The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 10 months ago

Revenue Innovators: Insight Selling: Help Your Buyers Make the Right Decision

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

NOTE: This is a special episode from our sister podcast, Revenue Innovators. For more, you can subscribe to the show here or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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When everyone talks about customer centricity making it easy to buy, what we've learned over the past year is some of that translates to making it easier to sell.

That’s verbatim from Hang Black, VP of Global Revenue Enablement at Juniper Networks. We had the privilege of learning from her about how the intersection between operations and enablement affects both buyers and sellers.

In this episode, we also discussed:

  • 44% of Millenials don’t want to interact with sellers at all
  • Social selling and customer-centricity
  • Why ambiverts make great sales professionals
  • What’s most desirable in automation tools
  • How the remote environment promotes diversity and inclusion

Welcome to the revenue innovators, the podcast powered by outreach. Will we skip the usual podcast guests? It goes straight to the source of true revenue innovation. Interview Mad Scientists, revenue distructors from all kinds of surprising industries. That's right. But beyond something in common. These are leader looking to the future and not the past their books, who are breaking glass in their go to market organizations and not just getting through the day. We're your hosts. I'm Mary Shay, Global Innovation Evangelist that outreach and I'm very small hand. Senior Vice President. Bring me excellent in operation also at outreach. We see here every other week and we promised to keep it spicy for you. Let's jump in. Welcome back everyone to a revenue innovators podcast with Harrish Mohan and Mary Shay. We're so excited today to welcome hang black to the PODCAST. So welcome hang. It's great to have you. Great to see you again in thanks for having me here. Yeah, it's a pleasure. I've been following hanks career for a several years now and she if someone that I admire tremendously out in the world and for all the work that she's doing. So Hey, for those of you who don't know her, is the VP global revenue enablement at junifer networks. And Hey, do you want to tell us a little bit or tell the audio? It's a little bit about your role and what you do day today? Sure. So, as you mentioned, I've got a global remit. Have crossed a very complex portfolio across many geos. So we've got sales teams, services, partners, a Se's, anybody that touches revenue in a customer facing role, and we've got multiple segments service INROVIDER cloud enterprise. So very pleased to say we serve a very complex portfolio but in a very targeted manner so that each person is treated very uniquely for their specific needs. Fabulous. So just a minor, not very complex role. It sounds like, yes, small role, but I love it. And how long have you been in the role? Hang, I've been in the role for two and a half years and, as with many enablement professionals and roles, at that start off I was a mighty team of one person and you can imagine what the work looks like when you're servicing four thousand people, two thousand in sales twozero services and across all the various personas where one size doesn't fit all. Got It well. I know that you have followed much of my writing as I followed your career over the years, and I don't know if you remember, but always three or four years ago I wrote a report that was kind of provocative and, I hope, somewhat seminal, and it was called the future of sales enablement is the sea suite, and in that report I just had this vision that the role of enableman was going to become so important that either there would be a sea in front of that this...

