The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 7 months ago

166. Announcing Pavilion w/ Sam Jacobs


In this episode of the Sales Hacker podcast, Sam Jacobs is interviewed by Max Altschuler, Founder & CEO at Sales Hacker and VP of Sales Engagement at Outreach, about Revenue Collective becoming Pavilion. Sam shares his vision for the new company and why it’s focused on self-actualization.

What You’ll Learn

  1. Revenue Collective is Pavilion now!
  2. How Revenue Collective first began
  3. Elminiating antagonists and protagonists in favor of self-actualization
  4. Why paid communities are superior to free communities
  5. The three codes of conduct for Pavilion members
  6. Dos and don’ts for community building

Show Agenda and Timestamps

  1. Show Introduction [00:10]
  2. Announcing Pavilion [3:57]
  3. The origin story of Revenue Collective [7:00]
  4. No antagonists, only self-actualization [16:07]
  5. The long-term vision for Pavilion [21:19]
  6. Dos and don’ts for community building [37:31]
  7. Sam’s Corner [44:30]

One, two, one, three, three, hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the sales hackerpodcast. Today is a unique show, and it's a unique show because I'mthe guest. We will explain why in the episode directly, but Max Altschuler, my good friend, the founder of sales hacker, is the person thatinterviews me and we talked about the announcements that we have today, first andforemost of which is that my company, revenue collective, is becoming a newcompany. It's called Pavilion, and we talked about what that means and why, and I hope it's an interesting conversation. If it's not, feel free toskip to the next episode. But I re enjoyed it and I'm sogratefullow of sales hacker team that they gave me the opportunity to sort of explaineverything that we're announcing. If you are listening to this in the morning,eleven am Eastern, we have our transformed two thousand and twenty one event,which is where we'll be announcing a bunch of other stuff which you are aboutto hear in the episode. So, but the big news today is thatrevenue collective is now pavilion, and we've got a bunch, many, manyother announcements that are related to that. Now, before we get to thatconversation, we have three sponsors. The first is outreach. Outreach, asyou know, has been a long time sponsor this podcast. They just launcheda new way to learn outreach. On outreaches the place to learn how outreachdoes outreach. Learn how the team follows up with every leading record time.Learn how they turn leads from virtual events into revenue. You can also seehow outreach runs account based plays managers wraps in so much more using a veryown sales engagement platform. Everything is backed by data pulled from outreach processes andthe customer base. When you're done, you'll be able to do it aswell as they do. Had to outreach that io forward slash on outreach tosee what they've got going on. The podcast is also sponsored by my company, Pavilion, formally revenue collective. Pavilion is the key to getting more outof your career. Our private membership connects you with a network of thousands oflike minded peers and resources where you can tap into leadership opportunities, training,mentorship and other services made for high growth leaders like you. With a pavilionmembership, you'll build deep connections with peers, access a full suite of training andcertification programs, all included a membership, and unlock over a hundred different jobopportunities all in one place. Unlock your professional potential with a pavilion membership. Go to join PAVILIONCOM. That's the new website. Join PAVILIONCOM. And, finally, linked in. Today's virtual selling environment demands a new kind ofapproach, one that prioritizes the buyer above all else. As the world's largestprofessional network with over seven hundred and twenty two million members, Linkedin, asthe only place where buyers and sellers connect, share and drive success for each otherevery day, find new ways to connect with your buyers virtually with linkedin sales navigator. You can learn more or request a free demo at businessdot linkedincom. Forward, slash sales solutions and without further adults. List ofmy conversation with Max all Chruler. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcometo the sales hacker podcast. Today we've got a very special episode for you, and that's because we've got my friend Maxalt Schueler on the line. Maxis the founder of sales hacker. He's also the general partner of GTM Fund. He used to be the VP of marketing and outreach and still does alot of work without reach, although I'm he'll educate us on what capacity.But the real thing is that I'm the guest today, not the person askingthe questions. So Max, introduce yourself, I suppose. Yeah, thanks forhaving me on on your show today, or should I say thanks for havingme having you on my show today. I don't even know the ring ofthe the ring around the Rosie we're playing here, but it is onour privilege to have you on the show. Good friend, old friend here.You were an early sales hacker supporter when you were at live stream,so it was, and we used to live stream, you know, someof our events and stuff like that. So appreciate your support over the yearsand now I get to support you. Tell us why you were on theshow to day, why you were the guest and I am the host.I'm the guest because we've got some big announcements at my company. The thingI do during the day, my day...

