The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 6 months ago

Revenue Innovators: Insight Selling: Help Your Buyers Make the Right Decision

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

NOTE: This is a special episode from our sister podcast, Revenue Innovators. For more, you can subscribe to the show here or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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When everyone talks about customer centricity making it easy to buy, what we've learned over the past year is some of that translates to making it easier to sell.

That’s verbatim from Hang Black, VP of Global Revenue Enablement at Juniper Networks. We had the privilege of learning from her about how the intersection between operations and enablement affects both buyers and sellers.

In this episode, we also discussed:

  • 44% of Millenials don’t want to interact with sellers at all
  • Social selling and customer-centricity
  • Why ambiverts make great sales professionals
  • What’s most desirable in automation tools
  • How the remote environment promotes diversity and inclusion

Welcome to the revenue innovators, thepodcast powered by outreach. Will we skip the usual podcast guests? It goesstraight to the source of true revenue innovation. Interview Mad Scientists, revenue distructors fromall kinds of surprising industries. That's right. But beyond something in common. These are leader looking to the future and not the past their books,who are breaking glass in their go to market organizations and not just getting throughthe day. We're your hosts. I'm Mary Shay, Global Innovation Evangelist thatoutreach and I'm very small hand. Senior Vice President. Bring me excellent inoperation also at outreach. We see here every other week and we promised tokeep it spicy for you. Let's jump in. Welcome back everyone to arevenue innovators podcast with Harrish Mohan and Mary Shay. We're so excited today towelcome hang black to the PODCAST. So welcome hang. It's great to haveyou. Great to see you again in thanks for having me here. Yeah, it's a pleasure. I've been following hanks career for a several years nowand she if someone that I admire tremendously out in the world and for allthe work that she's doing. So Hey, for those of you who don't knowher, is the VP global revenue enablement at junifer networks. And Hey, do you want to tell us a little bit or tell the audio?It's a little bit about your role and what you do day today? Sure. So, as you mentioned, I've got a global remit. Have crosseda very complex portfolio across many geos. So we've got sales teams, services, partners, a Se's, anybody that touches revenue in a customer facing role, and we've got multiple segments service INROVIDER cloud enterprise. So very pleased tosay we serve a very complex portfolio but in a very targeted manner so thateach person is treated very uniquely for their specific needs. Fabulous. So justa minor, not very complex role. It sounds like, yes, smallrole, but I love it. And how long have you been in therole? Hang, I've been in the role for two and a half yearsand, as with many enablement professionals and roles, at that start off Iwas a mighty team of one person and you can imagine what the work lookslike when you're servicing four thousand people, two thousand in sales twozero services andacross all the various personas where one size doesn't fit all. Got It well. I know that you have followed much of my writing as I followed yourcareer over the years, and I don't know if you remember, but alwaysthree or four years ago I wrote a report that was kind of provocative and, I hope, somewhat seminal, and it was called the future of salesenablement is the sea suite, and in that report I just had this visionthat the role of enableman was going to become so important that either there wouldbe a sea in front of that this...