...a title, or that person would report right into the sea suite. What's interesting to me about your role now is we're not talking about sales enablement, we're talking about revenue enablement. So is that just a rebranding of the sales enablement role, or how do you see it, you know, at your company, and how's it different from a more traditional sales enablement roll? Well, let's look at sales enablement, the history of sales enablement, what I would call sales enablement. One DOTTO was simply technical product training. It reported either into HR or sales engineering. As it got bigger. It started rolling up into marketing, where we're talking now more about messaging. It's as well right, and eventually it rolled into sales ups because it was became more of the day to day. What I've been seeing now is that it will typically report into the crow or into some part of a sea suite and in some companies even to the CEO. Now my hope is one day there's a large enough roll where that roll, the enable to roll, gets the sea in front of it as as well. But the good news is when I began with sales enablement, we move from technical product training to delivery of content, creation and delivery. Now we're all about content curation, very pin pointed, strategic delivery of content curated and a processes and behaviors specific to the persona, and I keep things this bit to the persona because, as you know, Mary, buying has become very complex, which means selling has become very complex. We have so many different roles within services ourselves. We have there's about twenty different roles and we're not we can't give everyone the same content because if you can imagine, if we can save two minutes per seller, per week or per revenue facing person. How many hours does that add up to and how much? How many millions is that ad up to per year? And Hang, you know it, we're talking a little about it. The the enablement profession is become a lot more strategic in to your point, covers a bigger save or service area. That what drove that? Right? What change the marketplace or what change our bar seller environment? where, in your perspective, enablement went from a nice to have to a critical Ab in order scale productivity? Absolutely well, I think if we believe that the buyers have gotten more savvy, does it then not follow that in order to keep up, the sellers have to become more savvy? So it's not just relationship selling anymore. It's not just about dinner and a game of golf. Right, if you look at a lot of the data out there, many buyers do not want to interact with sellers at all, especially millennials. Forty four percent of millennials. Now, I would actually, and I'd have these conversations with my analyst friends, I would actually say that not only the buying committee has expanded, but this selling committee has expanded. I might actually even be provocative to...

...say it's not that they don't. They don't want to interact with their sellers. They want to interact with them asynchronous Lee and meet them where they're living. So what do I mean by that? In two thousand and eight, with the real estate crush, we saw this, this move towards d risking when you buy. So when we D risk the buyer committee expands to five point four and then over time to six point two, to six point eight, to eight point four, to eleven point two and eleven point seven. I think it's going to flat out at around twelve, because otherwise you'll get a still made the decisionmaking. But that also means if you look at the reverse of it, which I don't think people have considered yet, is the selling committee has actually grown quite a bit too. We just don't know it when vendors are looking at me and I get about two hundred emails a week and I tell them don't email me, don't call me, don't leave me a voicemail, and they still do. But in those interactions it's not that I don't want to interact with them. I want to do my own research and then I want to be able to react to them when I'm ready. So I expect them to be engaging with me on Linkedin. So we called it social selling. We've called it digital selling, but what it's really doing is meeting our customers where they are. So if we wonder why enablement has gotten so complex, it's because there's sellers. We have to prep them not just to know about how to make your customer to lunch or just knowing about the individual product. It's actually about insight selling. It's actually about if I go if I have an allergy, do I go to this store and buy Xanex, allegre or Clareton? Every single seller is going to tell me I can solve your allergy problem and they're all telling the truth right. But what if I have one seller who tells me, well, based on your medical history, because I've told you, based on your medical history, you're also suffering from these other sithness and you're probably taking this other medication which will contradict with these other side effects. There for my medications best for you. We have to make the customer feel like they're comfortable making the right decision, because we are insight selling a synchronous lie, and they will the customer will contact you when they're ready because you've done your homework. Yeah, that's so wonderful to hear and I think, being on the other side, being an industry now, just a few months you see how many coal calls you get and how many called outreach you get, and I actually take calls if the outreach is personalized, tailored and makes sense for Myer of interest, because I want to constantly learn, as I'm sure you do as well. And of course we shut down things that don't, that don't have that level of personalization and insights. It's interesting. You mentioned Gardner and Forester and I'm an avid reader of bose now as well, and I was reading a recent report from Gardner that said, you know, by two thousand and twenty five, six percent of sellers will be focused on insights driven selling, and so that's quite a...

