The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

166. Announcing Pavilion w/ Sam Jacobs

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode of the Sales Hacker podcast, Sam Jacobs is interviewed by Max Altschuler, Founder & CEO at Sales Hacker and VP of Sales Engagement at Outreach, about Revenue Collective becoming Pavilion. Sam shares his vision for the new company and why it’s focused on self-actualization.

What You’ll Learn

  1. Revenue Collective is Pavilion now!
  2. How Revenue Collective first began
  3. Elminiating antagonists and protagonists in favor of self-actualization
  4. Why paid communities are superior to free communities
  5. The three codes of conduct for Pavilion members
  6. Dos and don’ts for community building

Show Agenda and Timestamps

  1. Show Introduction [00:10]
  2. Announcing Pavilion [3:57]
  3. The origin story of Revenue Collective [7:00]
  4. No antagonists, only self-actualization [16:07]
  5. The long-term vision for Pavilion [21:19]
  6. Dos and don’ts for community building [37:31]
  7. Sam’s Corner [44:30]

One, two, one, three, three, hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the sales hacker podcast. Today is a unique show, and it's a unique show because I'm the guest. We will explain why in the episode directly, but Max Altschuler, my good friend, the founder of sales hacker, is the person that interviews me and we talked about the announcements that we have today, first and foremost of which is that my company, revenue collective, is becoming a new company. It's called Pavilion, and we talked about what that means and why, and I hope it's an interesting conversation. If it's not, feel free to skip to the next episode. But I re enjoyed it and I'm so gratefullow of sales hacker team that they gave me the opportunity to sort of explain everything that we're announcing. If you are listening to this in the morning, eleven am Eastern, we have our transformed two thousand and twenty one event, which is where we'll be announcing a bunch of other stuff which you are about to hear in the episode. So, but the big news today is that revenue collective is now pavilion, and we've got a bunch, many, many other announcements that are related to that. Now, before we get to that conversation, we have three sponsors. The first is outreach. Outreach, as you know, has been a long time sponsor this podcast. They just launched a new way to learn outreach. On outreaches the place to learn how outreach does outreach. Learn how the team follows up with every leading record time. Learn how they turn leads from virtual events into revenue. You can also see how outreach runs account based plays managers wraps in so much more using a very own sales engagement platform. Everything is backed by data pulled from outreach processes and the customer base. When you're done, you'll be able to do it as well as they do. Had to outreach that io forward slash on outreach to see what they've got going on. The podcast is also sponsored by my company, Pavilion, formally revenue collective. Pavilion is the key to getting more out of your career. Our private membership connects you with a network of thousands of like minded peers and resources where you can tap into leadership opportunities, training, mentorship and other services made for high growth leaders like you. With a pavilion membership, you'll build deep connections with peers, access a full suite of training and certification programs, all included a membership, and unlock over a hundred different job opportunities all in one place. Unlock your professional potential with a pavilion membership. Go to join PAVILIONCOM. That's the new website. Join PAVILIONCOM. And, finally, linked in. Today's virtual selling environment demands a new kind of approach, one that prioritizes the buyer above all else. As the world's largest professional network with over seven hundred and twenty two million members, Linkedin, as the only place where buyers and sellers connect, share and drive success for each other every day, find new ways to connect with your buyers virtually with linked in sales navigator. You can learn more or request a free demo at business dot linkedincom. Forward, slash sales solutions and without further adults. List of my conversation with Max all Chruler. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the sales hacker podcast. Today we've got a very special episode for you, and that's because we've got my friend Maxalt Schueler on the line. Max is the founder of sales hacker. He's also the general partner of GTM Fund. He used to be the VP of marketing and outreach and still does a lot of work without reach, although I'm he'll educate us on what capacity. But the real thing is that I'm the guest today, not the person asking the questions. So Max, introduce yourself, I suppose. Yeah, thanks for having me on on your show today, or should I say thanks for having me having you on my show today. I don't even know the ring of the the ring around the Rosie we're playing here, but it is on our privilege to have you on the show. Good friend, old friend here. You were an early sales hacker supporter when you were at live stream, so it was, and we used to live stream, you know, some of our events and stuff like that. So appreciate your support over the years and now I get to support you. Tell us why you were on the show to day, why you were the guest and I am the host. I'm the guest because we've got some big announcements at my company. The thing I do during the day, my day...

