the Second Avenue Street Fair that year and we tried to sell our trinkets and my brother and sister gave up after a few minutes probably, but I was determined to sell a piece. We probably overcharged for about five bucks a pop, and in the s let me tell you, that was big money. But I ended up selling one. I stuck with it. I really worked on this one. Engaged customer and I got her to throw it...

...down and I'll never forget that thrill. That was my first sale and I was absolutely hooked. My dream at that age was to be a hot dog lady vendor. That's on my linkedin. Feel free to read that story. But I always had, you know, my mind set on sales and building an empire, so to speak. Out of college I was a marketing major and I went into retail sales and to answer your question of you know really what taught me and prepared me to be where I am today, I have to say it was the fundamentals of working a flagship store on Fifth Avenue. I was the manager on duty when the doors were open and that meant that I it was express, okay, limited brand, Yep, sold clothing and they were quite big at that time and I loved it. I loved every minute of being on the floor, the energy, the buzz. It was really exciting to learn how to, you know, speak to every customer at once, because time doesn't permit, you know, speaking to every single person, but you had to do it in a way that felt really personalized and and so you lat learn the techniques of using your voice, using enthusiasm, understanding, how to, you know, upsel in a way that made it feel very personal, but at scale. And I'd say that, you know, that absolutely translates into, you know, leading an SDR or BEDR team. Right, how do you do cold calling? Personalized but at scale. You know, what was also fundamentally groundbreaking for me in terms of learning skill was all of my employees were college kids who weren't incentivized to sell. They weren't making commission, they were making an hourly, you know, minimum right wage, and I had to learn how to tap into their intrinsic motivation, how to communicate a common goal so that they could really understand the importance of...

...their contribution, the value they brought to the table to reach that common goal. And that, of course, is how you motivate a sales team. It goes beyond just the dollars, but really learning and growing and helping them understand the responsibility they have to the people around them as well, because having one top erformer doesn't get you the scale that you need. How did you transition from express through to into software sales or where there? I'm sure there might be additional steps in between. Yeah, there are a couple steps in between. Ultimately, I decided to take a year often and I grabbed a backpack and I traveled the world for a year and upon return, I just sent my resume out to every single person I knew and you know, my resume landed in the hands of a gentleman named Michael Curvin, who's a mentor till this day, and he was one of the Co founders of Blue Wolf. Blue Wolf was a saw sales force consulting firm, the premier partner that sales force ever had, and we also had an it staffing division within Blue Wolf as well. We did incredibly well, fast growth year over year and we really had two business lines within the one and we offshoot the IT staffing arm to name it Mondo and added digital marketing staff and to it as well, and we brought both of those companies to transaction and I stayed on through acquisition of Mondo for a few months and decided that I really like the start up and build up mood and so I left. Took a year off and I started consulting by started coaching and I thought it was, you know, time and I had the privilege to be able to do that at that point and I was set to have a little bit of a more relaxed life. And then I got a call from a recruiter about air call and here I am amazing. What's been the biggest surprise about this opportunity? The biggest surprise? You know, that's a fantastic question. You know, I did my due diligence and I did research are call and I loved, loved loved what...

I saw right managing sales teams before you know, this tool made so much sense. The biggest surprise for me, though, was, yes, it's a phone system. We're actually not just a SASS product, but we're also in the telecom space. So that learning curve was one that I didn't quite anticipate, and so yeah, I would say that was the shock. What are the complexities associated with being in the telecom space, just dealing with these archaic or or old legacy providers things like that? Yeah, sure, there's, you know, of course, the legacy providers, but there's also just the nuances of being in the telecom space, the compliance issues that go around with it that are very specific to the telecom space. I think that some of the channels that traditionally sell indirect channels at that telecom cells through our more used to do those legacy systems, and so there's a lot of education involved around a system like ours where for me, coming from the ASS space, it was like yeah, this isn't no brainer, and so that that was really interesting for me as well. And then really just learning kind of the history and the evolution of telecom amazing. Well, one of the things we wanted to talk about today was just it's in the headlines a lot and certainly a lot of people are talking about this concept of return to work. And what's that and and, like you know, are we going to be in the office? Are we going to work from home? Is there going to be a hybrid environment? And then how do you manage teams? How do you ensure that, as you navigate this complex hybrid environment, that people feel included, they feel productive, they understand what's happening in the company? So what's your what's your approach? Because I know that it's a and certainly I'm sure are call plays a role because you're a saw phone system, a cloudbased phone system, so you enable people that are remote teams to access, you know, one single platform so that they can talk to their customers. But how are you approaching, you know, the concept of returning to the office is are call returning to the office? How do what are the policies that you all are developing to make sure that the company feels cohesive even when you're...