...sales model shift from where we are today to where we need to be. How are you and your organization preparing your cellars for this type of environment? Well, first of all, we were already trying to digitize as much as possibly before and if you look at Scott Galloway's work, the pandemic has not necessarily been a change agent. It's been a change accelerator. So there were things we were already working on, especially around the tool stack and automation and digital and social selling, but now it's just, quite frankly, accelerated. So we have brought in we have really, really fine tuned our sales caidence tool. Some people use outreach, some people use sales loft, and then we're also bringing on call intelligence. will be turning that up but really fine tuning it, not to just how do we automate, but how do we automate for the new world, not just taking marketing messaging but, like you said, Mary, how do you use the sales tools to hyper personalize as well drive maybe less activity but more effective activity. So in our organization we have we have separated out sales enablemen sales operations. We both report directly to the zero. So what I would say is, the way we look at it, operations is about sales efficiency and enablement is around sales efficacy. Right. So one is about are we doing the right activities and on my side is are we doing the right activities right? So I own a certain set of tools that touches messaging and sales cadence and it walks right up to the crm and where the CMM takes over and looks at leaflow, that moves over to sales ops and marketing ops. So we're really now looking at what other tools can we add to the stack that will help extract the mundane out of our seller's time, but also extract any interaction that our customers don't want. What is it that they can that they can solve easily either self service through chat bought through message? They don't want to touch a human. When they're ready to touch a human, we are ready to be there to engage. So it's taking them undate out of both. When everyone talks about customer centricity making it easy to buy, what we've learned over the past year is some of that translates to make it it easier to sell and hang. I appreciate that. If it pickness the back here, right, and we were talking about the evolution of sales enable man, but that also means the evolution of this seller and the seller profile, right. I mean they're talking about seller who can be died, consulted, a have diagn you know, diagnosed, or problem. How the layering messaging work with your astern criticising understand all of these sales technologies. How you partner on that sales profile right, because you need attracted different kind of seller. You need a tag attract. But you know the profile changes from a back in my day we took everyone first big dinners and Martinis and we got deals done to people understand how to consume all...

...this information and signaling and consume the name of round it and provide or provocative buying, buying engagement. How do you provide feedback into that profile loop and help wine tune that for the company? We'll tell you what. In previous companies we set up a very gated interview process and the last gate of the interview is a panel interview, typically with the hiring manager their counterpart. If so, if you're in sales, then the see leader at the if it's an see leader, if you're hired for an see then then the see leader and as well as the field sales manager. Right, and there's also an enablement persona in there, and we play different roles. So one day we may walk in and say, okay, married today you're going to play the CMO Harrish, you're going to play the CTO and I'm going to play the CEO and we ask a certain set of questions. So here's the thing. I actually don't tell them what to prepare for. I would tell them you're going to pitch to us, you're going to pitch to see suite. What I'm looking for how are they engaging each of us? Are they engaging the individual roles, not just to the person that they're selling to or they're trying to get their job from? And I'm looking for what insights they can share with me. So at the end of it we will often, you know, it's very true. You know will often say your typical sales guy. You know you're saying too much, you talk to you fast, you say too much, you're not listening to the customer, you're not addressing every single customer. But it's that piece is coachable. So what do we look for? We look for and the only guidance I give them is you have twenty minutes. You're talking to these three people, but you're selling to a five thousand person global company. I don't give them guidance around. Is it a white board? Is it a presentation? I don't give what. Are you selling me? Juniper? Are you selling me CISCO? You're selling me soap. I don't give them any guidance, but what I'm looking for is their sales discipline. How much are they poking around questions, around a salesman methodology? I'm a fan of medic but any sales methodology. Are they asking the right discovery questions and finding the data sets to help the customer makes that make sense of it? So we're looking for not necessarily extroverts but ambiverts so that they're they've got the listening skills as well and we're looking for people who can make sense of data and not just build a rapport in presence. I love amberver. I love sales discipline even more. It hanging for you know what, once you want to buying that talent that dine there in the Rock. The the biggest responsibilities within your or gone on boarding, and there's so much emphasis but on boarding right now, because that's unlocking for activity, time to Ram it all. Attainment, multiplier practivity, multiply whatever you can create. From the efficacy standpoint there is huge how do you process on boarding and what the Pandemic House that changed, and how are you leaning into remote on boarding and how's your hum adapt and what are you seeing out about. Well, again, I'm very proud of my team. We were able to pivot again within three weeks. We had yes, and it was literally we had just...