...a title, or that person wouldreport right into the sea suite. What's interesting to me about your role nowis we're not talking about sales enablement, we're talking about revenue enablement. Sois that just a rebranding of the sales enablement role, or how do yousee it, you know, at your company, and how's it different froma more traditional sales enablement roll? Well, let's look at sales enablement, thehistory of sales enablement, what I would call sales enablement. One DOTTOwas simply technical product training. It reported either into HR or sales engineering.As it got bigger. It started rolling up into marketing, where we're talkingnow more about messaging. It's as well right, and eventually it rolled intosales ups because it was became more of the day to day. What I'vebeen seeing now is that it will typically report into the crow or into somepart of a sea suite and in some companies even to the CEO. Nowmy hope is one day there's a large enough roll where that roll, theenable to roll, gets the sea in front of it as as well.But the good news is when I began with sales enablement, we move fromtechnical product training to delivery of content, creation and delivery. Now we're allabout content curation, very pin pointed, strategic delivery of content curated and aprocesses and behaviors specific to the persona, and I keep things this bit tothe persona because, as you know, Mary, buying has become very complex, which means selling has become very complex. We have so many different roles withinservices ourselves. We have there's about twenty different roles and we're not wecan't give everyone the same content because if you can imagine, if we cansave two minutes per seller, per week or per revenue facing person. Howmany hours does that add up to and how much? How many millions isthat ad up to per year? And Hang, you know it, we'retalking a little about it. The the enablement profession is become a lot morestrategic in to your point, covers a bigger save or service area. Thatwhat drove that? Right? What change the marketplace or what change our barseller environment? where, in your perspective, enablement went from a nice to haveto a critical Ab in order scale productivity? Absolutely well, I thinkif we believe that the buyers have gotten more savvy, does it then notfollow that in order to keep up, the sellers have to become more savvy? So it's not just relationship selling anymore. It's not just about dinner and agame of golf. Right, if you look at a lot of thedata out there, many buyers do not want to interact with sellers at all, especially millennials. Forty four percent of millennials. Now, I would actually, and I'd have these conversations with my analyst friends, I would actually saythat not only the buying committee has expanded, but this selling committee has expanded.I might actually even be provocative to...

...say it's not that they don't.They don't want to interact with their sellers. They want to interact with them asynchronousLee and meet them where they're living. So what do I mean by that? In two thousand and eight, with the real estate crush, wesaw this, this move towards d risking when you buy. So when weD risk the buyer committee expands to five point four and then over time tosix point two, to six point eight, to eight point four, to elevenpoint two and eleven point seven. I think it's going to flat outat around twelve, because otherwise you'll get a still made the decisionmaking. Butthat also means if you look at the reverse of it, which I don'tthink people have considered yet, is the selling committee has actually grown quite abit too. We just don't know it when vendors are looking at me andI get about two hundred emails a week and I tell them don't email me, don't call me, don't leave me a voicemail, and they still do. But in those interactions it's not that I don't want to interact with them. I want to do my own research and then I want to be ableto react to them when I'm ready. So I expect them to be engagingwith me on Linkedin. So we called it social selling. We've called itdigital selling, but what it's really doing is meeting our customers where they are. So if we wonder why enablement has gotten so complex, it's because there'ssellers. We have to prep them not just to know about how to makeyour customer to lunch or just knowing about the individual product. It's actually aboutinsight selling. It's actually about if I go if I have an allergy,do I go to this store and buy Xanex, allegre or Clareton? Everysingle seller is going to tell me I can solve your allergy problem and they'reall telling the truth right. But what if I have one seller who tellsme, well, based on your medical history, because I've told you,based on your medical history, you're also suffering from these other sithness and you'reprobably taking this other medication which will contradict with these other side effects. Therefor my medications best for you. We have to make the customer feel likethey're comfortable making the right decision, because we are insight selling a synchronous lie, and they will the customer will contact you when they're ready because you've doneyour homework. Yeah, that's so wonderful to hear and I think, beingon the other side, being an industry now, just a few months yousee how many coal calls you get and how many called outreach you get,and I actually take calls if the outreach is personalized, tailored and makes sensefor Myer of interest, because I want to constantly learn, as I'm sureyou do as well. And of course we shut down things that don't,that don't have that level of personalization and insights. It's interesting. You mentionedGardner and Forester and I'm an avid reader of bose now as well, andI was reading a recent report from Gardner that said, you know, bytwo thousand and twenty five, six percent of sellers will be focused on insightsdriven selling, and so that's quite a...