...job, as they say, atrevenue collective we've got some big announcements. We're making those announcements and I finaggledthrough a complex negotiation with you and the team at salesacker an opportunity where Icould basically be the guest for once and not just be the interviewer. Ilove it. I love it, so let's not keep people waiting. Arewe announcing? All right, so we're announcing a lot. The first isthat as of today, June twenty two, the company revenue collective will no longerbe called revenue collective. Instead, we will be called Pavilion. Asa consequence of being called pavilion, we are expanding our original mission, whichwas to help our members, who were all sales, marketing and customer successexecutives, meeting revenue, revenue members, revenue people, help those people unlockingto achieve their professional potential. We're now going to do that for essentially anyany operating professional, any person at a company that wants to achieve their careergoals. We want to enable them to do that, and so with pavilionwe're also announcing a new finance pavilion. All of the subcommunities will be pavilions. Will have a sales pavilion, a marketing pavilion and we will have pavilionsfor every functional area. As part of that, we're announcing the acquisition oftwo communities to enhance the pavilion membership. One of them is a community calledFINNOPS, focused on finance and operations professionals. The other is a community that willpower our new pavilion, focused on people in their first five years ofwork. So we're actually acquiring SDR defenders and the five co founders there andthey are going to serve as the atomic unit from which our new pavilion analystcommunity emerges. So pavilions going to have three layers of seniority. There's goingto be an analyst community for people in their first five years of work andassociate community for people from five years to VP and an executive Communi. Dunity, for people that are VP and above. We are also announcing that we've officiallycrossed five thousand members. We are also announcing that, in addition tocro school revops, summer school frontline manager, School Revenue Growth Architecture school, weare also creating and including in membership to new schools chief Customer Officer School, Chief Marketing Officer School. That will launch in the fall, along withcro school fall semester, as well as a fall semester, a full fallsemester for revenue operations. That's also new. And then, finally, to wrapit all up, that we've raised twenty five million dollars with around ledby elephant ventures, which is a boutique VC based in New York City andBoston, and with participation from none other than GM fund, of which manyLP's are revenue collective members. So now many revenue collective members are also investorsin Pavilion, the new entity, as a consequence of you Max at GTMfund investing in Pavilion. So that's a lot. There's a lot of stuffthere. That is a lot. Congratulations. A whole lot of stuff to unpackand hopefully we'll get into the bulk of it on this show here today. And I also want to backtrack. I want to get to know youknow how revenue collective was started. You know if this was the intention allalong or if you've kind of figured out the path? So we're going toget into a lot of this. But Wow, that is pretty incredible.So much to announce here and some incredible changes you built an amazing organization andwe're are proud to support here at GTM fund. So without any delay,let's get into it. I want to go way back to the beginning.How did the revenue collective get started? It's a great question. Now wouldfall a pavilion or the Revenue Cala? Well, you know, for thisconversation we can toggle, but then you know it. Going forward it willbe pavilion. So pavilion was revenue collective as a five minutes ago. Howdid that? That hug gets started. It really got started at live streamand axel. So this is like,...

I guess, two thousand and thirteen, two thousand and fourteen. You were there, Adam Liebmann was there,Katie Sullivan from Yelp was there, Brian Kovsky is there. Basically, Istarted putting dinners together for sales leaders in New York really to get to knoweach other and then also because we were all encountering different challenges and obstacles inthe course of doing our jobs and I thought that we needed to learn fromeach other. And so it was originally a free community. It was meand like fifteen to twenty other people that would meet regularly for and regularly Imean like once a quarter for a dinner where we'd all go Dutch, andthen it was a bunch of people asking emails on an email string where everybodywas in the two line. And so the shortest answer to your original question, which is did I envision all of this happening, is no, Ididn't. I really started it as a means of bringing people together just inNew York. We gave it an aim in two thousand and sixteen. That'swhen we officially called it the New York revenue collective and that was the nameof the Google Group. And it became a place where select people could answerand ask questions based on what was happening in their lives. And it stillwasn't a business because it was still free. And one of many inflection points happenedon really when I you know, and I'm actually writing a book aboutthis, but when I got fired from the Muse, which was two thousandand seventeen. It was October two thousand and seventeen, and that was amoment at which I decided that I had to get off the merry go roundthat appeared to be my career and try and create alternative revenue streams. Basically, like at that point it still wasn't some big world conquering mission. Itwas just I need to make money and other places than just my day job, because my day job is increasingly unstable by every appearance. And so westarted charging dues January first two thousand and eighteen, and that's when it officiallybecame a business, and I would say the rest is history. But again, to your point, there's been a number of evolutions and changes until today, and today it's a very different thing than it was eight years ago.The one thing I will say that's not different is our values and the talkingpoint that I'm using recently, which I believe to be honest. In aworld where you work at a software business, for software business the technology or linesof code and that's the tech. We're not a software business, youknow, I would call us a tech enabled services business, where I'd callit something, but for us the technology are our values, and I don'tmean that just to be cheeky, I mean that to be sincere. Thething that has been consistent since two thousand and thirteen and fourteen is really thespirit of what we're trying to do, which is we're trying. We're not. It's not community for its own sake. It's community to help and support specifichuman beings achieve their career objectives, to help people get where they wantto go in their life and those and I can articulate in greater detail thespecific values, but those values have been the same and they are still thesame and it's what's amazing is that you know, today, with five thousandmembers, when people join pavilion used to be reve ne collective. They alwayscomment on how helpful and supportive all the other members are. And if youthink about me as a person that is not personally greeting every single person thatjoins the community, I am not personally doing all of the different activities thatthe team of now thirty five people is doing. What is enabling the scale, because we've gone from twenty people a few years ago to five thousand people, and the thing that is enabling the scale is the way that we teachpeople to behave to each other as a consequence of being a member, andthat is it's not even our secret sauce, because I'm stating it publicly. It'sjust the thing that I do feel is hard to to copy. Ithink it's hard to compete against those specific values because we believe them with somuch transparency, incredibility and often to city. Yeah, and I always think forbusinesses like this, is always a reason for like this being successful correlatedto who started the business. And even...