...delivered, thank goodness, we had just delivered our last one. We run what and on boarding program for about forty people, twenty two, forty people every month. weeously. Our entire seasuite is engaged because that's how important it is to them. And when we were in person it was three eight hours days. Now it's for four our days and our sea suite come in twenty minutes at a time and it's it's the beginning of the process. Is less about again, technical product training is about how do you navigate the company? Every single one of our leaders, we asked that them for four slides. What has been your career journey? Because it gives the the new hire an impression of how does that leader think about their job role? Then we ask them for their leadership mantra. Then we last them for their ORG structure and how they've built out their org structure. With those four pieces of information, by the time we get to midweek, the sellers have a really good understanding of how do I operate in this network? In this company. Now we can enablement. We have three pillars that we've that we have equal emphasis on, on boarding being one of them, but ongoing as well. So with on boarding, as you know, everyone wants to decrease ramp time. So what we try to do is not only shorten the curve but flatten it as well. But it's really, really important, and I really want to emphasize the people that once you've on boarded someone, it's equally important to continuously nurtured on with ongoing because if you lose someone, someone in their second year, as you know, Mary, brings in one and a half to two XS the bookings. If you bring it beyond twenty three months, they bring in three to five XA first year. So if you lose a ten your person and bringing a new person you are replacing, you are, you know, bridging a gap of not months but years. So it's really important for us to measure attrition as part of the quality of our enablement program and hey is is you can eat, you manage a pivot, all your on boarding in three days, which is got to be some sort of world record. And it don't. We ex three ways. Got To be a world record to role of technology play there? Where you all ready preparing for mode on boarding? What what parts of stack did you have to change or rethink or some hands on a how you manage to do it and and what parts of that process you're going to keep as we come out of post pandemic and where you going to go back in person? Yeah, so I believe that everything is going to normalize a little bit. When I say normalize, I don't mean the old normal, I don't. I don't mean what people deemed to be the new normal, but I always call it the next normal. Right, so the next normal is always evolving over time. I do believe. I don't know if you watch the voice during the pandemic. Personally, they firstly...

...kill the show and then when they brought it back, you had people distance and then you had basically a ton of monitors replace the human beings. Right, and as more people came back, guess what? A lot of those monitors didn't go away. So what I'm trying to plan for in our internal engagements, but also our external engagements, whether it's with the field, whether it's with, you know, a customer EBC, I believe that we're going to begin living in what I'm calling a hyper hybrid world where, instead of one individual screen representing one person, you may have that one screen representing Boston, you may have another screen representing Chicago. So people may still be traveling, but they're traveling shorter distances in order to be very aware and respectful of carbon footprint, of time spent with family, but also to still have that human engagement. So I'm trying, I'm right now working with a lot of our partner companies, are customers, to see, you know, what does that look like? What is that? How do we shape that together? Technologies where we've got camera tracking in a single room with with many people in it, but maybe we have four or five rooms. Oh, instead of everyone coming to headquarters in Sunnyvale, you've got some people in an office in London, some people in offices, and the beauty of that is it further reaches into our urban cities, which will help us bringing more diversity of customer and more diversity of talent. Yeah, I love how you're thinking about this hyper hybrid world. Hang and I've been thinking about it a lot as well, and also thinking about the Winston Churchill quote, which was, you know, never let a good crisis go to waste. And I don't want to make light of a very, very difficult, challenging time globally for many of us in different ways, but simultaneously with those challenge is I've observed massive transformation and innovation, whether it's new sales models, whether it's new business models. And when you think about this hybrid or hyper hybrid world that you're talking about, many of the things that we had to do to survive during the pandemic we want to keep with us as we go forward, and so I think in person events, I guess salesporce now is announced to dream forces live, but I think, as we you know, I think the in person events will proceed the one to one sales meetings or the one to one many meetings. And one of the benefits from the hybrid approaches, instead of just one or two executives going, you could have the whole team go and digitally consume content at the time and choosing of your place right and then potentially you can interact a group, small group, with ten to twelve people that have very, very similar interest so I think we'll see this hybrid world play out differently in industry events and and also in the sales meeting, and I love the way you're describing it because I have a lot of sellers asking me when are we going back to normal, and I agree with you. I've been calling...

