The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

160. Why Direct Mail Sells to a Zoom-weary Population w/ Joe Venuti



Today on the show we've got Joe Venuti, Vice President of Inside Sales for Sendoso. Joe is an incredible sales leader who is also good at building out teams in the Arizona area. Arizona is a hotbed of sales talent now, so many companies like Sendoso have opened great offices there. Joe is also very familiar with leading large organizations and talented sellers.

What You’ll Learn

  1. Lessons in leadership from life as a card shark
  2. The unexpected skill you need to develop to be a manager
  3. COVID's impact on building a long-term sales organization
  4. How to maintain a health culture in a remote environment
  5. The value of physical artifacts in a digital world
  6. Who sales development should report to

Show Agenda and Timestamps

  1. Lessons in leadership from life as a card shark [6:49]
  2. The unexpected skill you need to develop to be a manager [8:05]
  3. COVID's impact on building a long-term sales organization [9:56]
  4. How to maintain a health culture in a remote environment [14:26]
  5. The value of physical artifacts in a digital world [16:27]
  6. Who sales development should report to [22:16]
  7. Sam’s Corner [29:33]


One, two, one, three, hey, everybody's Sam Jacob. Welcome to the salesacker podcast. Today in the show we've got Joe Venuty, the vice president of inside sales for Sendo. So great conversation. Joe Is an incredible sales leader, also just really good at building out teams in the Arizona area, which is sort of a hotbed of sales talent now that so many companies like sendos so have opened great offices there. And he also is just very familiar with leading our organizations and really talented seller. So it's really good conversation. Before we get there, we want to thank our sponsors versus outreach. Outreach has been a long time sponsor this podcast and they just launched a new way to learn outreach. Out outreaches the first place to learn how we outreach does outreach? Learn how the teams followed with every leading record time after virtual events. Learn how outreach runs account based plays, manages reps and so much more. Using their very own sales engagement platform. Head on over to outreach io forward slash on outreach to see what they've got going on. A second sponsors propos of FY most business is measure and optimize every part of the sales process except the most critical one, right before prospect agrees to buy and hands over their money. You wouldn't send leads through your marketing site without tracking analytics, right. So why are you still in the dark about what happens in your sales process after your reps and a proposal? Discover propos of by the proposal software that gives you control and insight into the most important stage of your sales process, the clothes. And speaking of the clothes, propose of five proposals close at double the industry standard rates. Sign up for a free trial or book a demo. I propose to FYCOM forward. Slash salesacker. And now let's listen to my interview with Joe An nuty. Hey, everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the sales hacker podcast. Today on the show we've got joe an nuty. Joe Is the vice president of inside sales at Sendoso. He was brought on to build an inside sales team and Sendosa's Arizona Office and a scaled this department of six teams and over forty people in two years. With fifteen years of sales and sales management experience, Joe has a Deep Passion for hands on coaching to make his team more successful and prides himself and putting the needs of his reps above all else. Joe's previously served... roles at lead crunch, by appointment only, and secure tosk security. Joe, welcome to the show. Thanks so much. Say I'm happy to be here. We're excited to have you. So you know, we like to start with your baseball card. We said your name, Jove Anuti. Your titles VP of inside sales. But there might be a few folks that that aren't familiar with Sendoso. So tell us in your words. What is what a Sendoso do? Yeah, so Sindoso is the first and leading sending platform. We enable sales and marketing teams to leverage direct sending through every stage of their prospect and customer journey, just at a high level. It helps breakthrough all the digital noise and emails and cold calls. It drives really, really high response rates and great engagement and really brings that human to human component back to selling, which I think is we've gotten away from as a whole. And then with covid and going remote, it's gotten even hotder. So send also really helped bridge that gap. Amazing. And how how? How big is Sindo? So from like a how big is your team, how big is the company overall? Yeah, so it's been kind of a wild ride. For me. I was the first Arizona based employee that was hired back in two thousand and eighteen. So my team's grown from just me to we're just under sixty people in my org now. And you know, as in total organization, we've grown to over a couple hundred people. So we've really really scaled quickly in two and a half years. It's been a it's been a wild ride's been a lot of fun, you know, creating and defining and leading a category and not stepping into a role in a well defined category with a bunch of competitors that we were trying to chase it. It's really been our race to lose it. It's been a blast. The competitors tend to come when you when you demonstrate that you're doing something special. I'm sure early on we talked a lot about that. Right, like competitors were a good thing, like we needed that validation. But it was important that we that we built a lead three able to do that. What's your background? Yeah, I think you know. I mentioned fifteen years of sales and sales management experience, but walk us through a little bit of the journey of... you became a sales professional and how you got into management. Yeah, I think, like everybody, it's not a super common path. But when I was in college I was working for secure Tosk, like parttime uniform security, like checking badgers for beer money. When I was in college, really did the game thing was ever going to come of it. As I was exiting school, I told them that I was going to be looking for a full time job and I didn't know what I wanted to do, but they offered me a supervisor for position and then after a year I became like a low level manager. And then there was a perfect case of right time, right place. I was working at a really, really large account and none of this was sales. It was all operations, like physical corporate security, and my manager was was let go pretty abruptly and I stepped into that job on an interim basis and ended up holding on to it for the next eight or nine years. So yeah, it was it was a wild ride. I was like two Thousan four hundred and twenty five and I had a team of like sixty. I was in way over my head, but it was a great learning experience. It taught me how to be a leader and I definitely made a lot of mistakes. I was fortuned to have a great mentor at that company that really taught me how business worked. Eventually there was a pretty big layoff that I was part of and I really didn't know what to do. Like just age and experience wise, I was not qualified for vice president roles that I wanted and a lot of the roles that I was qualified for we're significant pay cut. So I did the only logical thing there was to do. I went and played poker professionally for two years. So my parents loved that idea, but it was fun. You got to travel, get to play cards, and then when all of the online websites got shut down, I figured it was time to get a real job again, and that was when I went into buy appointment only. I started there as a sales rep and I did pretty well for about a year and then they were looking for another sales manager and I said listen, like everything on this job wreck, I have only all of my leadership experience is not sales. I interview got the job manage the team. This was all in Massachusetts. Moved down to the southern part of mass to open it office in Norwood for them.