...when I look at a bunch ofthe sales communities with me and sales hacker and Pete Kauz Angie in modern salespros who just completely geeks out about all things sales and sales technology and metricsand things like that, and you, you're superpower or thing that made youkind of specialness regard as you were for time Tech Cro in New York City, so arguably like one of the go to people who has been around theblock in tech as a sales leader. And you know, I remember alot of conversations in you know, fo fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, evenseventeen, where people are like well, you know, who should I talkto about negotiating my comp for this company? Or you know I'm going to startdoing consulting, who should I talk to or or whatever what have you. You were super well network, but you were also well versed in alot of these things. That people needed for their careers, not just fortheir jobs. And when you start to see now in this, you know, remote world that we're in, this kind of like transient world that we'rein, where people work for startups for two or three years at milestones andthen, you know, especially as a sales leader and marketing leader whatnot,they get turned out for the person that could take it from the next stageand you kind of hand up a ton off. You have to make surethat you're you know, you're able to negotiate the right things in your packageswhen you go to work for a company and and you've been a champion forexecutives versus, you know, founders or VC's, and I think that reallykind of helped solidify the brand but also made it super authentic from the founderof the community and you essentially scaled yourself. Instead of doing cro classes or whatnot, or cro like mentoring or whatnot, you now have classes for it,instead of giving people one off advice or introducing them one by one,you've created a community for it and you've kind of figured out a way toscale yourself over the different phases of the business and especially when it went fromfrom dinners that were all in person, then into the you know part inperson, part on slack, then covid hit. Everything seamlessly translated to onlineand I think that's when, you know, the business came out with the youknow cro school and things like that. So it's been really interesting to watchit, but it's also been really interesting to look at it from,you know, my perspective, having seen it really from the very beginning,and say, well, there are very few people can start this from scratch, but Sam makes total sense and you did a good job on it.I think it was ranks. Yeah, yeah, thank you. Yeah,and I I guess. Yeah, I mean to the point of, like, like you said, in many ways the joke that I make to mywife is, you know, pavilion is Sam as a service. It's allof the things that I believe trying to to be placed into a recurring revenuebusiness, which, Joe, course, I'm also a huge believer in,and I think that the difference that I see is one difference is that Ialways say, you know, certain communities. I've even heard you know, Petetalk about this, like elevating the profession of sales, elevating the professionof Rev ops and for me that that wasn't why I did this. Thisisn't, for me, about elevating a specific profession. It's about helping individualhuman beings, and that's why, from the beginning, it was always it'snot about like a theoretical construct of what a salesperson might be. It's thatthis person is a VP of sales and they are negotiating a new job,or they are in their job and they need to know how to do territorydesign or they need to know how to build out a partner strategy. Let'sspecifically help this person so that they can be better in their job, sothat they can reduce the rest that they get fired or find a better jobor just sleep better at night. And that's that's the thing that gets meout of bed in the morning. Is Not, again, it's not communityfor its own sake, because the word gets tossed around so much these days. There's a point to its. I call it community powered products and services, and the products and services are all...