...sales model shift from where we aretoday to where we need to be. How are you and your organization preparingyour cellars for this type of environment? Well, first of all, wewere already trying to digitize as much as possibly before and if you look atScott Galloway's work, the pandemic has not necessarily been a change agent. It'sbeen a change accelerator. So there were things we were already working on,especially around the tool stack and automation and digital and social selling, but nowit's just, quite frankly, accelerated. So we have brought in we havereally, really fine tuned our sales caidence tool. Some people use outreach,some people use sales loft, and then we're also bringing on call intelligence.will be turning that up but really fine tuning it, not to just howdo we automate, but how do we automate for the new world, notjust taking marketing messaging but, like you said, Mary, how do youuse the sales tools to hyper personalize as well drive maybe less activity but moreeffective activity. So in our organization we have we have separated out sales enablemensales operations. We both report directly to the zero. So what I wouldsay is, the way we look at it, operations is about sales efficiencyand enablement is around sales efficacy. Right. So one is about are we doingthe right activities and on my side is are we doing the right activitiesright? So I own a certain set of tools that touches messaging and salescadence and it walks right up to the crm and where the CMM takes overand looks at leaflow, that moves over to sales ops and marketing ops.So we're really now looking at what other tools can we add to the stackthat will help extract the mundane out of our seller's time, but also extractany interaction that our customers don't want. What is it that they can thatthey can solve easily either self service through chat bought through message? They don'twant to touch a human. When they're ready to touch a human, weare ready to be there to engage. So it's taking them undate out ofboth. When everyone talks about customer centricity making it easy to buy, whatwe've learned over the past year is some of that translates to make it iteasier to sell and hang. I appreciate that. If it pickness the backhere, right, and we were talking about the evolution of sales enable man, but that also means the evolution of this seller and the seller profile,right. I mean they're talking about seller who can be died, consulted,a have diagn you know, diagnosed, or problem. How the layering messagingwork with your astern criticising understand all of these sales technologies. How you partneron that sales profile right, because you need attracted different kind of seller.You need a tag attract. But you know the profile changes from a backin my day we took everyone first big dinners and Martinis and we got dealsdone to people understand how to consume all...

...this information and signaling and consume thename of round it and provide or provocative buying, buying engagement. How doyou provide feedback into that profile loop and help wine tune that for the company? We'll tell you what. In previous companies we set up a very gatedinterview process and the last gate of the interview is a panel interview, typicallywith the hiring manager their counterpart. If so, if you're in sales,then the see leader at the if it's an see leader, if you're hiredfor an see then then the see leader and as well as the field salesmanager. Right, and there's also an enablement persona in there, and weplay different roles. So one day we may walk in and say, okay, married today you're going to play the CMO Harrish, you're going to playthe CTO and I'm going to play the CEO and we ask a certain setof questions. So here's the thing. I actually don't tell them what toprepare for. I would tell them you're going to pitch to us, you'regoing to pitch to see suite. What I'm looking for how are they engagingeach of us? Are they engaging the individual roles, not just to theperson that they're selling to or they're trying to get their job from? AndI'm looking for what insights they can share with me. So at the endof it we will often, you know, it's very true. You know willoften say your typical sales guy. You know you're saying too much,you talk to you fast, you say too much, you're not listening tothe customer, you're not addressing every single customer. But it's that piece iscoachable. So what do we look for? We look for and the only guidanceI give them is you have twenty minutes. You're talking to these threepeople, but you're selling to a five thousand person global company. I don'tgive them guidance around. Is it a white board? Is it a presentation? I don't give what. Are you selling me? Juniper? Are youselling me CISCO? You're selling me soap. I don't give them any guidance,but what I'm looking for is their sales discipline. How much are theypoking around questions, around a salesman methodology? I'm a fan of medic but anysales methodology. Are they asking the right discovery questions and finding the datasets to help the customer makes that make sense of it? So we're lookingfor not necessarily extroverts but ambiverts so that they're they've got the listening skills aswell and we're looking for people who can make sense of data and not justbuild a rapport in presence. I love amberver. I love sales discipline evenmore. It hanging for you know what, once you want to buying that talentthat dine there in the Rock. The the biggest responsibilities within your orgone on boarding, and there's so much emphasis but on boarding right now,because that's unlocking for activity, time to Ram it all. Attainment, multiplierpractivity, multiply whatever you can create. From the efficacy standpoint there is hugehow do you process on boarding and what the Pandemic House that changed, andhow are you leaning into remote on boarding and how's your hum adapt and whatare you seeing out about. Well, again, I'm very proud of myteam. We were able to pivot again within three weeks. We had yes, and it was literally we had just...