Scaled that from zero to twenty eight and about a year and then I came out to Arizona to work in the Maser Office for by a point. I only that was a large office. There was four or five sales teams in about ninety reps, and then I eventually took a role with lead crunch and then Chris, our CEO at Sindosa, reached out one day on Linkedin and it was just going to be a conversation about sales and sales talent and sales leadership in Arizona and that high level just conversation turned into me basically saying where do I sign? I was just so bought into the vision and as he was explaining what Sindosa is or what his vision of Sindosa was, I just kept thinking of Man, I wish I had that, like wow, that makes total sense. So I got really, really excited about the opportunity and a couple of weeks later I joined and the rest of history. I love it. Well, what a great story. Well, let's love. I have a few questions. First, professional poker player. How did tell me about how that, how that came about and what I'm sure you take a ton of lessons from card playing and bring them into leadership or not, but what have you learned from being a professional card player that you bring into the business world? Yeah, I think the ability to read people. I think that's a big one. I think that's something that translates well right, understanding kind of what lovers to pull and push when you're having conversations, especially when you or wrapper or colleague by be have very good emotional reaction to something going on. I think that the ability to kind of be patient and process things quickly and in kind of pivot based on their needs is important, you know, and I mean I just think like overall, it's taught me to be more patient, right. I mean in poker you're folding eighty ninety percent of the hands that you dealt and in sales and in any business you're at least I always want to move a million miles an hour, but it's taught me to kind of wait and pick and choose my spots, you know, and try to understand the big picture rights trying to pick a choose your battles. Just like at a poker tail you would kind of pick and choose what pots you get involved in and what the you know, what's the maximum value...