...designed with a very specific goal inmind, which is to help you, as a human being, get whereyou want to go in your life. Yeah, and you also had areally good story and created a movement. I think you had. You hada you or the protagonist in the antagonist was the founders, who could kickyou added any second and have no risk whatsoever and got the majority of theequity, or the VC's who own the majority of the company. Or whatabout the executive who put their kind of life and career on the line togo work for a company, only to be, you know, fired innine months or something like that because the VC's changed, you know, theiraggressive goals or something, and I think a lot of people resonated with thatstory, like wow, I need to do a better job of building mypackages when I go to companies or calling the shots. I am an asset. You really created a movement, I think, with, you know,the CMOS and the crows at least the start, and now it's it's greatto see you going through not only those three tiers but into the different functionsacross the board. What do you call it? Is Is it non coderolls? Do you have like a name for those functions? I don't know. I mean for me, we're going to go into every function where thereare community leaders that want to build community in support of people achieving their careergoals. So we're going to have a product pavilion, we're going to havean engineering pavilion, we're going to have a CEO Pavilion, and you're rightthat, you know, that's part of the reason why we're changing the name, by the way, is because, besides the obvious fact that there's tenmillion things called blank collective and you know, many of our competitors, you know, just call they just like put a slight modification on then a penndcollective to, you know, whatever the name is. But beyond that,the exactly your point, Max. That sort of speaks to part of theevolution, which is that I did start off in kind of like this USversus them mentality and the concept of a collective. For me, it doesn'tnecessarily evoke confrontation or conflict, but it kind of does, you know,it evokes in celerity in a way. It's like us against them, thisit's this group of people against something. Perhaps it's against the outside world,and I've shifted personally and become, hopefully, you know, I would imagine,less antagonistic, and so now it's it's less about like there being anenemy. I don't think founders or investors are really any function is the antagonist. I think the brand is about personal actualization. You know, it's abouthelping whoever you are, achieve whatever you're trying to achieve and making sure thatyou have as many resources as possible to get there. I do think,to your point, though, that you know we're launching a will launch aCEO pavilion that will sit alongside our sales pavilion, our market appell it.Frankly, one of the reasons is because so many revenue collective members from theold days are now CEOS, including me, and I can rattle off a longlist of others. But the point isn't that CEOS are the antagonist inthis equation. The real point is that there are no antagonists and that everybody'sgoing to be treated equally and that they may not be the antagonist, butthey're also not the protagonist. This is not a story built around founders orbuilt around investors. It's built around all of us as human beings coming togetherand really that we're coming together. The point of pavilion is that we're comingtogether because we believe in the essence of a certain way of doing business,and that way of doing business is not transactional. The whole point of whatwe're trying to do and the reason that we think there can be multiple pavilionsis because the core concept that was revenue collective isn't about US versus them.It's about this idea that if you help other people and you have a longterm view on what that means, and you don't, you don't treat themas transactually you give before you get. You look to support, which somany other communities are built around. Right, many, many communities are built onthe same concept, which is why we think that they're great potential partnersfor US or potential parts of pavilion.

But the core concept is like hey, we can all go further by helping and supporting each other than we canalone, and whatever that means in that moment is what it means. Butwe all agree that as a member of this community, this association, we'regoing to be responsive to each other, we're not going to spam or soliciteach other and we're going to help each other and support each other and whateverway we can, as long as it's not directly competitive, and most ofthe time it's not. And so that's the foundational lynchpin that undergirds all ofthe different things that we're building is that basic idea, and that idea canagain. It's not specific to any function and it doesn't have an antagonist.It only has a protagonist in the protagonist is you as a human being.And so the world that we envision, the world I envision, increasingly rightbecause, to your point, like this is an evolution for me person onlyas well. It's not about like VC's being the bad guys or girls orCEO's being bad people. Nobody's definitionally a bad person. We're all going toagree within this community, within as members of Pavilion, and I can talkabout like how the business is specifically designed to enable that, but we're allgoing to agree that like this is the way that we believe success is possible. Is Not just by being cut throat and mercenary and zero sum, it'sby helping and supporting other people as much as we can and that in sodoing we can further our own personal professional objectives. So yeah, and Iwant to learn more about the long term vision and the Road Map, butI I like your sentiment there around this is more to over time and Ithink all communities kind of, or in general, movements start as maybe onething and over time move into another. I could be look at sales forus. I mean their whole like rally cry was no software, and thatwas fifteen years ago, right. So like we're okay, we'll get it. We're passed off where everybody knows the cloud is now. And so youknow, they have, they've probably gone through three or four iterations, maybeeven more on that, especially as they've acquire acquired companies over the past fifteen, twenty years since they've you know, started, launched one, public etc. Etc. So it's interesting to see, you know, again from my pointof view, the phases of revenue, collective and now pavilion tell us whereit's going. What's the long term vision for the organization? So thelong term vision is sort of what I just mentioned, which is that andagain this is me and like how always on some soapbox yere's ago. It'slike making sure everybody gets severance because I've been fired so many times. Butso this soapbox is about like everybody's experience of the Internet. So we've allbeen trained to experience the Internet a specific way and that is that and I'monly parroting, you know, the social dilemma or any anybody's main criticism of, you know, platforms like facebook. But the bottom line is that weexperience the Internet as basically free, and an exchange for being free, ourinformation and our behavior is sold to third parties within the professional world. Theway that that works is that our information is often sold to recruiters, toSDRs and prospectors and to other advertisers that want to sell it stuff. And, as a consequence, like the way that certain platforms evolved, becomes aboutgetting as much audience engagement as possible, and that's because it's a feature,not a bug, right, like the point of like getting engagement on postsand making sure that they are surfaced high in the feed and that you getas many likes as you can and you have to, you know, getas many comments as you can and to incite conflict and debate. That's afeature, not a bug, of the way that these things are designed,because advertising, fundamentally, advertising is the business and so to make that businesswork, you you just many people as possible. There's a different world that'spossible on my opinion, and that's a world where it challenges norms. Soone of the norms is that, like every platform should be free. Soour platform, of course, is not free. Right. So the worldthat I envision is a world that is not eight hundred million people or abillion people or five billion people all on one platform. It might be onlya million people, or two million people or ten million people. So afraction of these the largest kind of consumer social platforms that are out there.But everybody on these platforms will have done...