...job, as they say, at revenue collective we've got some big announcements. We're making those announcements and I finaggled through a complex negotiation with you and the team at salesacker an opportunity where I could basically be the guest for once and not just be the interviewer. I love it. I love it, so let's not keep people waiting. Are we announcing? All right, so we're announcing a lot. The first is that as of today, June twenty two, the company revenue collective will no longer be called revenue collective. Instead, we will be called Pavilion. As a consequence of being called pavilion, we are expanding our original mission, which was to help our members, who were all sales, marketing and customer success executives, meeting revenue, revenue members, revenue people, help those people unlocking to achieve their professional potential. We're now going to do that for essentially any any operating professional, any person at a company that wants to achieve their career goals. We want to enable them to do that, and so with pavilion we're also announcing a new finance pavilion. All of the subcommunities will be pavilions. Will have a sales pavilion, a marketing pavilion and we will have pavilions for every functional area. As part of that, we're announcing the acquisition of two communities to enhance the pavilion membership. One of them is a community called FINNOPS, focused on finance and operations professionals. The other is a community that will power our new pavilion, focused on people in their first five years of work. So we're actually acquiring SDR defenders and the five co founders there and they are going to serve as the atomic unit from which our new pavilion analyst community emerges. So pavilions going to have three layers of seniority. There's going to be an analyst community for people in their first five years of work and associate community for people from five years to VP and an executive Communi. Dunity, for people that are VP and above. We are also announcing that we've officially crossed five thousand members. We are also announcing that, in addition to cro school revops, summer school frontline manager, School Revenue Growth Architecture school, we are also creating and including in membership to new schools chief Customer Officer School, Chief Marketing Officer School. That will launch in the fall, along with cro school fall semester, as well as a fall semester, a full fall semester for revenue operations. That's also new. And then, finally, to wrap it all up, that we've raised twenty five million dollars with around led by elephant ventures, which is a boutique VC based in New York City and Boston, and with participation from none other than GM fund, of which many LP's are revenue collective members. So now many revenue collective members are also investors in Pavilion, the new entity, as a consequence of you Max at GTM fund investing in Pavilion. So that's a lot. There's a lot of stuff there. That is a lot. Congratulations. A whole lot of stuff to unpack and hopefully we'll get into the bulk of it on this show here today. And I also want to backtrack. I want to get to know you know how revenue collective was started. You know if this was the intention all along or if you've kind of figured out the path? So we're going to get into a lot of this. But Wow, that is pretty incredible. So much to announce here and some incredible changes you built an amazing organization and we're are proud to support here at GTM fund. So without any delay, let's get into it. I want to go way back to the beginning. How did the revenue collective get started? It's a great question. Now would fall a pavilion or the Revenue Cala? Well, you know, for this conversation we can toggle, but then you know it. Going forward it will be pavilion. So pavilion was revenue collective as a five minutes ago. How did that? That hug gets started. It really got started at live stream and axel. So this is like,...

I guess, two thousand and thirteen, two thousand and fourteen. You were there, Adam Liebmann was there, Katie Sullivan from Yelp was there, Brian Kovsky is there. Basically, I started putting dinners together for sales leaders in New York really to get to know each other and then also because we were all encountering different challenges and obstacles in the course of doing our jobs and I thought that we needed to learn from each other. And so it was originally a free community. It was me and like fifteen to twenty other people that would meet regularly for and regularly I mean like once a quarter for a dinner where we'd all go Dutch, and then it was a bunch of people asking emails on an email string where everybody was in the two line. And so the shortest answer to your original question, which is did I envision all of this happening, is no, I didn't. I really started it as a means of bringing people together just in New York. We gave it an aim in two thousand and sixteen. That's when we officially called it the New York revenue collective and that was the name of the Google Group. And it became a place where select people could answer and ask questions based on what was happening in their lives. And it still wasn't a business because it was still free. And one of many inflection points happened on really when I you know, and I'm actually writing a book about this, but when I got fired from the Muse, which was two thousand and seventeen. It was October two thousand and seventeen, and that was a moment at which I decided that I had to get off the merry go round that appeared to be my career and try and create alternative revenue streams. Basically, like at that point it still wasn't some big world conquering mission. It was just I need to make money and other places than just my day job, because my day job is increasingly unstable by every appearance. And so we started charging dues January first two thousand and eighteen, and that's when it officially became a business, and I would say the rest is history. But again, to your point, there's been a number of evolutions and changes until today, and today it's a very different thing than it was eight years ago. The one thing I will say that's not different is our values and the talking point that I'm using recently, which I believe to be honest. In a world where you work at a software business, for software business the technology or lines of code and that's the tech. We're not a software business, you know, I would call us a tech enabled services business, where I'd call it something, but for us the technology are our values, and I don't mean that just to be cheeky, I mean that to be sincere. The thing that has been consistent since two thousand and thirteen and fourteen is really the spirit of what we're trying to do, which is we're trying. We're not. It's not community for its own sake. It's community to help and support specific human beings achieve their career objectives, to help people get where they want to go in their life and those and I can articulate in greater detail the specific values, but those values have been the same and they are still the same and it's what's amazing is that you know, today, with five thousand members, when people join pavilion used to be reve ne collective. They always comment on how helpful and supportive all the other members are. And if you think about me as a person that is not personally greeting every single person that joins the community, I am not personally doing all of the different activities that the team of now thirty five people is doing. What is enabling the scale, because we've gone from twenty people a few years ago to five thousand people, and the thing that is enabling the scale is the way that we teach people to behave to each other as a consequence of being a member, and that is it's not even our secret sauce, because I'm stating it publicly. It's just the thing that I do feel is hard to to copy. I think it's hard to compete against those specific values because we believe them with so much transparency, incredibility and often to city. Yeah, and I always think for businesses like this, is always a reason for like this being successful correlated to who started the business. And even...