...of each of each chip you put in the middle, so to speak? That's a great point. There's a lot of folks that listen that are, you know, they're all everybody has some idea, perhaps about what it might like to move from being an individual contributor to being a manager. And you know, in the Baio we talked about how, you know, you put your reps needs above all else. What are some of the things that have helped you become a great manager and leader of inside teams and what's the most, the biggest unexpected skill that you needed to develop when you're moving from being an individual contributor to a manager? Yeah, so, I mean, I think the biggest skill like initially to develop and it's not really anything that you can prepare for, especially if you're being promoted at your current company, and I experienced this back and by appointment only, was going from being peer to boss pretty much overnight. That's a really really tough transition, especially, you know, when you're working in startups where you've got your pretty relaxed culture. In a lot of cases there's, you know, happy hours and you know reps are pretty much pretty tight knit and now all of a sudden you're going to be the person to kind of temper some of those some of those events or, you know, get people back and focused and they minimize the distractions, when you know three weeks ago you might have been the biggest distraction of the floor. So I think that that's probably the biggest thing to tackle, like day one right and then obviously your your job changes. It's just managing different expectations. You know, it's a very different world worrying about five or ten or twenty or sixty different people versus just what can I do to hit my number? So yeah, it's the ability to wear a lot of different hats or some days you're going to be the boss and really push hard and some days you've got to understand the people as stressed and take on more of a friend and sometimes you got to be a mentor and sometimes the fields of you have to be a therapist. So really getting good at understandingly what each individual responds best to and also what each individual situation calls for. Absolutely, I guess one of the questions I have, and and I do of course, want to talk about Sandoza, because I'm sure so much has probably been...

...a some ways a positive impact for the business over the course of covid. But what's your point of view? You know, you were hired two years ago to build out what I would imagine to be, you know, it's you mentioned that you've got fifty people reporting to you, so you've got the requirements to build a large inside sales organization. Inside sales typically means everybody sitting next to each other in one office. How has being remote impacted the team and has it changed your point of view on whether you need a sales office in order to drive great outcomes? Or are you just as firm that? You know, remote is not the same thing. We need people to be in the office sit next to each other. That's how we get the energy. What's your point of view on the long term impact of covid on building out and inside sales organization? Yeah, I mean, I think I'm on both sides of that spectrum right. I think if you would ask me eighteen months ago, can you take it inside sales team or sales development team and make them fully remote and be as successful as you can't be in the office with no hesitation? I would have emphatically told you absolutely not. Can't be done. You need the energy, you need the camaraderie. However, when your hand is forced, it's amazing what you can accomplish after being, you know, home now for thirteen months. I think that there is a need to go back to the office in some ways, but I think the days of like Monday to Friday, nine hundred twenty five are gone. I think that, you know, you're looking at hybrid models to do. The other thing that covid is impacted and really changed is your my hiring strategies for starters. You know, we need a little bit different kid in a profile because training it on boarding is harder. But also it opened up a really, really large talent pool. Right we were hiring exclusively in SCOTTS deal to everybody was in office. No, I've now been able to expand that search across the count tree and brought in some really amazing talent and, quite frankly, if we were only in office and not looking remotely never would have interviewed. So I think this kind of two sides of the coin. But I also think that long term the office is a good thing, especially for newer reps, for on boarding, for ramping, things like that. I think it's...