...delivered, thank goodness, we hadjust delivered our last one. We run what and on boarding program for aboutforty people, twenty two, forty people every month. weeously. Our entireseasuite is engaged because that's how important it is to them. And when wewere in person it was three eight hours days. Now it's for four ourdays and our sea suite come in twenty minutes at a time and it's it'sthe beginning of the process. Is less about again, technical product training isabout how do you navigate the company? Every single one of our leaders,we asked that them for four slides. What has been your career journey?Because it gives the the new hire an impression of how does that leader thinkabout their job role? Then we ask them for their leadership mantra. Thenwe last them for their ORG structure and how they've built out their org structure. With those four pieces of information, by the time we get to midweek, the sellers have a really good understanding of how do I operate in thisnetwork? In this company. Now we can enablement. We have three pillarsthat we've that we have equal emphasis on, on boarding being one of them,but ongoing as well. So with on boarding, as you know,everyone wants to decrease ramp time. So what we try to do is notonly shorten the curve but flatten it as well. But it's really, reallyimportant, and I really want to emphasize the people that once you've on boardedsomeone, it's equally important to continuously nurtured on with ongoing because if you losesomeone, someone in their second year, as you know, Mary, bringsin one and a half to two XS the bookings. If you bring itbeyond twenty three months, they bring in three to five XA first year.So if you lose a ten your person and bringing a new person you arereplacing, you are, you know, bridging a gap of not months butyears. So it's really important for us to measure attrition as part of thequality of our enablement program and hey is is you can eat, you managea pivot, all your on boarding in three days, which is got tobe some sort of world record. And it don't. We ex three ways. Got To be a world record to role of technology play there? Whereyou all ready preparing for mode on boarding? What what parts of stack did youhave to change or rethink or some hands on a how you manage todo it and and what parts of that process you're going to keep as wecome out of post pandemic and where you going to go back in person?Yeah, so I believe that everything is going to normalize a little bit.When I say normalize, I don't mean the old normal, I don't.I don't mean what people deemed to be the new normal, but I alwayscall it the next normal. Right, so the next normal is always evolvingover time. I do believe. I don't know if you watch the voiceduring the pandemic. Personally, they firstly...

...kill the show and then when theybrought it back, you had people distance and then you had basically a tonof monitors replace the human beings. Right, and as more people came back,guess what? A lot of those monitors didn't go away. So whatI'm trying to plan for in our internal engagements, but also our external engagements, whether it's with the field, whether it's with, you know, acustomer EBC, I believe that we're going to begin living in what I'm callinga hyper hybrid world where, instead of one individual screen representing one person,you may have that one screen representing Boston, you may have another screen representing Chicago. So people may still be traveling, but they're traveling shorter distances in orderto be very aware and respectful of carbon footprint, of time spent withfamily, but also to still have that human engagement. So I'm trying,I'm right now working with a lot of our partner companies, are customers,to see, you know, what does that look like? What is that? How do we shape that together? Technologies where we've got camera tracking ina single room with with many people in it, but maybe we have fouror five rooms. Oh, instead of everyone coming to headquarters in Sunnyvale,you've got some people in an office in London, some people in offices,and the beauty of that is it further reaches into our urban cities, whichwill help us bringing more diversity of customer and more diversity of talent. Yeah, I love how you're thinking about this hyper hybrid world. Hang and I'vebeen thinking about it a lot as well, and also thinking about the Winston Churchillquote, which was, you know, never let a good crisis go towaste. And I don't want to make light of a very, verydifficult, challenging time globally for many of us in different ways, but simultaneouslywith those challenge is I've observed massive transformation and innovation, whether it's new salesmodels, whether it's new business models. And when you think about this hybridor hyper hybrid world that you're talking about, many of the things that we hadto do to survive during the pandemic we want to keep with us aswe go forward, and so I think in person events, I guess salesporcenow is announced to dream forces live, but I think, as we youknow, I think the in person events will proceed the one to one salesmeetings or the one to one many meetings. And one of the benefits from thehybrid approaches, instead of just one or two executives going, you couldhave the whole team go and digitally consume content at the time and choosing ofyour place right and then potentially you can interact a group, small group,with ten to twelve people that have very, very similar interest so I think we'llsee this hybrid world play out differently in industry events and and also inthe sales meeting, and I love the way you're describing it because I havea lot of sellers asking me when are we going back to normal, andI agree with you. I've been calling...