...when I look at a bunch of the sales communities with me and sales hacker and Pete Kauz Angie in modern sales pros who just completely geeks out about all things sales and sales technology and metrics and things like that, and you, you're superpower or thing that made you kind of specialness regard as you were for time Tech Cro in New York City, so arguably like one of the go to people who has been around the block in tech as a sales leader. And you know, I remember a lot of conversations in you know, fo fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, even seventeen, where people are like well, you know, who should I talk to about negotiating my comp for this company? Or you know I'm going to start doing consulting, who should I talk to or or whatever what have you. You were super well network, but you were also well versed in a lot of these things. That people needed for their careers, not just for their jobs. And when you start to see now in this, you know, remote world that we're in, this kind of like transient world that we're in, where people work for startups for two or three years at milestones and then, you know, especially as a sales leader and marketing leader whatnot, they get turned out for the person that could take it from the next stage and you kind of hand up a ton off. You have to make sure that you're you know, you're able to negotiate the right things in your packages when you go to work for a company and and you've been a champion for executives versus, you know, founders or VC's, and I think that really kind of helped solidify the brand but also made it super authentic from the founder of the community and you essentially scaled yourself. Instead of doing cro classes or whatnot, or cro like mentoring or whatnot, you now have classes for it, instead of giving people one off advice or introducing them one by one, you've created a community for it and you've kind of figured out a way to scale yourself over the different phases of the business and especially when it went from from dinners that were all in person, then into the you know part in person, part on slack, then covid hit. Everything seamlessly translated to online and I think that's when, you know, the business came out with the you know cro school and things like that. So it's been really interesting to watch it, but it's also been really interesting to look at it from, you know, my perspective, having seen it really from the very beginning, and say, well, there are very few people can start this from scratch, but Sam makes total sense and you did a good job on it. I think it was ranks. Yeah, yeah, thank you. Yeah, and I I guess. Yeah, I mean to the point of, like, like you said, in many ways the joke that I make to my wife is, you know, pavilion is Sam as a service. It's all of the things that I believe trying to to be placed into a recurring revenue business, which, Joe, course, I'm also a huge believer in, and I think that the difference that I see is one difference is that I always say, you know, certain communities. I've even heard you know, Pete talk about this, like elevating the profession of sales, elevating the profession of Rev ops and for me that that wasn't why I did this. This isn't, for me, about elevating a specific profession. It's about helping individual human beings, and that's why, from the beginning, it was always it's not about like a theoretical construct of what a salesperson might be. It's that this person is a VP of sales and they are negotiating a new job, or they are in their job and they need to know how to do territory design or they need to know how to build out a partner strategy. Let's specifically help this person so that they can be better in their job, so that they can reduce the rest that they get fired or find a better job or just sleep better at night. And that's that's the thing that gets me out of bed in the morning. Is Not, again, it's not community for its own sake, because the word gets tossed around so much these days. There's a point to its. I call it community powered products and services, and the products and services are all...