...really, really important. I think as people get tenured in a little more comfortable and you know, kind of have a repeatable process down, it's probably not as necessary. So yeah, I mean in a perfect world I've got a total of, you know, six teams that I'm ultimately responsible far these different managers and directors over them. I would like to see like one day where my whole department goes to the office and then like one day a week each individual team will have their day and so means two days in, three days out for every employee. That's just my personal opinion. I know that every company's going to handle it differently and you know, it's something that's obviously a topic of conversation now with our executive team and will arrive at the best decision for the organization. But yeah, my views on it have definitely changed. Do you feel? You mentioned that you started hiring all over the country, where you strategic about like, okay, I'm and hire from all over the country, but only in these three spots, because one of the things that I've seen happen is once you start really spreading out the geography of your hiring now you've got, you know, twenty people all in different cities, and when you do if you do want to do that, that hybrid rotational model becomes basically asking people to either move or not be part of, you know, the new rotational model that you're building. Yeah, so I don't know that I intentionally hired in like just a few different locations, but it kind of turned out that I've got some folks in like the Boston Southern New Hampshire area, some folks that are in like the Austin area and then some folks that are in like California, you know, both northern and southern. So it kind of worked out that the majority of them kind of landed near each other. But when we made the decision to bring in remote people, we had no real line of sight to going back. We really weren't sure if or when and you know, honestly, we're still not a hundred percent sure when we go back or what it looks like when we do. But those people that we hired out of state, the expectation is that, you know, they can remain remote. We hired them remote we understood that they could be an impact when the rest of the company returns. But for the right talent, I think it's a reasonable accommodation for us to make. A...

...lot of these people are really really performing well and it become leaders on the team. So, you know, I certainly don't want to risk losing them or force them, you know, to pack up and move across the country when they're doing just fine doing what they're doing. It's an extra step for me and for leadership to make sure that we keep the culture intact, to keep them involved when most of the teams in the office and now you've got this subset of a few that aren't. But it's nothing that we can't manage their what are the things that you do to maintain and build a great culture and how have you I'm sure you've adapted certain tactics or strategies over the last thirteen months. What have you done to maintain culture while you're in a completely remote world? Yeah, so it's funny just as a leader and when I when I came into Sendo. So even in my interview process, like I talked a lot about we're we're building this from the ground up. Culture is my nonnegotiableets, my number one thing that I'm looking for these interviews. I let a lot of really, really good sales talent walk out of interviews without offers because, quite frank, they would have been a nightmare on the sales floor and I just don't need the headache. It's much easier when you have a cohesive unit and everybody's kind of pulling in the same direction. Little that I know that when covid hit, the fact that we had structured the team so much around our culture would be the greatest asset to me. I hear to hiring classes to this day. We had a group to start last week and every one of them tells me is they cannot believe how willing every single person on the team is to help. They feel as though they can slack or call anybody and they will stop what they're doing and it help out a new hire. So that is how we've kind of survived the onboarding process in this remote world, because it's a lot on the manager right. Managers have big teams and big numbers and now you've got a cohort of five new hires. The managers, you know, they run out of band with so being able to leverage those those more senior and more ten year reps, and they're all happy to do it, is one of like the greatest testaments for me that, like I did a pretty good job of culture. You know, the team gets along well. The biggest complaint I hear about work from home... I miss my friends. You know, I always kind of make the joke that sometimes I did two good of a job of culture, because there was a lot of those. Was Monday or Tuesday nights where a few people go for happy hour and then I could see attorney to a late night come Tuesday morning. But I guess I would rather that than have the kind of environment where people are shark at each other's leads and no one's talking and if somebody's found something that works, there not sharing it. It's a very inclusive and sharing culture and it's also one of things I'm most proud about that I've accomplished it. Some DOSA. That's fantastic. What about the business of send us? I'm sure. I mean I think we would all assume, but would love to hear some data and some perspective on how has the business of sending people things in the mail exploded stayed the same over the course of thirteen months of people being, you know, at home, trapped in their homes? I would imagine that because of that fact, the idea of sending people physical artifacts is more popular than ever, just as a way of breaking through the noise and kind of reaching some kind of human engagement when you're not allowed to, you know, have a drink with somebody or meet them in person. Yeah, I mean one hundred percent. I think I'll never forget the day that we got sent home. Right basically, I got a call and it was hey, you know, step newde at noon we're going to pretty much clear out the office and I remember walking out thinking, all right, we'll be back in like two or three weeks, this isn't a huge thing. Obviously I was wrong, but I remember in the coming two or three days there were several meetings with, you know, our sales and marketing executive team where we basically had a redefine our own entire go to market motion. Right, the world to change instantly and we made a very very cant just decision that we needed to change, but we couldn't stop. So we were able to continue to produce. We're able to continue to be productive. We were able on the the SDR team, to still drive pipeline and you know, that project is something that would typically take months to pivot and we pivoted in like three weeks. So that was kind of the big initial shift. From there, as people settled into being remote and all of the events went...