...it a different normal, but Ilike I think I like what you said the next normal better, which iswe're just moving forward and you you can go on site, but you're goingto be dealing with a distributed cell side, distributed by side team, right,so you may actually be talking in person, but you've got monitors withten or twelve other people who are remote. So I think that's super, superinteresting to see how this is all going to unfold. I've actually beenthinking that the on site sales meeting could actually become a skew. I knowthis is a controversial way of thinking about it, but something that the bysideteam might be willing to pay for and that you go on site as aseller at the time and choosing of the buyers selection process. I know it'sa little different because we've always thinking about sellers going out doing a certain numberof meetings and some of those being in person. And what do you thinkabout the concept of of the buying committee sort of driving the format. Thatis fascinating. I love that and I had not thought of that before,but interestingly enough I've already been doing that with partner enablement. So with partnerenablement we have a different tears right, so different tiers and commitment from thepartner side gives them access to levels of MDF, right. And so froma partner enable mint side it's kind of we talked about paper, gold,silver, platinum partners and then plastic partners. Right. Plastic is everybody use,can consume what's on demand. What I had built in several situations hasbeen the same with enablement. Right, if you are this tier of partner, you get everything on demand plus some hours of virtual if you are thistype of partner, you get some hours of in person. If you getthis of canned content, if you are this platinum level of partner, thenyou get very highly bespoke content to your liking in your space at your timeof convenience. So I love the idea of maybe we let the have thebuyer shape that process kind of like you would build ps and as. Right. Yeah, I would just kind of toy around with the idea and onit and I'm sort of taken with it as well. So we'll have tosee how it all unfold. No doubt I'm a bit future forward on that, but we'll see where it takes us. I wanted to just take a momentto circle back to the technology discussion, because that said Real Passion of mindamongst many other topics here today. Now I think you have sort ofa top tier sales tex stack, from what I know from our conversations andif you and some other technologies that you're looking to bring into the organization.One of the things I think that's out there is sort of a misconception isthat this technology, as it gets more and more sophisticated with more powerful automationand machine learning and AI, that it's...

...it's going to disintermediate the seller orit's just designed for that front of the cycle wrap who's working on high velocityand it doesn't allow for a lot of customization, and I think that sofar from the truth. How are you thinking about a top tier technology stackand the ability for tech to really support a more consultative enterprise type of engagement? So I'll ask back a question this way. Would you rather type ona typewriter and use white out, or even worse, if you recall thedays of the the eraser and wheel with the brush of the other end.Or would you rather Type Your Book Manuscript on a computer? Well, it'sthe second, right, and why is that? Because it makes it alot more efficient to edit it. Time saves me. I can save thedocument, I can go back, I can edit, I can delete,I can move blocks around. Is But the human is still involved in bothof those stories, right. So we don't want to use automation to replacethe human. So, if you look at it's just to make the humanmore smarter and more effective. Right. So again, if you look atsales off this, are we doing the right things? Are We? Arewe even looking at the right activities? Are we efficient with those activities?And on the aid and enabling side of the house, are we doing thosethings effectively? You still need the brain power of the salesperson. They justget to spend more time uplifting what they do. So, for instance,when I'm creating outreach sequences, I can touch a lot more customers without havingto remember where am I with each customer and as I go down those,you know, seventeen to twenty steps, I can personalize each of those steps. I don't have to personalize the framework of the email. I can takethat email, change a few keywords in there and now it's personalized. SoI just get to be a lot more efficient and effective with my customer.Yeah, I completely agree, and I think it's sometimes the effectiveness gets lostin the efficiency right, because some of these tools are incredibly efficient. Youcan't help but, you know, build amazing our alive cases. But ultimately, at the end of the day, what we do on the tax sideis help our customers create better experiences for their customers. So it's all,like you said, finding the right channel, finding the right message, getting theright time to connect with someone in a way that matters for them.So whatever you can do to keep getting the word out there, you know, please do they bill. Also the other side of that coin, hangingMary, and I'm cure. So in one way technology is a great providerof a great experience and efficiency. In the other way, every other newpiece of technology g that you add, you're creating one more layer of datafragmentation and one more stylo of data some cures. How do you bounce thatright? Because one we live in a world where I was like, thereis a commodity, is data Pro Liberation?...