...designed with a very specific goal in mind, which is to help you, as a human being, get where you want to go in your life. Yeah, and you also had a really good story and created a movement. I think you had. You had a you or the protagonist in the antagonist was the founders, who could kick you added any second and have no risk whatsoever and got the majority of the equity, or the VC's who own the majority of the company. Or what about the executive who put their kind of life and career on the line to go work for a company, only to be, you know, fired in nine months or something like that because the VC's changed, you know, their aggressive goals or something, and I think a lot of people resonated with that story, like wow, I need to do a better job of building my packages when I go to companies or calling the shots. I am an asset. You really created a movement, I think, with, you know, the CMOS and the crows at least the start, and now it's it's great to see you going through not only those three tiers but into the different functions across the board. What do you call it? Is Is it non code rolls? Do you have like a name for those functions? I don't know. I mean for me, we're going to go into every function where there are community leaders that want to build community in support of people achieving their career goals. So we're going to have a product pavilion, we're going to have an engineering pavilion, we're going to have a CEO Pavilion, and you're right that, you know, that's part of the reason why we're changing the name, by the way, is because, besides the obvious fact that there's ten million things called blank collective and you know, many of our competitors, you know, just call they just like put a slight modification on then a pennd collective to, you know, whatever the name is. But beyond that, the exactly your point, Max. That sort of speaks to part of the evolution, which is that I did start off in kind of like this US versus them mentality and the concept of a collective. For me, it doesn't necessarily evoke confrontation or conflict, but it kind of does, you know, it evokes in celerity in a way. It's like us against them, this it's this group of people against something. Perhaps it's against the outside world, and I've shifted personally and become, hopefully, you know, I would imagine, less antagonistic, and so now it's it's less about like there being an enemy. I don't think founders or investors are really any function is the antagonist. I think the brand is about personal actualization. You know, it's about helping whoever you are, achieve whatever you're trying to achieve and making sure that you have as many resources as possible to get there. I do think, to your point, though, that you know we're launching a will launch a CEO pavilion that will sit alongside our sales pavilion, our market appell it. Frankly, one of the reasons is because so many revenue collective members from the old days are now CEOS, including me, and I can rattle off a long list of others. But the point isn't that CEOS are the antagonist in this equation. The real point is that there are no antagonists and that everybody's going to be treated equally and that they may not be the antagonist, but they're also not the protagonist. This is not a story built around founders or built around investors. It's built around all of us as human beings coming together and really that we're coming together. The point of pavilion is that we're coming together because we believe in the essence of a certain way of doing business, and that way of doing business is not transactional. The whole point of what we're trying to do and the reason that we think there can be multiple pavilions is because the core concept that was revenue collective isn't about US versus them. It's about this idea that if you help other people and you have a long term view on what that means, and you don't, you don't treat them as transactually you give before you get. You look to support, which so many other communities are built around. Right, many, many communities are built on the same concept, which is why we think that they're great potential partners for US or potential parts of pavilion.

But the core concept is like hey, we can all go further by helping and supporting each other than we can alone, and whatever that means in that moment is what it means. But we all agree that as a member of this community, this association, we're going to be responsive to each other, we're not going to spam or solicit each other and we're going to help each other and support each other and whatever way we can, as long as it's not directly competitive, and most of the time it's not. And so that's the foundational lynchpin that undergirds all of the different things that we're building is that basic idea, and that idea can again. It's not specific to any function and it doesn't have an antagonist. It only has a protagonist in the protagonist is you as a human being. And so the world that we envision, the world I envision, increasingly right because, to your point, like this is an evolution for me person only as well. It's not about like VC's being the bad guys or girls or CEO's being bad people. Nobody's definitionally a bad person. We're all going to agree within this community, within as members of Pavilion, and I can talk about like how the business is specifically designed to enable that, but we're all going to agree that like this is the way that we believe success is possible. Is Not just by being cut throat and mercenary and zero sum, it's by helping and supporting other people as much as we can and that in so doing we can further our own personal professional objectives. So yeah, and I want to learn more about the long term vision and the Road Map, but I I like your sentiment there around this is more to over time and I think all communities kind of, or in general, movements start as maybe one thing and over time move into another. I could be look at sales for us. I mean their whole like rally cry was no software, and that was fifteen years ago, right. So like we're okay, we'll get it. We're passed off where everybody knows the cloud is now. And so you know, they have, they've probably gone through three or four iterations, maybe even more on that, especially as they've acquire acquired companies over the past fifteen, twenty years since they've you know, started, launched one, public etc. Etc. So it's interesting to see, you know, again from my point of view, the phases of revenue, collective and now pavilion tell us where it's going. What's the long term vision for the organization? So the long term vision is sort of what I just mentioned, which is that and again this is me and like how always on some soapbox yere's ago. It's like making sure everybody gets severance because I've been fired so many times. But so this soapbox is about like everybody's experience of the Internet. So we've all been trained to experience the Internet a specific way and that is that and I'm only parroting, you know, the social dilemma or any anybody's main criticism of, you know, platforms like facebook. But the bottom line is that we experience the Internet as basically free, and an exchange for being free, our information and our behavior is sold to third parties within the professional world. The way that that works is that our information is often sold to recruiters, to SDRs and prospectors and to other advertisers that want to sell it stuff. And, as a consequence, like the way that certain platforms evolved, becomes about getting as much audience engagement as possible, and that's because it's a feature, not a bug, right, like the point of like getting engagement on posts and making sure that they are surfaced high in the feed and that you get as many likes as you can and you have to, you know, get as many comments as you can and to incite conflict and debate. That's a feature, not a bug, of the way that these things are designed, because advertising, fundamentally, advertising is the business and so to make that business work, you you just many people as possible. There's a different world that's possible on my opinion, and that's a world where it challenges norms. So one of the norms is that, like every platform should be free. So our platform, of course, is not free. Right. So the world that I envision is a world that is not eight hundred million people or a billion people or five billion people all on one platform. It might be only a million people, or two million people or ten million people. So a fraction of these the largest kind of consumer social platforms that are out there. But everybody on these platforms will have done...