...something different because they will be payingand as a consequence of them paying, they will be customers of this platform, which is pavilion, and as a consequence of being a customer and notjust audience or a user, they will experience a different level of service andengagement then they really have ever experienced around the concept of helping them achieve theirprofessional goals. Right. So the world that I envision is, let's sayit's a million people and we're only at five thousand today, so there's along way to go, all of whom are paying pavilion members. As aconsequence of paying, we can build stuff for them that other people can't build. There will be, you know, right now every pavilion member gets awelcome call the minute that they sign up from a human being that welcomes themto the community and walks them through how to use it. Every member that'son an annual plan gets a welcome box with a great book by Latiny Conaand a thermis and a handwritten note from me. And that's just the beginningof all the things that we want to do for people. We have acareer services team that helps people find jobs and helps people find talent. Wehave all of the schools that I mentioned at the outset that you talked aboutthere all included a membership. All of that is a function of the factthat people are paying. So we take the money that people pay to dois and we reinvest it back into tools and services that they can use tohelp them get where they want to go. And people are going to are notused to this, because what we're used to is like something like facebook, where like there's no number to call if you have a problem with facebook, like there's there's no help desk. They don't you're not the customer,right, you're the user. So the core will be to treat as manypeople as want to join and are qualified to join, as customers and treatthem amazingly well. And then the second part of it is those values thatI talked about. So this is a world where, Hey, we wantyour money. You know, we do want you to be a paying customer, but also all of the people that are members of this thing, thispavilion, this big Global Pavilion, will all have agreed to abide by ourcode of conduct, and that code of conduct, as I mentioned, isbasically three important tenants. The first is that you believe that in order toget something, you need to give something first, that the world is betterwhen we all believe in Karma, when we all invest in goodness and supportand pat and compassion and in helping other people, and that we don't immediatelysend them a bill when we help them. That this is not this is nottransactional relationship building. This is long term investments in helping and supporting otherpeople, because it'll make you feel good as a human being and because itwill redound to you in the form of success. It'll just possibly take placeover a longer period of time than closing the deal right away. So thefirst most important tenant of all of these people is that we give before weget. The second is that, as a consequence of that, you know, this great power that we're all going to be good to each other.Means that we're not going to spam each other. Right. We're not goingto scrape the network and then give it to, you know, a salesteam or recruiting team and pound people with emails as a function of their membershipand pavilion. There are other places where that happens and that's the business modeland those places are awesome, but that's not what we're going to do.We're not going to use our membership as a means of directly transactionally creating newsales opportunities and selling to people. We're going to sell to people in thelong term by being helpful and supportive and establishing ourselves as experts and as asa consequence of doing that, we will end up doing more business for ourcompanies. So the second rule is no, no direct solicitation, no unwanted selling. And the third is, as a consequence of all that, becausewe've agreed to that, you do have to be responsive, that it meanssomething when another pavilion member reaches out to you, and so those three valuesall baked into the community in addition to the products and services that we build, mean that there's a different world that's possible, a different world where workis done differently, where, yes, it's not eight hundred million people,but a million people still a lot of people. And so in New York, you know, we've got close to a thousand members now that are membersjust in sales and marketing and cus. So let's say it's five thousand people. It's Tenzero people. So you know, Max, that anywhere you go,you're in Austin, you're in Seattle, you're in New York, you're inBangladesh, you're in Dublin, it doesn't matter. You're in Stockholm,you're in Singapore, you're in Sydney, Australia, you're in Tokyo, whereveryou put your feet down, there's a... of people, all of whomhave put their hands in and said we're going to help you, we're goingto support you, just let us know if you need anything. So theminute that you land in a new city, like you just move to Austin,you've got a baked in group of two thousand, Threezero people that arewilling to help you find talent willing to help you find a job, willingto help you find office space and instant ability to push go on a buttonand get all of the support that you need. And that's just the membership, in addition to the infrastructure and resources that we are building at HQ tomake sure that you get the training you need, the certification you need,the long term opportunities that you need, etc. So The big vision isa million people all over the world working to support each other, believing that, you know, cutthroat business is not the only way to succeed and thatthere's a way to succeed by helping other people and by being a good person. That's amazing. I mean it's it's a lot to do, as alot of it is a lot to do, and my follow up question for youwas like, I guess what the Hell they need twenty five million dollarsfor? But it does seem like that is a capital intensive and pretty largevision. But but it all serious. Miss Revenue Collective. Now pavilion wasa profitable business growing quickly. Twenty five million is a large number. Youknow you've been notoriously kind of against raising money. So this plan just comeout of an off site one day and you were like, Holy Shit,we actually need some cash to do this, or kind of what was the inferousfor the race, the impetus for the Rais was? I mean,we weren't looking to your point. You know, we were profitable. Wegrew, you know, in two thousand and twenty we grew membership. We'reabout, I don't know, twelve hundred, thirteen hundred people. At the beginningof two thousand and twenty we were three thousand, seve hundred and fifty. At the end we're five thousand now. So we've been growing at essentially whatI would which would or venture rates. So we are, I would saywe are candidate for it's been so you think about our business, ifyou if you think that only software businesses are things that can scale, thenyou wouldn't wear not a software business. And if you think that actually,because of no code and because of all the tools that are available, thatmany, many businesses now have the profile of a software business, even ifthey are not explicitly a software business, then maybe you're interested. So elephantreached out to me. I've been in touch with them over the past coupleof years because I take frankly, every call and it was just I woulddo a deal, we would do a deal if it were under the rightterms. But also, to your point, it was sort of like the catalystfor me to think bigger about what might be possible. And of coursewe'd never contemplated acquisitions before. We never contemplated that, and that's when itwas sort of like everything kind of happened at once, in the sense thatthey started talking about possibly investing and then my brain opened up to this idea, like this vision that I just described to you. As I said,those values that I that I talked about are not they're not so specific tome and to pavilion. They're actually pretty common across the people that tend tostart communities, and the problem with many something that problem. It just dependswhat you want from them. But but the reality of many communities, especiallyones that are free, is that it's hard to ascribe enterprise value to thembecause they don't have revenue, or the only revenue of the you have asponsorship refinue. So there's all these communities out there that could potentially be veryvaluable if perhaps they were part of something bigger, and if that bigger thingshare the values that they had when they started their community, and so thatwas sort of like a light bulb over my head in the middle of thesefundraising conversations of wow, there's an opportunity to grow inorganically as well as organically, that there are lots of different people, community leaders, people that have started, you know, people like, although we haven't approached you know,Pete, but like people like me and you and Pete Kazanjie, all ofwhom might want, frankly, both some cash money but also some a currency, meaning equity in a global entity that...