...away, yes, sending became like really their only option. So we had a nice trajectorygoing and then I think there was like that moment of panic, like what's the world going to do, you know, March of last year, and then by like mid April or May, people were kind of settling in and they needed to get back to their sales and marketing campaigns and Sandosa was there. So yeah, I mean we evolved a lot as a company. We did some things to accelerate certain features on our road map or things like address confirmation that we really push that to the forefront because we knew that was going to be more pivotal now right, I can't just send something to your office. I need a way to get something to your home. So you know, it's as an organization, I've never seen a company shift as fast as we were able to, and it set us up to be really, really successful in a really, really difficult time. That's awesome. And and how have what shifts of these seen from buyers, you know, and from people and from marketers that are implying direct sending? Obviously I must, you must have seen an explosion, but to use about like some of the trends that you've seen. Yeah, it's funny. We actually just released a state of sending report that talks a lot about this. You know, I think that emails, right and so so. Cold emails increased by like sixty two percent. Virtual events disappeared, cold calls increased by twenty eight percent. So like all of that just became overwhelming. Right. It factors into this digital fatigue and that becomes a huge barrier in either customer engagement a prospect engagement. Sindoso kind of gives people away to really sell to the human right. I mean ninety one percent of the people that responded to our survey said that a human connection is more important now than it was. Like that's what Sindoso does. It makes selling human. Again, if a sales reup takes the time to do a little bit of research, find out way you went to school, what's your favorite sports team is, and then delivers some really thoughtful, personalized messaging along with whether it's a mug or a hat or some sort...

...of like a catchy pun that's going to catch your attention, over another one of those six hundred automated emails that hit your in box today. And that's that's really how we've built this thing up. What do you see? D see is sending the new is, you know, I'm sure I'm you work for Syndosis. I'm sure I can predict your answer, but confirming and the is it here to stay? You know, do you think that, even when we were turned to the office and sort of there's a little bit more in person and human connection, or do you feel like this is established itself as just a really meaningful way? Because it's it's really funny, you know. I mean people used to send it wasn't things as much as it was like postcards and direct mail, and if you check your mailbox you still get, you know, dozens and dozens of real estate stuff. But and then it was out of favor for a while and now sending is back. Do you feel like it's here to stay? Do you feel like it's, you know, a trend? What's your perspective on kind of like the medium and long term future for getting stuff in the mail from companies that are trying to sell you stuff? Yeah, I one hundred percent think it's here to stay and I don't think it's just because I work for sendos. But that's that probably makes me a little bit biased, as you pointed out another one of you know the stats from the state ascending is direct mail is expected to be the number is the number one tactic that sales and mact leaders are planning to use in two thousand and twenty one. Now I know the part of that might be from covid but there's a lot of other avidus is a lot of other taxes that a lot another a lot of other tools and the spend that we're seeing in this space I think amplified quickly because of covid in the work from home environment, but it was already climbing before. So I think as we return this is going to be part of companies just built in ADM outbound sales marketing and CS motions, and it's not something that's going to go away because at the end of the day, you can't argue when you have a sixty or seventy percent response rate, they find me an email, cats or sequence. It's going to do that for you? It's not. But if you have well thought bought out a BM ABM process and play where your leveraging...