...flung all the way around the world? Yeah, that's a great question, Sam and, and couldn't agree more that it's so relevant today and you know, I say this a lot and and you're right. You know, are call is there to support organizations grapple with this. You know, new era of workforce. You not only have to be flexible in terms of being able to be hybrid, but you have to be hybrid in office and fully remote all at the same time, because it's very rare for an organization to be solely one of those things and, as you mentioned, that's where are call can really support being all of those at once, and that's what we've experienced here with our own internal team. You know, one thing that I think that you miss that I'd like to bring up is not only, you know, how do you make people feel included and drive the productivity while you have some being remote, some being an office, but there's also how do you make people feel safe and how do you care for mental wellness all in the process, because things are changing so rapidly. Conditions are changing, statistics around covid are changing. It's something that needs to be top of mine all of the time. What was comfortable for someone yesterday may not be comfortable for them today, and so it's really asking those questions, it's checking in with people and it's you know, sending out frequent surveys to make sure that everyone continues to feel safe. Additionally, it's making sure people understand that they can change their mind right now. Now. In order to do that and be successful and continue the productivity that you mentioned, it's really important for people to have routine. So what we've done here at air call we have reopened our New York City office, so I'll speak for North America. We've required vaccines for the office and people don't wear masks here, though if they travel, people are frequently getting covid tests to make sure that you know, we're frequently re checking in despite vaccines, to make sure, you know, breakthrough cases don't spill over. We found that this has been really successful for us, for...

...people to be very comfortable here, and it's amazing. Today the floor is packed, the energy is buzzing and you could absolutely see people thriving. Now. That said, we've decided to be a hybrid model, so people have the option of working three days a week in office two days a week from home. And the reason why we've done that and had a set schedule. We're all in the office on Monday's, Thursdays and Fridays, is because we want to breed that collaboration that being in office provides. Additionally, it also talks about that routine that I mentioned right it's knowing your exact schedule so that on Tuesdays and Wednesday's you're mentally prepared and you know your set up for success because you know that you're going to be at home. This avoids the situations where, like, I'm running a little bit later, oh I'm press news a couple more times, maybe I'll just stay at home. That ambiguity can be counter productive and it can be hard for others to know your schedule as well. So I think that that's how we've really been able to tackle this hybrid model here in the New York City office. Now, in terms of remote, we make sure that you know everything we offer to in house folk. Remote folk also get as well. We also made sure that everyone feels comfortable to be fully remote if they want to. And lastly, and this is such a great tip, when doing zoom meetings and you have half, you know, the zoom participants, let's say, or the meeting participants in the office, and the half our remote, we have everyone open their computer and join zoom so that everyone has a thumbnail picture to make sure that it's not just one image with these tiny heads that you can't really see and you can't really hear, and that levels the playing field for those that are out of office as well. I love that. When you talked about well, first question for you. So what about folks that, because you know these requirements and sort of the evolution of the science or even learning new things about the vaccines, you know by the day whether there ap proof for young people what some of the side effects are. So let's say you have some folks that say, you know what, I don't want to be vaccinated. How...