...might be worth something, where theycould be greater than the some, you know, when the whole is greaterthan the some of its parts, where all these community leaders, working undera common umbrella, have an opportunity to build something that is more meaningful perhapsthan just doing it on their own. Now, not everybody is going towant to do that. Many people are going to want to be, toremain independent, and that's totally cool and awesome. And many people are goingto think that their community is worth a hundred million dollars when, you know, there's a point of disagreement about that, and that's totally cool too. Butthere's, I would imagine, a large group of people that are saying, you know, I'd love to keep doing this, I want to dothis, but I want to do it with some infrastructure. I want mypeople to get a welcome call when they sign up and I want my peopleto get a welcome box in the mail and I want my people to geta school that they can take that's related to the topic. So, forexample, one of my friends that's a member email may year ago and islike, Hey, you know, obviously cannabis is a huge and growing industryall over the world, especially in every state where it's legal. So there'sthis big burgeoning group of entrepreneurs and he said I want to you know,should I start the cannabis collective? I said sure, do whatever you want. Well, now, a year later, I can say, hey, whydon't you start the cannabis pavilion and why don't you create a pavilion,which is basically our word for a subcommunity, and we can give you all theinfrastructure you need. You can still be the leader of that pavilion.If you're doing it to make money, it's probably not the best way tomake quote unquote, money, but it is a way to have infrastructure aroundyou that you can support, that can support you, and you can stillbe the leader of the community. You can be the person at the center, you can be the person that connects other people and, as a consequence, maybe has influence and power. Maybe you'll get visibility on the good jobsand of course you'll promote wherever you're working at the time. And this personworks at at a cannabis company, of course. So equality or or cashfrom you for them? Yeah, it's both. Yeah, so there isstill some not that okay. So you didn't waste any time, you know, it was putting this money to work. Tell us about the two communities you'vealready acquired. Is there any more information you can give us in thispodcast about the two that you mentioned earlier? Yeah, they're just their Finna.I mean we, you know, we'RE BUILDING OUT OUR FINANCE PAVILION.We had this thing called operations collective. You know, to be completely honest, it was not you know, there was a sense of there's a senseof vibersy vibrancy within revenue collective that wasn't present in operations collective and we wanted, and we realize we needed people that were leaders of finance communities and operationscommunities in order to inject it with some life. And so we approached thiscommunity called finnops, which is a couple hundred people. It's run by thesetwo guys, Brian Seplicki and Peter Nest Bit, and again, the thepitch that I made just now resonated. It was yeah, we want that, we want we don't have time to do this. We'd to make thiseverything it could be. We constantly are debating whether we should quit our jobsand do it full time. We decided that we're going to keep our jobs. It would be really nice to make sure that this thing became something morethan just what it is right now, and so we did that. Andthen we wanted to you know, we have an aspiration of kind of likenot cradle to grave, but from your first day of work as a professionalto the day that you retire. You know, we aspire to have acommunity for you, and we didn't have one for people early in their careersand, of course, a bunch of revenue collective members, which is howit all came to beast head started stur defenders about a year ago. Itwas Kyle Coleman and Josh Roth and nicha peric and Nikki Ivy and Tom Bakard. Those are the five. so we approached them and I think they'd beenwaiting for me to approach them. So they were very enthusiastic. So thatwas that was amazing. And there are other conversations I can't, you know, share right now, but yeah, I mean we're we're in lots ofdifferent conversations because there's lots of people out there that want to or are leadinggroups of people. They just want more support and help to do it.Love it. Yeah, and you know, GTM fun came in on this round. I think it was a very fair and reasonable valuation. I thinkvery, very great for both sides. Honestly, I think there's a lotof upside for us as an investor.