...sending in the right places to the right prospects and you're garnering a seventy percent response rate and that's turning into meaningful conversations, which turned into pipeline and revenue, you can't afford to cut that out because the people that are using in to run pasture. Yeah, I'd think that you're dead on. Your dead on and and make a great point. I want to shift perspectives a little bit or topics, because you are such a great leader of development, sales development, and you know there's this constant debate about who sales development should report to. Is it marketing or is it sales? And I have my own perspective on it, but I'm always curious to hear different people's perspective. What are your thoughts on you know, the SDR team the BEDR team. WHO SHOULD THEY REPORT TO? Marketing to make sure that they got tight messaging or sales, because that's the future of their careers. What are your thoughts? One of my favorite topics. I and I don't know that this is the most popular opinion, but I personally believe that sales development is moving in a direction of becoming its own pillar. It's not sales, it's not marketing, it's the bridge between the two in a lot of ways. So I really think that if you look at how sales teams and sales development things have evolved over the last two or three or four or five years, sales development has really become its own function and and and that's why you have this debate, because they don't fit perfectly into sales. They don't fit perfectly into marketing. They do a different job. There that piece in between the two. So I do think like as companies continue to scale and, you know, people really start to hammer down abm processes and things get more personalized and there's this human to human selling idea that I really think is going to be the way that we're moving into. I think that that means like sales development becomes a little more of a specialized skill. Now I understand a lot of people come into sales development and they want to move into, you know, a counter executive roles, and I think like that's still a perfectly fine career path. But I think that a couple of years ago the assumption was you could take...

...any sales leader and they could run a sales development team, but you could not necessarily take a sales development manager and put them in charge of full cycle reps with no experience. And that's probably still true. But I don't know that you can take any full cycle sales leader who is never been in str or really like run an str motion and expect them to be able seamlessly step in and run that team at the level that that like these world class organizations run. So I think we're we're seeing that shift. I really think that, you know, the proper places is kind of a pillar on the go to market team that sits, you know, between marketing and sales. I think you're making some great points and I think I think that's good, because the problem a lot of the times, and exactly to your point about like any any full cycle sales lader can run an st our team, is that you've got people that become amazing SDRs and the natural place for them might be, because they might also be great teachers, is to become SDR managers. But then they worry that the SDR manager position is kind of a dead end, that it doesn't really go anywhere. You still need full cycle experience to be the VP of sales and if you're ansty our manager, you might get stuck managing sdrs but not be able to progress up to a VP title. And so the idea that becoming great, a great sales development leader can become its own path to, you know, the c suite and a path to a cro is probably a really good thing for people's careers. I think yeah, absolutely. I mean two years ago I think you would have been hard pressed to find a VP of sales development or some of them that had my title in my exact responsibility. And you're seeing more and more and more VP level titles. So I think it's only a matter of time before there's a C level title. It's just a natural progression. The job is getting more technical, the job is moving, you know, in some ways further away from closing but also further away from, like Brandon Buzz and like mql development...

...right it's really becoming its own pillar and I think that it's only a matter of time before a lot of companies start to break it off. Makes a lot of sense. Joe, we're almost at the end of our time together and this is the part where we like to figure out your influences. If we one day want to become Joe Venuty and become a professional, professional poker player at some point, what do we need to do? Who are the people that have influenced you? If you think about like great books you've read or great mentors, people that you think we should know about, what comes to mind? So I have been lucky that I've had a lot of really great managers, that people that manage me directly throughout my career and then have turned into mentors. You know, and I touched on at the very beginning I was talking abour time at secure. To us, you know, my first real boss was also, you know, a mentor someone I can still consider a close friend, is named Shauno dwire. As I look across like the sales world, I've been very lucky to be able to work and communicate with people like like Mark Robarg and Mandy Cole, who are now part of stage through capital. You know, I've been fortunate to have a couple of meetings and conversations with them and just being able to like pick their brain and get validation from them. Right. I mean sometimes I'm thinking of something that it feels a little bit, you know, off the wall and all of a sudden they're like no, that's a great idea, like we actually did it like that, you know, in this scenario, like to have that level of validation is always been huge for me. Another person that they I really respect and work with a lot is Lauren Bailey, the founder of factor eight, the Girls Club. I've become pretty involved with girls club. As a mentor Lauren I become really, really good friends. I think that she's an amazing person. She is kind of amazing energy and yeah, yeah, Lauren's Lauren's one of my favorites. And if people I don't know well personally but really seem to get a lot out of like but I see them on a podcast or just like linked in content, Scott Lee's always comes to mind. Grad I think that everyone knows Scott. He's an amazing thought leader. But whenever I get a chance to listen to him or take a second and read something. These put out always seems to be a ton of value.

