The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 1 month ago

183: Dear Sales Team, Set Your Own Quotas

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode of the Sales Hacker Podcast, we have Tom Glason , Cofounder & CEO at Scalewise , a platform that provides scale ups with flexible access to world-class revenue expertise. Join us for an insightful conversation on lessons from over 20 years in B2B sales tech and how to support teams and leaders in achieving their professional potential.

What You’ll Learn 

- How to take control of your career by doing due diligence

- Telling your sales team to set their own targets

- The role of autonomy, mastery, and purpose in motivating people

- The biggest mistakes early stage venture-backed companies make

Show Agenda and Timestamps

- About Tom Glason & Scalewise [4:15]

- Mistakes of early stage companies [7:50]

- A deep dive into Tom’s career of leadership [10:06]

- Why you should do due diligence before joining [20:28]

- Should reps set their own targets? Yes [25:51]

- Paying it forward [31:05]

- Sam’s Corner [33:27]

One two one: Three: Three: Everybody atSam Jacobs, welcome to the sales hacker podcast. We are excited to have thisweek's guest on the show. His name is Tom, glass and Tom is a career salesleader and executive based out of London. He is also the CO founder and Cof a company called Scale Wise, which provides coaching resources andfractional support to companies that are going through hyper growth. Hefounded that company with his wife, Karen he's also the founder of theLondon chapter of Pavilion, and he and I have worked together for a long timeand I've developed an incredible amount of respect and it's a greatconversation and really he is. He calls himself a leadership geek and he reallyis he's got frameworks out the Wazoo, as we say in the US, and and really isa student of the game as much as he is a leader himself, and so it's a really,you know, get out your notebook because he drops and not gets left and right.So it's a great conversation. Now before we get there, we want to thinkour sponsors we've got three. The first is out reach out. Ridge has been a longtime sponsor the show were excited to announce their annual series unleashsummit series is back. This year. Theme is the rise of revenue. Innovators jointhe new cohort of leaders who put buyers at the center of their sale.Strategies to drive efficient, predictable growth across the entirerevenue cycle, get more details and save your spot at summit doubt outreached a AO. We're also sponsored by pavilion. Pavilion is the key togetting more out of your career. Our private membership gives you access tothousands of like minded peers, dozens of courses in schools through PavilionUniversity and over one thousand workbooks template scripts and playbooks to accelerate your development. Pavilion members. Listen to these tatsget hired twenty two percent more quickly are paid fourteen percent moreand get promoted. Thirty four percent more rapidly than their peers unlockthe career of your dreams by applying to day at join Paphian and finally,Demos tack. The product emo is make er break for your deal, but tailoring thestory is tous work. DEMOS DACK turns weeks into minutes, so you can delivercustom down those at scale, no more acme in dummy data with Demos, tack,you can edit data in charge with a point and click and show productstories that win deals faster, see how world class sales works, use demosth toaccelerate revenue at demos and now without further ado. Let's listen myconversation with Tom glasson everybody. I Sam Jacobs, before your ears, aregraced with today's episode. This is just a friendly reminder in case you're,looking at buying sales tick this year, because of course, who isn'teverybody's buying sales deck? If you are, you might want to check out saleshackers state of the sales stack report based on responses from over a thousandsales people in revenue professionals. We cover the Roi Impact and adoption ofover forty tools across seven categories like carm data andintelligent sales engagement, and so many more I'll help. You answer thequestion: How can I bring the best tools together for the biggest impacton revenue and I won't help you it'll help you that's what it says. It saysit'll help you, so I apologize for that by the way the report is free, we'renot even asking for your email address, grab the link in the show notes. Wewill let you get back to it thanks so...