I think the valuation was definitely atestament to the work that you've done to date in quite frankly, a shortperiod of time, Getting pavilion to where it is now. You know,know a lot of your employees and team members who you know I think worldof, and I personally have been involved in building businesses in this space fora long time. Between you to me, which is, you know, FullEd Tech on that education marketplace, and sales hacker, which was acommunity for B Tobase, Beb salespeople with about a hundred, seventy thousand members, and that's a free community. You know, I really believe that thisis the future of kind of new age education communities, cohorts, real lifeskills. I'm investor personally in on deck and Maven and now we're in pavilion. So I think there's just so much opportunity right now to really learn somelife skills. Developed networks. It's not location dependent anymore and you've really createdsomething. I think I've said this before on while we were on we didour short run on clubhouse shortly week, eight week run their off Broadway.Your company is your community for your job, but this is your community for yourcareer and sometimes you got to go outside of your job and outside ofthat community to get the things that you need to look out for yourself andlook out for your family, look out for your career, what's best foryou. So having something like pavilion as a it's an amazing resource and hasbeen amazing resource and I'm sure the NPS is off the charts. But youknow, just from speaking to people who are in it with myself, obviously, outreach has been a long time sponsor and proud supporters. So we're pumpedfor you. This is incredible and I want to end end here with aquick lightning around actionable takeaways. Built a five thousand person paid community, let'ssay in three years time, or so four years. Give me, likethe top one to three things you must do and like the top one tothree things you definitely shouldn't do when building a community and a business like therevenue collective. And now, wow, okay, actionable takeaway. So I'lltry to be high level and medium level or and I don't know if theseare the top these are just the things that are coming to mind. Thefirst is I think you should, I believe, in paid communities versus freecommunities, because this is up to you, listener, whatever you want to do, and lots of people have built free community. So I am being, you know, nonconventional by saying that. And the reason I believe in paidcommunities is because I believe that you need to overinvest in member success,and so one of the points that we pride ourselves on is our member successteam is always going to be the biggest team at the company and it's youknow, we have thirty five people and well over a third of them arefact that. You know, it's like our are are on the member successteam and we expect that to always be the case because we always want toamaze and delight our customers who are our members. I don't know if that'ssuper actionable. Here's something super actionable. The problem with the free version ofslack is that you can't change people's names and I'm a big believer in kindof hygiene that communities need to be a well tended garden. They don't theyshouldn't be overgrown, and part of the way that you keep them well tendedas by having naming conventions for how People's Names Appear in slack if you're usingslack, or on a different platform, if you're using a different platform.So we upgraded to the paid version of slack at the very beginning because Iwanted to change how people's names look so that you couldn't have like Philly,Philly Joe One thousand seven hundred and ninety two next to Sam Jacobs NYC.So everybody has their first and last name and their city affiliation. But it'sconsistent and it's well organized and I think that gives the appearance of order,which helps because it gives people comfort and engaging. Knowing that sort of there'sa sense that the thing is being tended... in terms of you know whatyou shouldn't do. I mean again, like I I don't know. II think you shouldn't start a community if you don't know why you're starting acommunity or if the point of it is that you feel like you need tobe at the center of a group of people and you don't have the valuesthat motivate you. Beyond that, I trying to think, as I say, any bone head errors you made along the way that we were like,I'll damn it him. I don't know. I wish I could. I do. It is not because I'm egotistical, it's because I'm like one of ourcore values is this thing listen closely at quickly. The point is likerapid iteration and response to customer feedback. So, like, I'm I'm surewe made a ton of errors. I mean obviously the platform is totally differentthan what we do today, but I don't view any of the other Iwas making. At every point I was making the best decision I had giventhe information that I had. The biggest error. I mean, again,these are like so so high level. Is So perhaps be annoying, butI think most people, you know, have this thing called the decision coefficient, which is basically a math problem. Of person makes two decisions an hourbut is only correct two thirds of the time, so wrong often. Andthere's another person that makes one decision an hour but is right most of thetime, ninety percent accuracy right. And what you do when you compare thosepeople as you realize that the person that's wrong one third of the time alot is correct one point four times per hour, and the other person's correctpoint nine times per hour, which means that the person that's wrong more oftenis correct fifty percent more often. The point of all of that is thatone of the things that you can do is take too long to make decisionsand at you know, like the way that you win? I think it'sby being highly iterative and by understanding that most of the time you're not goingto make a decision that you can't turn back. That the subject line ofthe email. The way that you've designed. Whatever the process is. The processcan change to software can be rewritten and it's and speed helps you covermore ground so that you can move more quickly. So that's one thing thatI think. Yeah, they have a I think it's something an Amazon thatthey talk about where it's like revolving door decisions where two way word and oneway door. It's like, if this decision could be reversed easily, thenlet's make it quickly. If this decision is a one way door and wecan't reverse it, then we can take time on it. Yeah, andunderstanding which one is which so you can move quickly on the ones that youcan reverse and slower on the ones that can't. Yeah, it's a greatit's a great way of thinking about it. I think that anecdote is good takeaway. Cool, Sam Max, so much for coming on yourself. Thankyou for having me on my show. Exactly. We've had you as thehost of the Sales Haggerp podcast for how many years now is but like twoand a half or three years? Two Thousand and eighteen, three years,lawy, plus years promised to Tuesday. Yeah, I mean then you havethe fundamental Fridays and and and your music, I think, is the lead in. So your your finger prints all over it. But it's been funto watch. Now Fun to be a part of through the GTM fun.You know, we have our relationship to sales hacker, to or big sponsorthrough at each as well. So now we're investing in digital ponies. Weare, we're part of the same stable. No, stable, no fun.Yeah, follow us on zed dot run, not stay. Will KnowFun. We're doing NPT hords racing, I guess. Now I don't knowwhat this world is coming to, but take my money. Here you go. You and me are involved in fifteen different business ventures. Yeah, we'reinvestors in GTM fun, GTMS, investors in us, you know, fifteendifferent side deals. It's great. I've you know, we've been very successfuldoing business together, Max, so I'm always happy to do it, Ithink. And the great thing is the entities involved of all been very successfulbecause of it too. So I think you know, it's not just aselfless thing. We are. It's been fun, it's been fruitful, enjoyableand looking forward to a lot more of it. And congratulations on all theannouncements. If you if you missed it,...