They're awesome. I think you mentioned I think you mentioned books. My favorite book by far is extreme ownership. But I think that it's nice because it moves away from like the shot every other sales book, but I think that it really talks a lot about how to own your business and own the things you're responsible for and really be a good, solid leader. So extreme ownerships like the default book that I go to. To. What somebody ask for a good book recommendation? You file a Jocko on twitter. I do. I do. He actually has a podcast that I've been listening to. I get to the game, lates on, like eight hundred episodes behind or something, but I'll get through them. He's yeah, he's an intense guy. It's a great book, Joe. If folks are listening and they want to get in touch, what's the best way to get in touch? Linkedin's probably the best. Just jove Nuty, I'm pretty responsive, so feel free to send me a connection or send me a note. I'm I'm pretty responsive. Awesome, Joe. Thanks so much for being on the show. Sorry for the background noise. I'm in the middle of New York City. You've got birds chirping in your background, but I'm drilling and cycerd so yeah, it's actually it's really nice in Arizona. So I got the window. Yeah, three weeks away from from living in an oven, so I'm trying to take advantage. Yeah, exactly. I live next to a hospital, so that's great, but we'll talk to you on Friday for for Friday fundamentals. Awesome. Sounds good. Sam, thanks so much for having me. Thanks for being here. Hey, everybody, SAM's corner. Really enjoyed that conversation with Joe Venuti. Great great person, great sales leader, and it's really cool to see the rise of this function that he's in, that he's responsible for not just insight sales but sales development and really elevating the roll of demand generation within organizations, which I think is is going to be really exciting and interesting. So I love the conversation. Thanks for listening and I think it's also just fascinating everything that's been happening with direct mail right with everything that's been going...

...on. We're all living at home. How do you how do you stand out when everybody's on zooms all day, and in one of the ways that you do that is through tactile engagement with physical artifacts, and that's that's what Sindoso does. It's it's a powerful new category and it's great because, you know, we used to think of direct mail, is like, you know, mailers from real estate agents that stuff up your mailbox, and for my mail box that still is the majority of the mail I receive. But sends it can really change the game because all of a sudden now you're receiving actual physical goods. We use them at revenue collective and every new member that signs up for an annual plan that's an executive, gets a water bottle, gets a book by Latin Conan. The chief marketing officer at six sense gets a handwritten note for me, all within a custom design box. All of that comes from send Ohso, so it's really cool. Joe's a great guy and they also are doing great things with the Phoenix area, just building up that that ecosystem, which I think is so important. So and I think it's thoughts on sort of the evolution of sales development are also really interesting. So I love the conversation. Want to thank our sponsors. Of course, outreaches the first sponsor, the number one sales engagement platform. Of course, if you want to see how our outreach uses outreach to drive success for outreach, head on over to outreach, dio, forward slash on outreach to see what they've got going on. Of course, we want to thank propose a FY propose a five proposals close at double the industry standard. Great. Sign up for a free trial or book a demo at propose a FYCOM for sales hacker. If you're not a part of the sales hacker community yet, you're missing out. Any sales professional can join as a member to ask questions, get immediate answers and share experiences with like minded be tob sales professionals. Thanks for listening. Hope you can subscribe it. Also, give us five star review, if you would know through star reviews. If you hated the podcast today and just really can't wait to turn this off, then you know, keep it to yourself, but if you loved it, give us a five star review. If you want to get in touch when you can linkedincom forwards. Lash the word in for M F Jacobs. You can email me Sam revenue collectivecom otherwise I'll talk to you next time.

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