...it a different normal, but I like I think I like what you said the next normal better, which is we're just moving forward and you you can go on site, but you're going to be dealing with a distributed cell side, distributed by side team, right, so you may actually be talking in person, but you've got monitors with ten or twelve other people who are remote. So I think that's super, super interesting to see how this is all going to unfold. I've actually been thinking that the on site sales meeting could actually become a skew. I know this is a controversial way of thinking about it, but something that the byside team might be willing to pay for and that you go on site as a seller at the time and choosing of the buyers selection process. I know it's a little different because we've always thinking about sellers going out doing a certain number of meetings and some of those being in person. And what do you think about the concept of of the buying committee sort of driving the format. That is fascinating. I love that and I had not thought of that before, but interestingly enough I've already been doing that with partner enablement. So with partner enablement we have a different tears right, so different tiers and commitment from the partner side gives them access to levels of MDF, right. And so from a partner enable mint side it's kind of we talked about paper, gold, silver, platinum partners and then plastic partners. Right. Plastic is everybody use, can consume what's on demand. What I had built in several situations has been the same with enablement. Right, if you are this tier of partner, you get everything on demand plus some hours of virtual if you are this type of partner, you get some hours of in person. If you get this of canned content, if you are this platinum level of partner, then you get very highly bespoke content to your liking in your space at your time of convenience. So I love the idea of maybe we let the have the buyer shape that process kind of like you would build ps and as. Right. Yeah, I would just kind of toy around with the idea and on it and I'm sort of taken with it as well. So we'll have to see how it all unfold. No doubt I'm a bit future forward on that, but we'll see where it takes us. I wanted to just take a moment to circle back to the technology discussion, because that said Real Passion of mind amongst many other topics here today. Now I think you have sort of a top tier sales tex stack, from what I know from our conversations and if you and some other technologies that you're looking to bring into the organization. One of the things I think that's out there is sort of a misconception is that this technology, as it gets more and more sophisticated with more powerful automation and machine learning and AI, that it's...

...it's going to disintermediate the seller or it's just designed for that front of the cycle wrap who's working on high velocity and it doesn't allow for a lot of customization, and I think that so far from the truth. How are you thinking about a top tier technology stack and the ability for tech to really support a more consultative enterprise type of engagement? So I'll ask back a question this way. Would you rather type on a typewriter and use white out, or even worse, if you recall the days of the the eraser and wheel with the brush of the other end. Or would you rather Type Your Book Manuscript on a computer? Well, it's the second, right, and why is that? Because it makes it a lot more efficient to edit it. Time saves me. I can save the document, I can go back, I can edit, I can delete, I can move blocks around. Is But the human is still involved in both of those stories, right. So we don't want to use automation to replace the human. So, if you look at it's just to make the human more smarter and more effective. Right. So again, if you look at sales off this, are we doing the right things? Are We? Are we even looking at the right activities? Are we efficient with those activities? And on the aid and enabling side of the house, are we doing those things effectively? You still need the brain power of the salesperson. They just get to spend more time uplifting what they do. So, for instance, when I'm creating outreach sequences, I can touch a lot more customers without having to remember where am I with each customer and as I go down those, you know, seventeen to twenty steps, I can personalize each of those steps. I don't have to personalize the framework of the email. I can take that email, change a few keywords in there and now it's personalized. So I just get to be a lot more efficient and effective with my customer. Yeah, I completely agree, and I think it's sometimes the effectiveness gets lost in the efficiency right, because some of these tools are incredibly efficient. You can't help but, you know, build amazing our alive cases. But ultimately, at the end of the day, what we do on the tax side is help our customers create better experiences for their customers. So it's all, like you said, finding the right channel, finding the right message, getting the right time to connect with someone in a way that matters for them. So whatever you can do to keep getting the word out there, you know, please do they bill. Also the other side of that coin, hanging Mary, and I'm cure. So in one way technology is a great provider of a great experience and efficiency. In the other way, every other new piece of technology g that you add, you're creating one more layer of data fragmentation and one more stylo of data some cures. How do you bounce that right? Because one we live in a world where I was like, there is a commodity, is data Pro Liberation?...