...something different because they will be paying and as a consequence of them paying, they will be customers of this platform, which is pavilion, and as a consequence of being a customer and not just audience or a user, they will experience a different level of service and engagement then they really have ever experienced around the concept of helping them achieve their professional goals. Right. So the world that I envision is, let's say it's a million people and we're only at five thousand today, so there's a long way to go, all of whom are paying pavilion members. As a consequence of paying, we can build stuff for them that other people can't build. There will be, you know, right now every pavilion member gets a welcome call the minute that they sign up from a human being that welcomes them to the community and walks them through how to use it. Every member that's on an annual plan gets a welcome box with a great book by Latiny Cona and a thermis and a handwritten note from me. And that's just the beginning of all the things that we want to do for people. We have a career services team that helps people find jobs and helps people find talent. We have all of the schools that I mentioned at the outset that you talked about there all included a membership. All of that is a function of the fact that people are paying. So we take the money that people pay to do is and we reinvest it back into tools and services that they can use to help them get where they want to go. And people are going to are not used to this, because what we're used to is like something like facebook, where like there's no number to call if you have a problem with facebook, like there's there's no help desk. They don't you're not the customer, right, you're the user. So the core will be to treat as many people as want to join and are qualified to join, as customers and treat them amazingly well. And then the second part of it is those values that I talked about. So this is a world where, Hey, we want your money. You know, we do want you to be a paying customer, but also all of the people that are members of this thing, this pavilion, this big Global Pavilion, will all have agreed to abide by our code of conduct, and that code of conduct, as I mentioned, is basically three important tenants. The first is that you believe that in order to get something, you need to give something first, that the world is better when we all believe in Karma, when we all invest in goodness and support and pat and compassion and in helping other people, and that we don't immediately send them a bill when we help them. That this is not this is not transactional relationship building. This is long term investments in helping and supporting other people, because it'll make you feel good as a human being and because it will redound to you in the form of success. It'll just possibly take place over a longer period of time than closing the deal right away. So the first most important tenant of all of these people is that we give before we get. The second is that, as a consequence of that, you know, this great power that we're all going to be good to each other. Means that we're not going to spam each other. Right. We're not going to scrape the network and then give it to, you know, a sales team or recruiting team and pound people with emails as a function of their membership and pavilion. There are other places where that happens and that's the business model and those places are awesome, but that's not what we're going to do. We're not going to use our membership as a means of directly transactionally creating new sales opportunities and selling to people. We're going to sell to people in the long term by being helpful and supportive and establishing ourselves as experts and as as a consequence of doing that, we will end up doing more business for our companies. So the second rule is no, no direct solicitation, no unwanted selling. And the third is, as a consequence of all that, because we've agreed to that, you do have to be responsive, that it means something when another pavilion member reaches out to you, and so those three values all baked into the community in addition to the products and services that we build, mean that there's a different world that's possible, a different world where work is done differently, where, yes, it's not eight hundred million people, but a million people still a lot of people. And so in New York, you know, we've got close to a thousand members now that are members just in sales and marketing and cus. So let's say it's five thousand people. It's Tenzero people. So you know, Max, that anywhere you go, you're in Austin, you're in Seattle, you're in New York, you're in Bangladesh, you're in Dublin, it doesn't matter. You're in Stockholm, you're in Singapore, you're in Sydney, Australia, you're in Tokyo, wherever you put your feet down, there's a...