...go back to the beginning of thisepisode, where Sam monologs for five minutes about all the major just pledtogether, including twenty five Million Dollar Fun Rais and some acquisitions and a rebrandingfrom the revenue collective to pavilion. Thank you, Max, thanks for havingme. I'll talk to everybody next time. Hey, everybody, it's SAM's corner. Well, I was the guest this I'm so so I don't knowthat I need a Sam's corner to wrap up all of the things that Ijust said and rambled down about, but I do want to say thank youto sales hacker. I want to say thank you to all of you forlistening and supporting both this podcast and revenue collective over the years. As hopefullyyou just heard, we announced that we are now a company called Pavilion.We closed a twenty five million dollar financing around led by elephant fincher's. Wecrossed five thousand members. We announced a bunch of new schools that are allincluded in membership. We acquire two communities, fin ops and SDR defenders, andmuch, much more to come, and there's probably a few other announcementsthat I'm forgetting, but those are the big ones. So if you wantto learn more about to join PAVILIONCOM. Of course we want to thank oursponsors. Pavilions one of them, so I just told you about them.But also outreach, if you want to learn how outreach does. Outreach whichwas recently valued, I think, over four billion dollars, so a quadcorn, whatever that might say. But the point is that manny and theteam over it, outreach, have done an amazing job. Had to outreachdot ioh for slash on outreach to see what they've got going on. Andfinally, linkedin find new ways to connect with your buyers virtually with linkedin salesnavigator. You can learn more or request a free demo at business dot linkedincomforward slash sales solutions. Thanks for listening, everybody, and thanks again for yoursupport.

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