...is it all approaching now? Oh, yeah, we have. We have a lot of great employees who have decided that the vaccines not for them and that's not for me to decide. They have their fully remote option and they are fully remote. You know, we're doing an off site next week that's in person. We're also going to get those same training facilitators to do a remote version so that people don't miss out because, as you mentioned, we need to make sure that we're being inclusive and allow people to feel very comfortable with their personal choice. Yeah, it's fair. It's difficult. It is difficult, so tricky, so tricky, it's I don't think there's a straightforward, simple answer, as much as I want there to be. I know, I know you mentioned mental health. You know what are. How are you approaching are you modifying your sickly policies or your vacation policies for people that are that are discussing or having mental health issues, or is it just being more mindful and checking in with people? How are you approaching that? It's both both of those things. You know, we did some management training. HR did a phenomenal job of, you know, getting our managers together and really putting emphasis around this, teaching and guiding them how to check in with their employees at type of questions ask, you know, the behaviors or the body language to look out for. And then it's really encouraging people when you see them, you know, sick because of fatigue or or when you feel that they're a little bit drained or not doing, you know, the best that they can because of what they're experiencing externally, we encourage them to take some time off. I did this actually with one of my directors. I noticed that she, which is wearing fin and and I forced her to take a week off. I forced myself to take a week off last week as well, and I look. You know, it gets the best of all of us right now, and so it's important that we lead by example as well. What we've also done is hr is, you know, really tracking, because we have an open vacation policy. What that sometimes turns into is people don't take vacation or fuel, you know, this pressure not to, and I couldn't disagree with that more. I'm a huge advocate of making sure...

...that people take the time because of mental wellness, because of that release that everyone needs, and so we do track how much time people take vacation, not because we don't want them to take it, but to make sure that they are taking it. What is your perspective? I'm just, you know, genuinely curious on do you give there are times of the year, for example, if your salesperson and you're on a quarterly quota. I don't know if the sales people at our caller on monthly or quarterly, but let's say you haven't made a sale or your you're tracking to below quota and you want to take a vacation. The last two weeks of the quarter when it and it be comes clear that you're going to miss the number. That's sort of one scenario and then the other scenario might be, you know, just like hey, October's a super busy time. Do you give guidance? Do you feel or does the organization feel? But I'm curious about you personally. Do you feel selfconscious providing any kind of pushback or feedback at all when somebody says, Hey, I want to take a week off and you know you have their dashboard up in front, let's say when Tom Yeah, I would say what I'm at my best, I don't, and what I'm out yours, I do. You know, I think that there are two different scenarios here right that with the first scenario that you gave of you know, they're not hitting quota. They want to take, you know, the rest of the month off. What I would probably do is, you know, guide their leader to have the conversation of, you know, do you want success? What is success mean to you? You know, how do you feel this will translate to your overall success here and building your career, because I think that's more of a choice of is he's taking vacation going to help you or is it going to hurt you? Right, and that's very personal and probably very scenario based, because in one stance it actually might really help someone. Maybe they were feeling fatigued and burnt out and that's why they weren't performing well and and this will actually allow them to come back, you know, guns a blazing and a crush quote of the next month, right. Or you know, maybe they're just a bottom performer and don't care, and then that's really a story of whether or not you know they should be on the team...

...or not. The second scenario that you mentioned was, you know, a peak season or or two weeks before the courter ends. Yes, I do give guidance around that. I think. You know, on top of not just you know peak time or you know shortened months like December, I think there's also making sure that we have enough coverage. So it's looking to see how many other people are on vacation at that same time. Distribution is really important as well. Makes Perfect sense to me. You know, the we've got a little bit of time left and I just do want to touch on because it's it's I know that you have a lot of great ideas and opinions. When you think about building a great team and you think about creating great culture, which I know is really important to you, give us some some lessons or tips or strategies or your philosophy on how does somebody go about building a great team and ensuring that there's a fantastic culture that is positive, enthusiastic, passion at that drives towards the business outcomes, to business needs? What's your what are your what are your lessons? Oh Man, I could talk about this all day long. Okay, I think it starts first with hiring. You've got a higher great people, Super Important, you know, even if you think they might be too senior in a startup environment, you're going to need them very soon. So higher great people who have intrinsic motivation, who are team players. And so what I say in every single interview, Sam and I hope I concurse here, but I tell every single person I interview I have a no ego and no asshole policy on my team. I just won't stand for it. It, you know, is distracting and it does not breed hypergrowth because they're only in it for themselves and that is actually quite stunting to the business. And so, while you know, we love top performers, while we love overachievers, if they have an ego or if they're an Asshole, I don't want them because they're going to hurt everyone around them and they're going to hurt the culture. I think that it's also really important to think about process and culture right. How do you build both? And it's really about empowering your team to do so. And if you really...