Right. The problem is, yeah, there is, but there's not information for liberation because you almost have too much data. You don't know what to do with it. Are you don't know which is a right source for leading or lagging. So, Hey, how do you bounce that right? So creating a perfect stack with big for purpose systems and then making sure that you're pulling the right data information out of there. That is so true. And I'm having this discussion with all my vendors and with my analyst about the sales that has proliferated so crazily that everyone's got like one very niche thing they're trying to solve and then they're all trying to back into each other spaces, right, and if you talk to a cadence tool or you talk to a sales readiness platform or you talk to a sales asset management platform, they are all going to assist that you live on their platform and get at there, the single pane of glass into the other platforms, right. So at this point I feel like that is definitely a hard problem to solve. So when we look at data automation and sales digitalization. I do look at I am actually in a little bit of a holding pattern for the next twelve months because I do believe a lot of these vendors are going to solidate. They have to. Yeah, they have to write. Some of the cointelligence tools are reaching into forecasting, some of the readiness tools are reaching into coaching. They're gonna have to collapse. So right now platforms are who knows what right. You're right. I completely agree, exactly, exactly. So I think the the automation, that the tool, automatition tools, where I'm going to see value is where they start predigesting information for me. So who's going to win? Do I go with keep everything on the Crm, or do I let the cram do its thing and let it eat up forecasting and then I go with engagement or or call intelligence to kind of be the single pin of platform, single platform to look at my other pieces of data? What's going to win for me is how much do each of these tools once the ability to localize, meaning if there's anything to do with language, can you do it in local language as well? How many local languages? Japanese, Mandarin, Spanish, French, those are mustaps. Right, and then my second tier. If you don't have those, I'm not even going to talk to you, because the world does not just live in English anymore. So I'm going to look for localization and I'm going to look at how well does your data talk to other platforms to create that single pane of glass to make sense of that data, for me, to predigest that data for me, instead of just spitting out your data, and, by the way, you can import other data. I want it to actually be smart enough to predigest what the other systems are taking in. I love that perspective. You're right, the internationalization component is table stakes now, right. We are not a English and...

TURC America centric world economy any when. We stopped being that a while ago. So love that perspective. By hanging as you think about the stack and the decisions you want to make in global ready enable it. How do you partner with global sales operations on that right, because they have their own hey, I need information of both or these systems where opportunities and forecasting and pipeline and you have your knees like how do you reconcile what is our stack between your yourself and the operations team. Yeah, so part of my history was there's about two years where I had an identity crisis because I had been nearly a decade in engineering, nearly a decade in marketing and, at that time, five years in sales and I was kind of like searching for meaning in in the fact that I had never held a bag before. So how can I represent sales if I've never personally sold? So I became my own consultant in order to sell and know what it was like to hold a bag, and part of that was selling my services as anything. Sales Consulting, marking consulting. That means SALESOPS, marketing ops, sales enablement, field marketing. When I was engaged for sales enablement, the very first thing I would do is look at I would call it lay the patient on the table. It doesn't matter if if I'm the thorastic surgeon or whatever, I would lay the patient on the table, bringing all the right doctors and say, okay, this needs to get ripped out, replace, this can be fixed, this just needs medication. This is mark's just fine. The reason I give that analogy is because I do have a background in engineering, in marketing and in sales. I would look at the marketing ops, sales offs and Sales Tech Enablement, text act and to end. So when I did that at Juniper we've found a hundred and eighty four tools between the three different organizations. And then I would go to the sales teams and I would I would do some truth telling. Right, what the sales ups think of their text bact? What is marketing offs think? What a sales enablement thing? Then I would go to some of our top sellers and top about some of our top sales leaders, and I would say what do you think? Right, so you get to see the balance of the two. And then, by that way, it's not like, you know, hanging enablement is saying your baby, your baby's ugly, but mine is beautiful. We're looking at where are the gaps that fall between so from there we build a triumphvirt between the three organizations. If I am looking at doing this, how does it affect you? So before we implement anything, we talk to the other organizations. Now there's always a decider, there's always the one decisionmaker, there's some one who influences, there someone who's informed and even in a specific tool, the governance may be different. So, even though I own my sales cadence tool, my my outreach tool, there are pieces of the decision where I let marketing opps lead the decision and I follow, even though I own the tool. Same...