...group of people, all of whom have put their hands in and said we're going to help you, we're going to support you, just let us know if you need anything. So the minute that you land in a new city, like you just move to Austin, you've got a baked in group of two thousand, Threezero people that are willing to help you find talent willing to help you find a job, willing to help you find office space and instant ability to push go on a button and get all of the support that you need. And that's just the membership, in addition to the infrastructure and resources that we are building at HQ to make sure that you get the training you need, the certification you need, the long term opportunities that you need, etc. So The big vision is a million people all over the world working to support each other, believing that, you know, cutthroat business is not the only way to succeed and that there's a way to succeed by helping other people and by being a good person. That's amazing. I mean it's it's a lot to do, as a lot of it is a lot to do, and my follow up question for you was like, I guess what the Hell they need twenty five million dollars for? But it does seem like that is a capital intensive and pretty large vision. But but it all serious. Miss Revenue Collective. Now pavilion was a profitable business growing quickly. Twenty five million is a large number. You know you've been notoriously kind of against raising money. So this plan just come out of an off site one day and you were like, Holy Shit, we actually need some cash to do this, or kind of what was the inferous for the race, the impetus for the Rais was? I mean, we weren't looking to your point. You know, we were profitable. We grew, you know, in two thousand and twenty we grew membership. We're about, I don't know, twelve hundred, thirteen hundred people. At the beginning of two thousand and twenty we were three thousand, seve hundred and fifty. At the end we're five thousand now. So we've been growing at essentially what I would which would or venture rates. So we are, I would say we are candidate for it's been so you think about our business, if you if you think that only software businesses are things that can scale, then you wouldn't wear not a software business. And if you think that actually, because of no code and because of all the tools that are available, that many, many businesses now have the profile of a software business, even if they are not explicitly a software business, then maybe you're interested. So elephant reached out to me. I've been in touch with them over the past couple of years because I take frankly, every call and it was just I would do a deal, we would do a deal if it were under the right terms. But also, to your point, it was sort of like the catalyst for me to think bigger about what might be possible. And of course we'd never contemplated acquisitions before. We never contemplated that, and that's when it was sort of like everything kind of happened at once, in the sense that they started talking about possibly investing and then my brain opened up to this idea, like this vision that I just described to you. As I said, those values that I that I talked about are not they're not so specific to me and to pavilion. They're actually pretty common across the people that tend to start communities, and the problem with many something that problem. It just depends what you want from them. But but the reality of many communities, especially ones that are free, is that it's hard to ascribe enterprise value to them because they don't have revenue, or the only revenue of the you have a sponsorship refinue. So there's all these communities out there that could potentially be very valuable if perhaps they were part of something bigger, and if that bigger thing share the values that they had when they started their community, and so that was sort of like a light bulb over my head in the middle of these fundraising conversations of wow, there's an opportunity to grow inorganically as well as organically, that there are lots of different people, community leaders, people that have started, you know, people like, although we haven't approached you know, Pete, but like people like me and you and Pete Kazanjie, all of whom might want, frankly, both some cash money but also some a currency, meaning equity in a global entity that...

...might be worth something, where they could be greater than the some, you know, when the whole is greater than the some of its parts, where all these community leaders, working under a common umbrella, have an opportunity to build something that is more meaningful perhaps than just doing it on their own. Now, not everybody is going to want to do that. Many people are going to want to be, to remain independent, and that's totally cool and awesome. And many people are going to think that their community is worth a hundred million dollars when, you know, there's a point of disagreement about that, and that's totally cool too. But there's, I would imagine, a large group of people that are saying, you know, I'd love to keep doing this, I want to do this, but I want to do it with some infrastructure. I want my people to get a welcome call when they sign up and I want my people to get a welcome box in the mail and I want my people to get a school that they can take that's related to the topic. So, for example, one of my friends that's a member email may year ago and is like, Hey, you know, obviously cannabis is a huge and growing industry all over the world, especially in every state where it's legal. So there's this big burgeoning group of entrepreneurs and he said I want to you know, should I start the cannabis collective? I said sure, do whatever you want. Well, now, a year later, I can say, hey, why don't you start the cannabis pavilion and why don't you create a pavilion, which is basically our word for a subcommunity, and we can give you all the infrastructure you need. You can still be the leader of that pavilion. If you're doing it to make money, it's probably not the best way to make quote unquote, money, but it is a way to have infrastructure around you that you can support, that can support you, and you can still be the leader of the community. You can be the person at the center, you can be the person that connects other people and, as a consequence, maybe has influence and power. Maybe you'll get visibility on the good jobs and of course you'll promote wherever you're working at the time. And this person works at at a cannabis company, of course. So equality or or cash from you for them? Yeah, it's both. Yeah, so there is still some not that okay. So you didn't waste any time, you know, it was putting this money to work. Tell us about the two communities you've already acquired. Is there any more information you can give us in this podcast about the two that you mentioned earlier? Yeah, they're just their Finna. I mean we, you know, we'RE BUILDING OUT OUR FINANCE PAVILION. We had this thing called operations collective. You know, to be completely honest, it was not you know, there was a sense of there's a sense of vibersy vibrancy within revenue collective that wasn't present in operations collective and we wanted, and we realize we needed people that were leaders of finance communities and operations communities in order to inject it with some life. And so we approached this community called finnops, which is a couple hundred people. It's run by these two guys, Brian Seplicki and Peter Nest Bit, and again, the the pitch that I made just now resonated. It was yeah, we want that, we want we don't have time to do this. We'd to make this everything it could be. We constantly are debating whether we should quit our jobs and do it full time. We decided that we're going to keep our jobs. It would be really nice to make sure that this thing became something more than just what it is right now, and so we did that. And then we wanted to you know, we have an aspiration of kind of like not cradle to grave, but from your first day of work as a professional to the day that you retire. You know, we aspire to have a community for you, and we didn't have one for people early in their careers and, of course, a bunch of revenue collective members, which is how it all came to beast head started stur defenders about a year ago. It was Kyle Coleman and Josh Roth and nicha peric and Nikki Ivy and Tom Bakard. Those are the five. so we approached them and I think they'd been waiting for me to approach them. So they were very enthusiastic. So that was that was amazing. And there are other conversations I can't, you know, share right now, but yeah, I mean we're we're in lots of different conversations because there's lots of people out there that want to or are leading groups of people. They just want more support and help to do it. Love it. Yeah, and you know, GTM fun came in on this round. I think it was a very fair and reasonable valuation. I think very, very great for both sides. Honestly, I think there's a lot of upside for us as an investor.