...think about, you know, your overall population within the organization, you really want to think about how much diversity you have and how many levels you have. Building the process and building the culture, that's where you're going to get the best amount of value. And so, you know, I think from a leadership perspective, what I'm responsible for is making sure that we uphold our company values. What the people should be really driving is the culture and it's understanding that culture is iterative. It represents the population that you have at the time and it should always evolve as a result of it. And leadership is there to really make sure, as I mentioned, the values stay intact. And so part of the values and part of my philosophy is making sure that I'm a and I know this is really Cliche, but I'm a people firstly leader number second, because how I treat my employees, how I treat our team, that's how they'll treat the customers right and so it's really important to understand and recognize that, because that's how we're going to yield the most growth together. And so it's really understanding that my role as a leader is not to report into the CEO, not to report into, you know, the board. I tell my CEO this all the time. You're not my boss. My team is my boss. My role is to help them learn and grow and show them how they contribute and value what they bring to the table so that they want to continue to do that and do it more efficiently, more effectively and folding in those great hires that I spoke of to do the same. Each class should be better and better than the next and will all grow together that way. That's how you build a really strong culture. And so you know, when I think about what I'm graded on right, what my metrics should be? Of course, yes, revenue right. That that's ultimately the make or break for me. That's from the board perspective, the...

CEO Perspective, but what I grade myself on is how many internal promotions have I facilitated? What is our retention look like? What's our engagement rate like? That's how you build culture. Those are fantastic ideas and fantastic insights. We're almost at the end of our time together and one of the things that we like to do is sort of pay it forward. Where we hear about people, ideas, books, whoever your key influences are, or key ideas, wherever you think that we should look next? If we're trying to follow the bread crumb trail of John O scor Sorney, which how should we do that? Will you say my name? It's say it's so well practiced. So what comes to mind? You know, who do you think we should know about? What great boss is, great mentors, great books? You know, what do you think we should know? You know, that's such a beautiful question and I wish I could quite honestly gave it more thought. You know, quick quick thing about me, as I actually have learning disability and so sometimes, being on the spot, I'm not at my best and I often forget the books that I read, which is really strange and really crazy. But I've learned techniques around it. But anyhow, so, with that in behind and thinking on my feet here, you know, I would say actually Eric Beveridge, who is the other co founder of Blue Wolf. He's now an EVP over it sales force. You know, he's got a great, you know, customer obsessed podcast as well. I really learn from him how to really focus it on vision, how to disseminate vision, to motivate a team and he built a sales force practice like I've never seen before. It was groundbreaking and really put sales force consulting on the map. And and he, you know, continued to innovate and empower the leaders around him to really kind of create the mold of what a consulting firm should look like in the agile world. And now he's very much focused around how Blue Wolf...

...was successful through this concept of customer obsession that, you know, we have Blue Wolf adopted very, very early on. And I remember Blue Wolf and you're right that it was one of the early and great sales for stilly. I mean it's probably much broader than that, much broader than now. Yeah, that's right. That's what another IBM. Yes, I remember always, you know, when we needed help on sales for us. We blew wolf was the first name that we thought of. So Nice. You probably work with someone colleagues. That's awesome. Yeah, John, if folks are listening and they want to reach out, maybe they want to connect, maybe they're inspired by what you said and want to work for air call. What's the best way to get in touch with you? I love that. Please reach out on Linkedin. I I check it often and we are absolutely hiring for some amazing, amazing rolls across the board, marketing, sales partnerships and we would love to have really strong and great talent. We're growing at rapid speed. Thank you for not saying exponentially use that phrases aren't quite first exponents, but fantastic and and thank you so much for being our guest on the show this week and we're going to talk to you on Friday for Friday fundamentals. Looking forward to it, Sam. Thanks so much. Thank you. Hey, everybody, Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the sales soccer podcast and to SAM's corner. What a great conversation with Jonas Cossornay. I think, you know, a lot of it stood out, but one of the important things is just the emphasis in the focus on you know, she said something which is actually quite controversial and you know Patrick Lencioni, who wrote the five dysfunctions of a team, might disagree, but she said that her first team, her boss, is the people that she works for, that work for her, you know, her her teammates, but really the people that report to her. They are her boss more than the CEO. Patrick Lenconi would say, you know, your first allegiance should be to the people, your peers at...