Right. The problem is, yeah, there is, but there's not information for liberation because you almost havetoo much data. You don't know what to do with it. Are youdon't know which is a right source for leading or lagging. So, Hey, how do you bounce that right? So creating a perfect stack with bigfor purpose systems and then making sure that you're pulling the right data information outof there. That is so true. And I'm having this discussion with allmy vendors and with my analyst about the sales that has proliferated so crazily thateveryone's got like one very niche thing they're trying to solve and then they're alltrying to back into each other spaces, right, and if you talk toa cadence tool or you talk to a sales readiness platform or you talk toa sales asset management platform, they are all going to assist that you liveon their platform and get at there, the single pane of glass into theother platforms, right. So at this point I feel like that is definitelya hard problem to solve. So when we look at data automation and salesdigitalization. I do look at I am actually in a little bit of aholding pattern for the next twelve months because I do believe a lot of thesevendors are going to solidate. They have to. Yeah, they have towrite. Some of the cointelligence tools are reaching into forecasting, some of thereadiness tools are reaching into coaching. They're gonna have to collapse. So rightnow platforms are who knows what right. You're right. I completely agree,exactly, exactly. So I think the the automation, that the tool,automatition tools, where I'm going to see value is where they start predigesting informationfor me. So who's going to win? Do I go with keep everything onthe Crm, or do I let the cram do its thing and letit eat up forecasting and then I go with engagement or or call intelligence tokind of be the single pin of platform, single platform to look at my otherpieces of data? What's going to win for me is how much doeach of these tools once the ability to localize, meaning if there's anything todo with language, can you do it in local language as well? Howmany local languages? Japanese, Mandarin, Spanish, French, those are mustaps. Right, and then my second tier. If you don't have those, I'mnot even going to talk to you, because the world does not just livein English anymore. So I'm going to look for localization and I'm goingto look at how well does your data talk to other platforms to create thatsingle pane of glass to make sense of that data, for me, topredigest that data for me, instead of just spitting out your data, and, by the way, you can import other data. I want it toactually be smart enough to predigest what the other systems are taking in. Ilove that perspective. You're right, the internationalization component is table stakes now,right. We are not a English and...

TURC America centric world economy any when. We stopped being that a while ago. So love that perspective. By hangingas you think about the stack and the decisions you want to make inglobal ready enable it. How do you partner with global sales operations on thatright, because they have their own hey, I need information of both or thesesystems where opportunities and forecasting and pipeline and you have your knees like howdo you reconcile what is our stack between your yourself and the operations team.Yeah, so part of my history was there's about two years where I hadan identity crisis because I had been nearly a decade in engineering, nearly adecade in marketing and, at that time, five years in sales and I waskind of like searching for meaning in in the fact that I had neverheld a bag before. So how can I represent sales if I've never personallysold? So I became my own consultant in order to sell and know whatit was like to hold a bag, and part of that was selling myservices as anything. Sales Consulting, marking consulting. That means SALESOPS, marketingops, sales enablement, field marketing. When I was engaged for sales enablement, the very first thing I would do is look at I would call itlay the patient on the table. It doesn't matter if if I'm the thorasticsurgeon or whatever, I would lay the patient on the table, bringing allthe right doctors and say, okay, this needs to get ripped out,replace, this can be fixed, this just needs medication. This is mark'sjust fine. The reason I give that analogy is because I do have abackground in engineering, in marketing and in sales. I would look at themarketing ops, sales offs and Sales Tech Enablement, text act and to end. So when I did that at Juniper we've found a hundred and eighty fourtools between the three different organizations. And then I would go to the salesteams and I would I would do some truth telling. Right, what thesales ups think of their text bact? What is marketing offs think? Whata sales enablement thing? Then I would go to some of our top sellersand top about some of our top sales leaders, and I would say whatdo you think? Right, so you get to see the balance of thetwo. And then, by that way, it's not like, you know,hanging enablement is saying your baby, your baby's ugly, but mine isbeautiful. We're looking at where are the gaps that fall between so from therewe build a triumphvirt between the three organizations. If I am looking at doing this, how does it affect you? So before we implement anything, wetalk to the other organizations. Now there's always a decider, there's always theone decisionmaker, there's some one who influences, there someone who's informed and even ina specific tool, the governance may be different. So, even thoughI own my sales cadence tool, my my outreach tool, there are piecesof the decision where I let marketing opps lead the decision and I follow,even though I own the tool. Same...