...much for listening and get that report.Thank you, hey everybody! It's Sam Jacobs, welcome to the Sales Hackerpodcast today on the show we are excited to welcome Tom Glasson Tom isthe CO founder and CEO of scale wise, a platform that provides scale ups withflexible access to world class revenue expertise he spent over twenty yearsand be Tobe's tech sales with over a decade in senior leadership roles within V C, backed SASS scale. UPS, his focus has been on the journey fromseries a to see and he's held roles such as V, P, F, sales and operationsat Trussel, SPP, sails in marketing at bright, pearl and chief commercialofficer at good Lord, as a qualified coach in the founding member and shareof the London chapter of Pavilion, he has a passion for supporting otherrevenue leaders to achieve their professional potential. Tom Welcome tothe show. Thanks am I'm so delighted to be here, it's been too long, but I'mglad it has been it's been. We first got to. I first met you in London intwo thousand and eighteen. So it's been three years, and this is only the firsttime we've had you on the show, which is a travesty. It is the glad a bithere, we're glad to have you. So I mentioned that you're, the CEO of scalewise, and I want to make sure that people are aware of what scale wise isand what you all do. So, in your words who and what is scale wise yeah. Isuppose I have to start a little bit with the the origin story and how itcame about because, as you mentioned in the intro there, I'm the the Londonchapter head for Pavilion and, I suppose, through building the Londonchapter of Pavilion, I've personally spoken to probably around five hundredrevenue leaders that Eve joined the chapter over the last three years andthen speaking to them. I kind of realized two things, so you know thefirst one was that we have certally some exceptional talent in the groupwhich you expect you know super experienced revenue leaders who I feltcould be really useful to start ups, who paps lacked the right scalingexpertise internally. So I wanted to find a way of unlocking this expertiseto help many more copanies scale in the right way, because there's certainly alot out there that don't do it the right way and really struggle- and Ithink you know, hit some serious bumps in the road, but I also the secondthing I realized was that there were a ton of these revenue leaders who wantedto kind of step off the full time employment hamster wheel and build a, Isuppose, a more flexible portfolio career rather than kind of putting inthese crazy hours and blood, sweat and tears into a single start. Up with youknow, quite frankly, pretty poor job security, and you know we all know howtenuous the roll of our revenue leader is. Now. I think it's in seventeenmonths for a B of sales is the average have retain you. So I saw that thereare all these real experience, revenue leaders who wanted to advise or coachor consult or build a fractional career which gives them more flexibility andless stress than being a full time employed. But I think that part of thechallenge for these revenue leaders is how to take that first step from fulltime. Employment to a portal O career can seem, I think, quite daunting togive up her salary, and you know you've...

...got to go and find enough work andbalance, business, development and contracts and invoicing and paymentsand etc, etc. So so yeah we created scale wise to give startups and scaleups flexible access to world class revenue, expertise to help themaccelerate growth, and that could be anything from you know a few hours amonth of what we call scale coaching from an experienced leader right, theway through to providing them with maybe a fractional leader, such as areally good cm or VP sales who could work in their business for two to threedays. A week and- and you know we take care of things like business,development and contracts and invoicing on behalf of of those scale experts, sothey don't have to worry about that stuff- and it's been, you have to say,is we've only been going eighteen months, but it's just been reallysatisfying to support folks in taking that step out of employment, but wealso have a ton of scale experts so were still full time employed, but theymonetize their expertise by working with our clients alongside their dayjob and they you know they genuinely like sharing their knowledge and beinguseful, but it's also been great helping start ups, you know plug thatthat leadership for expertise gap, so they know they don't make some of thosecostly or avoidable mistakes that are so often made when, when scaling andwe've you know, I would say- We've definitely been able to prevent a fewof those seventeen months casualties and that really really motivates us.And, and when I say US I'm, you know, I really actually pleased that I'mworking finally with my wife, Karen again after meeting at work reallynearly twenty years ago, would you believe it and so she's my co founderKaren, alongside my my good friend and founding London Pavilion Chapter MemberGavin summoner as well, what a great story- and I love that Karen is a Cofounder and your co founder. You mentioned that companies make a bunchof mistakes and that you're helping them avoid a lot of those mistakes.From your advantage point you know in the in the kind of MIA ecosystem. Whatdo you think the biggest mistakes early stage venture back companies make yeah?I mean it's really interesting, Sam. We just commissioned a research report onthat kind of scaling journey between series Amb, and that is a that is atreacherous path. I think it's fair to say, and not many companies make itsuccessfully through that, and you know, there's a bunch of things thathighlighted in the report. You know you Wun't be surprised to hear that youhiring the wrong revenue. Leader is up there. You know, and it's not necessarily thatrevenue leader isn't isn't good, it's timing and it's fit and it's settingthem up for success, and- and I think you know, the report highlighted thetypically an early stage- start up between kind of series Ab or maybe alittle bit further. You know they go through two revenue leaders during thatperiod and that's that's a massive cost. You know waste of time, energy foreveryone involved and it's I think it's a real travesty that that happens. Soyou know that's one of the things that kind of keeps US motivated. How can weprevent that from happening a bit more frequently, but then you, you know asoutside of that you, you can imagine...