I think the valuation was definitely a testament to the work that you've done to date in quite frankly, a short period of time, Getting pavilion to where it is now. You know, know a lot of your employees and team members who you know I think world of, and I personally have been involved in building businesses in this space for a long time. Between you to me, which is, you know, Full Ed Tech on that education marketplace, and sales hacker, which was a community for B Tobase, Beb salespeople with about a hundred, seventy thousand members, and that's a free community. You know, I really believe that this is the future of kind of new age education communities, cohorts, real life skills. I'm investor personally in on deck and Maven and now we're in pavilion. So I think there's just so much opportunity right now to really learn some life skills. Developed networks. It's not location dependent anymore and you've really created something. I think I've said this before on while we were on we did our short run on clubhouse shortly week, eight week run their off Broadway. Your company is your community for your job, but this is your community for your career and sometimes you got to go outside of your job and outside of that community to get the things that you need to look out for yourself and look out for your family, look out for your career, what's best for you. So having something like pavilion as a it's an amazing resource and has been amazing resource and I'm sure the NPS is off the charts. But you know, just from speaking to people who are in it with myself, obviously, outreach has been a long time sponsor and proud supporters. So we're pumped for you. This is incredible and I want to end end here with a quick lightning around actionable takeaways. Built a five thousand person paid community, let's say in three years time, or so four years. Give me, like the top one to three things you must do and like the top one to three things you definitely shouldn't do when building a community and a business like the revenue collective. And now, wow, okay, actionable takeaway. So I'll try to be high level and medium level or and I don't know if these are the top these are just the things that are coming to mind. The first is I think you should, I believe, in paid communities versus free communities, because this is up to you, listener, whatever you want to do, and lots of people have built free community. So I am being, you know, nonconventional by saying that. And the reason I believe in paid communities is because I believe that you need to overinvest in member success, and so one of the points that we pride ourselves on is our member success team is always going to be the biggest team at the company and it's you know, we have thirty five people and well over a third of them are fact that. You know, it's like our are are on the member success team and we expect that to always be the case because we always want to amaze and delight our customers who are our members. I don't know if that's super actionable. Here's something super actionable. The problem with the free version of slack is that you can't change people's names and I'm a big believer in kind of hygiene that communities need to be a well tended garden. They don't they shouldn't be overgrown, and part of the way that you keep them well tended as by having naming conventions for how People's Names Appear in slack if you're using slack, or on a different platform, if you're using a different platform. So we upgraded to the paid version of slack at the very beginning because I wanted to change how people's names look so that you couldn't have like Philly, Philly Joe One thousand seven hundred and ninety two next to Sam Jacobs NYC. So everybody has their first and last name and their city affiliation. But it's consistent and it's well organized and I think that gives the appearance of order, which helps because it gives people comfort and engaging. Knowing that sort of there's a sense that the thing is being tended...