...with SALESOP, same with marketing ops, right. So we kind of Pars out where do we touch each other and we let each other lead the discussion in certain places. So it takes a very discipline and collaborative approach. That's yeah, and that's a lesson for everyone in collaboration. There yeah, very discipline and also mature organization. It's interesting to see that, slowly but surely, I think two PSILOS are starting to break down between marketing, sales, revops and so on, and I think vops is going to be a big driver behind the softening of those of those silos. I wish we could talk with you for another two hours hanging we can't to go. I know we both have a real passionate commitment to diversity, equity inclusion in the world and within the VB selling organization, and so would love to talk with you just for a few moments on this concept of having a more hybrid workforce, more virtual interactions how do you think that's going to impact our ability to get a more herogeneous salesports in place? It's so great that you ask that question. The diversity inclusion is very, very important to me because I believe the rules of the game are slightly different for each of us and they're written by those with our same human experience. So what going virtual has allowed is, if you look at any zoom screen right now, we all have the same real estate. We also have the same ability to raise our hand and speak and to see who's in Q, so that you can't just even consciously or unconsciously, skip certain people. What that has allowed us to do is, if you look at the studies right now, the more marginalize the community, the more they're feeling like they belong in a remote environment. Those communities also prefer to stay remote. I believe that, in an ideal world, what will happen is because we were able to flex these muscles of where we can reach into affordable communities, non traditional communities, we can hire a better time. There's a big war for talent coming on, and especially war for diverse talent, because companies and business are starting to see we're only selling to a certain population and we're missing out on all these other populations and who, to those populations, want to buy from? Diversity begets diversity, and not just physical diversity. Clearly I am a female of color, but there are other things of me that that are diverse. I am a single working mother and that carries with it with it some other adversities. But when we are all different and unique week and we all had the same real estate, will all be more of the same. So what this is brought along is a lot more ability to be to have voice, to have access and to have more belonging, and I do think as people revert back to being more in person,...

...we will have built that extra diversity and an inclusion into the environment that hopefully we will be be able to bring back in the physical spaces as well well. I certainly hope so too, and I can't thank you enough for being with us today and being with our audience. It was such a wonderful and dynamic conversation and every time we speak I learned something new from you. So really, really wonderful to have you here as a guest and thank you so much for joining us and thank you all for joining us today on Revenue Innovators podcast. We look forward to seeing you and then very near future. Absolutely my pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Revenue Innovators podcast. If you love what we're doing here, please leave us a five star rating and a shining review. If you're a revenue innovator yourself and you're not part of the sales tacer community yet, you're missing out. Go to sales tacercom to become a member, ask questions, get fast answers and your experiences with Twentyzero like winded professionals who're shaking things up in their own organizations. Let's see you back on this podcast every other week to learn from the world's most destructive revenue innovators.

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