...with SALESOP, same with marketing ops, right. So we kind of Pars out where do we touch each otherand we let each other lead the discussion in certain places. So it takesa very discipline and collaborative approach. That's yeah, and that's a lesson foreveryone in collaboration. There yeah, very discipline and also mature organization. It'sinteresting to see that, slowly but surely, I think two PSILOS are starting tobreak down between marketing, sales, revops and so on, and Ithink vops is going to be a big driver behind the softening of those ofthose silos. I wish we could talk with you for another two hours hangingwe can't to go. I know we both have a real passionate commitment todiversity, equity inclusion in the world and within the VB selling organization, andso would love to talk with you just for a few moments on this conceptof having a more hybrid workforce, more virtual interactions how do you think that'sgoing to impact our ability to get a more herogeneous salesports in place? It'sso great that you ask that question. The diversity inclusion is very, veryimportant to me because I believe the rules of the game are slightly different foreach of us and they're written by those with our same human experience. Sowhat going virtual has allowed is, if you look at any zoom screen rightnow, we all have the same real estate. We also have the sameability to raise our hand and speak and to see who's in Q, sothat you can't just even consciously or unconsciously, skip certain people. What that hasallowed us to do is, if you look at the studies right now, the more marginalize the community, the more they're feeling like they belong ina remote environment. Those communities also prefer to stay remote. I believe that, in an ideal world, what will happen is because we were able toflex these muscles of where we can reach into affordable communities, non traditional communities, we can hire a better time. There's a big war for talent comingon, and especially war for diverse talent, because companies and business are starting tosee we're only selling to a certain population and we're missing out on allthese other populations and who, to those populations, want to buy from?Diversity begets diversity, and not just physical diversity. Clearly I am a femaleof color, but there are other things of me that that are diverse.I am a single working mother and that carries with it with it some otheradversities. But when we are all different and unique week and we all hadthe same real estate, will all be more of the same. So whatthis is brought along is a lot more ability to be to have voice,to have access and to have more belonging, and I do think as people revertback to being more in person,...

...we will have built that extra diversityand an inclusion into the environment that hopefully we will be be able to bringback in the physical spaces as well well. I certainly hope so too, andI can't thank you enough for being with us today and being with ouraudience. It was such a wonderful and dynamic conversation and every time we speakI learned something new from you. So really, really wonderful to have youhere as a guest and thank you so much for joining us and thank youall for joining us today on Revenue Innovators podcast. We look forward to seeingyou and then very near future. Absolutely my pleasure. Thank you. Thankyou for listening to the Revenue Innovators podcast. If you love what we're doing here, please leave us a five star rating and a shining review. Ifyou're a revenue innovator yourself and you're not part of the sales tacer community yet, you're missing out. Go to sales tacercom to become a member, askquestions, get fast answers and your experiences with Twentyzero like winded professionals who're shakingthings up in their own organizations. Let's see you back on this podcast everyother week to learn from the world's most destructive revenue innovators.

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