...the same reporting level. But Janna disagrees and says, you know what, to be a true servant later she needs to work for the people that work for her, and that means listening to them, figuring out what they need, what they want and making modifications and changing. The other things she said which was really interesting, was that, you know, culture is is the collected actions and beliefs of the people that work for you today. It is not what it used to be yesterday or ten days ago or a year ago or five years ago. It's always evolving and changing based on the New People, on the people that work with you at that moment, which which is challenging actually, because you're constantly finding a new dynamic and a particularly new dynamic, given everything that's happening around return to work. An air call. Has Been Really thoughtful about how they've done it. So, as she mentioned, just if you're taking notes and want to think about a way that you might return to the office, first, complete flexibility. Right. They surveyed the team first and they said what do you want? The team said, well, we want to make sure that we don't have to wear masks if we're vaccinated, we want to make sure that other people in the office are also vaccinated and Hey, if I'm not vaccinated, I want to make sure that I still have an option. And so they created this structure where they're in the office Monday's, Thursdays and Fridays and they are not. So instead of everybody getting to pick and shoes which day they come to the office, as they listen, if you're going to come to the office, you're going to come on these three days, Monday, Thursday and Friday, probably say they can kick off and in the week together as a team, and the Tuesdays and Wednesdays, if you want to work from home, you can do it. Then if you're not vaccinated and you don't want to come into work, that's your right and you can work completely remotely and as a consequence of that, when we have meetings, everybody's going to dial into zoom, even if we're in person. I will assume that they mute themselves and do some things so that there's not, you know, all that feedback, which can be horrible to listen to. But the point is that you're there are strategies for inclusivity, strategies to make sure that people feel included, even if they choose not to get a vaccine, or if they do get a vaccine and they want to feel safe, because you want to go into work and know that if you're sitting next to somebody else and everybody's breathing loudly as you're on the phone, that you know the risk of a breakthrough infection through the vaccine is lower. So it's a new world that we live in and everybody's tackling it...

...differently, but are call has been pretty creative and resourceful, I think, and it's it's about it's about being flexible. It's about saying what are the things that we can do to make people that are not here feel included in the people that are here. Phil also okay, and how do we build a workforce in a work environment for the modern day that sort of incorporates everything we've learned from covid at the same time takes us forward in a new direction. And I don't think there's one easy answer, but I think I think a lot of companies are challenging are tackling this challenge with innovation, and that's one of the things that are calls doing so great conversation. Thanks, Jonnifer. Coming on. If you are not part of the Sales Haacker community yet, you're missing out. Any sales professional can join, jump in and start a discussion with more than seventeenzero professionals at salesaccercom. Of course, we also want to thank our sponsors. Outreach, this year's only summit series is back and the rise of the revenue innovators is the theme. So go to summit DOT outreach dot ioted to learn more. You haven't taken a class through Pavilion University, you are missing out. Pavilion members get hired more quickly, promoted more quickly and up train and up upscale their skills more effectively. So take a look at join Pavilioncom so that you can take your career to the next level. And finally, Conga. Conga helps businesses meet customer needs while increasing agility to adapt to change. Check them out at Conga DOTCOM. Forward salesacer. If you want to reach out to me, you can linkedincom forward slash the word in forward, Sam f Jacobs. Otherwise you can email me, Sam at joint PAVILIONCOM. Talk to you next time.

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