...to in terms of you know what you shouldn't do. I mean again, like I I don't know. I I think you shouldn't start a community if you don't know why you're starting a community or if the point of it is that you feel like you need to be at the center of a group of people and you don't have the values that motivate you. Beyond that, I trying to think, as I say, any bone head errors you made along the way that we were like, I'll damn it him. I don't know. I wish I could. I do. It is not because I'm egotistical, it's because I'm like one of our core values is this thing listen closely at quickly. The point is like rapid iteration and response to customer feedback. So, like, I'm I'm sure we made a ton of errors. I mean obviously the platform is totally different than what we do today, but I don't view any of the other I was making. At every point I was making the best decision I had given the information that I had. The biggest error. I mean, again, these are like so so high level. Is So perhaps be annoying, but I think most people, you know, have this thing called the decision coefficient, which is basically a math problem. Of person makes two decisions an hour but is only correct two thirds of the time, so wrong often. And there's another person that makes one decision an hour but is right most of the time, ninety percent accuracy right. And what you do when you compare those people as you realize that the person that's wrong one third of the time a lot is correct one point four times per hour, and the other person's correct point nine times per hour, which means that the person that's wrong more often is correct fifty percent more often. The point of all of that is that one of the things that you can do is take too long to make decisions and at you know, like the way that you win? I think it's by being highly iterative and by understanding that most of the time you're not going to make a decision that you can't turn back. That the subject line of the email. The way that you've designed. Whatever the process is. The process can change to software can be rewritten and it's and speed helps you cover more ground so that you can move more quickly. So that's one thing that I think. Yeah, they have a I think it's something an Amazon that they talk about where it's like revolving door decisions where two way word and one way door. It's like, if this decision could be reversed easily, then let's make it quickly. If this decision is a one way door and we can't reverse it, then we can take time on it. Yeah, and understanding which one is which so you can move quickly on the ones that you can reverse and slower on the ones that can't. Yeah, it's a great it's a great way of thinking about it. I think that anecdote is good takeaway. Cool, Sam Max, so much for coming on yourself. Thank you for having me on my show. Exactly. We've had you as the host of the Sales Haggerp podcast for how many years now is but like two and a half or three years? Two Thousand and eighteen, three years, lawy, plus years promised to Tuesday. Yeah, I mean then you have the fundamental Fridays and and and your music, I think, is the lead in. So your your finger prints all over it. But it's been fun to watch. Now Fun to be a part of through the GTM fun. You know, we have our relationship to sales hacker, to or big sponsor through at each as well. So now we're investing in digital ponies. We are, we're part of the same stable. No, stable, no fun. Yeah, follow us on zed dot run, not stay. Will Know Fun. We're doing NPT hords racing, I guess. Now I don't know what this world is coming to, but take my money. Here you go. You and me are involved in fifteen different business ventures. Yeah, we're investors in GTM fun, GTMS, investors in us, you know, fifteen different side deals. It's great. I've you know, we've been very successful doing business together, Max, so I'm always happy to do it, I think. And the great thing is the entities involved of all been very successful because of it too. So I think you know, it's not just a selfless thing. We are. It's been fun, it's been fruitful, enjoyable and looking forward to a lot more of it. And congratulations on all the announcements. If you if you missed it,...

...go back to the beginning of this episode, where Sam monologs for five minutes about all the major just pled together, including twenty five Million Dollar Fun Rais and some acquisitions and a rebranding from the revenue collective to pavilion. Thank you, Max, thanks for having me. I'll talk to everybody next time. Hey, everybody, it's SAM's corner. Well, I was the guest this I'm so so I don't know that I need a Sam's corner to wrap up all of the things that I just said and rambled down about, but I do want to say thank you to sales hacker. I want to say thank you to all of you for listening and supporting both this podcast and revenue collective over the years. As hopefully you just heard, we announced that we are now a company called Pavilion. We closed a twenty five million dollar financing around led by elephant fincher's. We crossed five thousand members. We announced a bunch of new schools that are all included in membership. We acquire two communities, fin ops and SDR defenders, and much, much more to come, and there's probably a few other announcements that I'm forgetting, but those are the big ones. So if you want to learn more about to join PAVILIONCOM. Of course we want to thank our sponsors. Pavilions one of them, so I just told you about them. But also outreach, if you want to learn how outreach does. Outreach which was recently valued, I think, over four billion dollars, so a quad corn, whatever that might say. But the point is that manny and the team over it, outreach, have done an amazing job. Had to outreach dot ioh for slash on outreach to see what they've got going on. And finally, linkedin find new ways to connect with your buyers virtually with linkedin sales navigator. You can learn more or request a free demo at business dot linkedincom forward slash sales solutions. Thanks for listening, everybody, and thanks again for your support.

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