...just the whole raft of challenges thatpeople face from you know. How do we build an effective S, T R team an getthem producing predictable pipeline through to how do we build our first SMplay book and and Actually Drive Up, sail and cross Sall and retention andcustomer sat and, and then you know, on the marketing side, we get a ton ofdifferent briefs from a head of marketing that is maybe struggling tokind of scale with the business. You know they're thinking about hiring aSMO, but you know they thinking that they might want to invest in thisindividual, and so you know we really pleased that we can come in and providesome scale coaching. You know real experience. Emo comes in works withthat head of marketing and enables them to level up so ultimately that companycan can keep going for longer with that necessarily hiring externally, and youknow we all know how challenging it is to hire externally in the currentmarket at the moment. So yeah there's some of the things that we help with,but it's yeah across the whole board of all things: Revenue Wow. I mean what aspectrum of o of possible activities and problems and challenges, I'm sureit's incredible to see the full sweep. Let's talk a little bit about yourbackground. You know I mentioned a couple of really impressive positionsover the course of the last twenty years. How D you get into sales tall usa little bit about your career journey and then we can, from there dive intosome lessons, learn but tell us about the origin story of Tom Glasson, yeah.Well, Sam. You know when I, when I look back, I think selling has been in myblood from pretty young age. You know my my earliest memory of doing deals, Isuppose was when I was about eight and I used to collect these football cards,and I had a pretty good knack of trading my unwanted cards for thesweets in the playground, and I think I was pretty successful. Judging by theChubby photos of me around that I won that age. To be honest, but then I gotmy. I spent my first sales job when I turned sixteen. I had heard that adouble blazing window retailer near me was allowing sixteen year olds to makeco calls in a commission only world. So as soon as I had finish school thatsummer, I headed I headed straight down there and I remember being offered ajob on the spot, but being told that you know, if I didn't book at least oneappointment, each shift, then I would be fired and my boss also said thatmost people got fired after their first shift. So it was fair to say that Iwasn't you know. I wasn't feaking too optimistic about the whole thing andand then I was I suppose I was just giving this big British Telecom phonebook like these huge, like paper books and a good old fashioned telephone andtold that I had to work through Sur name, starting with specific letters ofthe the Alpha Bet, and I you know I did what I thought I should do, which islisten to some of the calls of the guy. That seemed to be doing. Okay and- andI thought right- I'm going to I'm going to jump in and you know I'll, neverforget the the crushing feeling of that first hour, when every single person Icalled either yelled at me, or put the phone down or or probably both and butthen something I know something clicked and I actually managed to go: Go aheadand break the record for the most...

...appointments ever booked in there in ashift and on on my first day, and I and I don't think my boss could believe it.I certainly couldn't believe it, but I do remember being loaded as some sortof sales hero and you know I definitely got the bug for for sales and actuallycold calling which I still love. Interestingly, but but after college Iwent you know when all my friends started going to uni. I decided that Iwanted to take a year out and and get back into a sales role. So I ended upjoining this company called British Gas, a big supplier of heating services andenergy in the UK, and- and I was in this huge cool center- competing withlike six hundred raps across the UK and this one big national leader board,where you wet each quarter. The top ten performers would would win a luxuryweekend break in a European city, and I very quickly worked out that this was apure numbers game. You basically needed to make us as many Dales as possible,but ideally at times of the day where you'd obviously get connect, so I usedto get in early to catch. We before they left a work. I'd stay late to getthem after dinner. This was a kind of a better sesellerit and I think my workrade and my kind of ethic basically meant that I did really really well. Iwas, I was only there for a year just that year out that I too, but in inthree of the four quarters I ended up finishing in the top ten and want someincredible trips to Amsterdam and Paris and Rome, and you know it was allfirestar hotels and spending money and all expenses- and I was only eighteenat this point. So so I think this was what then really cemented my my love ofsales and and then after uni. I got my first taste of tectas and this is kindof two thousand and three two thousand and four. But it's it's fair to saythat this did did not go well at all. Like I joined a super early stage.Company founded by this Guy Who's dad had made millions in in property, andyou know he the CEO and managed to raise a million from some high net work.I joined really, as the first sells, hire to try and sell this product, andit was a you know. We were selling mobile phone ticketing software. Thissolution to transport company so essentially we're sending bar codes tomove off. Phones VI the old Ms Messages, which could be scanned again entry, sokind of like a papalist ticketing, but we were. We were battling hard to getproduct market fit yeah. I don't think the mobile technology yo the scanningtechnology. It really got to the point that it need to and we managed tosecure a few pain clients, one of which, oddly very oddly, was the last VegasMonorail. The big issue was that my CEO wasspending money like he was Mark Zacob we were you know. We were travelingfirst class out to Las Vegas. We were staying in the blage, just pissingmoney up the wall. Basically I was in my my early is at this point, so I washaving a great time, but unfortunately, you know the burn rate was too high. Wedidn't find product market fit quickly enough, so ended up flaming out, andyou know, I think it was a huge early lesson for me actually and in how nottoscale a start up and just the...

...importance of of preserving cash andand making sure that born rate is under control, and I I think I also affectedon the fact that I needed you know I needed more, be to be sales experience,so I decided to get into enterprise sales. At this point I joined a bigblue chip systems into greater called Atos origin, where I was selling theselarge kind of seven figure. It services deals, and this is, I suppose, when youknow I had a experience that completely changed my career and my perspective ofleadership. I suppose I ended up working for just the worst boss. Youcould ever imagine you know who completely freund my my mental health.I suppose- and I now won't go into details, but she he was thatstereotypical kind of micromanaging untrusting, you know quite frankly,kind of brutal bully, who just absolutely crushed my confidence and ityou know, impacted my relationships outside it were you know my sleep, mymyself worth it was thinking back, it was. It was just awful and I ended upbeing signed off with stress and then leaving the company after three toughyears. I don't quite know how I lasted three years, but I was just you know. Idon't give up that that easily and and that, as this was a catalyst for me fora period of change and reflection, and, firstly I realized that I never wantedto work in a large corporate again, I just hated all the bullshit and thepolitics, and- and secondly, I reflected on the impact that leaderscan have on people's lives both in the positive also, obviously in the in thenegative and it it suddenly hit me. I wanted to be a leader who has a realpositive impact on live. Someone who you know who could essentially create akind of ripple effect that transcended work that gave people confidence intheir personal lives too. I basically decided that I wanted to be a salesleader that was the complete opposite to the awful one that I'd had and thatyou know I was. I think I was really lucky just to get my break into theworld of Sass when I joined brighter in twenty ten just after they raised theirseries a and that was led by notion, but I spent you know five amazing yearsat bright paters as big P sales and SP global sales and marketing and throughto three rounds of funding- and I think you know, I think it's fair to say thatit was during this period that I just became a leadership keep and my myGeekie, I suppose, was also fueled by by my wife, Karen who pursued a careerin leadership, development too, and and thinking about it. You know, I think Ijust was really determined to be the best leader I could be so. Of course,you know I read tons of books only this year, but I listen to podcast. I readblogs, but but it also worked hard to build connections with with peers, whowere also sales leaders that I could learn from and it was it was theseconnections actually to people like Pe Crosbie, who I know you had on thepodcast last year that I just gained. I just gained a massive amount from youknow they offered. You know safe space, to talk openly about the challenges Iwas facing, my well. There was always loads and but also to share bestpractices, and so I suppose I felt like...

I wanted more sells leaders to benefitfrom the value that I was getting, and I decided that I, you know wanted tostart building a community in London that was focused on helping each otherbecome better leaders which would then you know hopefully have that rippleeffect on those leaders. Teams and, ultimately you know the startop systemin London as well then, and it was worst. I was having these thoughts thatI I stumbled across. Actually, the soul, hacker podcast toasted by none otherthan the founder of a community call the New York revenue collective andthen, when I looked into what it was, what it was like the collective itappeared to be exactly you know what I was hoping to build in in London. So,as you know, a little every three years ago, you know I sent you a speculativelinking message asking if I could pick your brains about New York revenuecollective. A few weeks later, you were in London, we met for lunch and youknow it's just clear that we we both had the same vision and I think, adeeply held belief about how useful leaders could be to one another andpretty soon after that and now London became the second chapter of avarsion.You know what a yeah, what did you ney? It's been over the last three years,Sam. I think you had like fourteen, maybe fifty members in New York, when Ireached out to you it was, I was pretty much, I think, an email group and theoccasional dinner, and you know now we have a just it's incredible to see.We've got like five thousand members globally in just such a incrediblemembership, offering you know, terly, odd events, each week, career services,structured learning, programs, mentoring, resources and I'm sure, abunch of other things that I haven't mentioned that you know I just feelproud, really an honor to have been able to play a small role in the globalexpansion of a arse, which of course, we all know as pavilion now, and youknow I have a huge amount to be grateful for, as I really don't think Iwould have found it scale wise if it wasn't for pavilion, so yeah thanksthanks against them. Well, thank you Tom. It's been an incrediblepartnership and and you've had much more than a small roll. You've had amassive role in the growth that we've seen over the last couple of years. Youmentioned a couple of really personnal stories about. You know badbosses and good bosses and what spurred you to to really become a leadershipgeek when you think about the biggest lessons learn from your time at start.UPS, one of the things that you've mentioned to me in the past is howimportant due diligence is on the company talk a little bit about youknow. Obviously, you've had some good experiences in bad experiences, buttalk a little bit about why it's so important and then maybe some insightson you know what kind of methodologies or questions you know. What is the bestway to do? Do Diligence on a company before you join in your opinion, yeah-and this is this- is so so important that you know when you, when you'rejoining at series, a stage which is what I was typically doing. You knowyou accept that there's an element of risk around things like product, market,fear and scalability, but but boy I've been I've been involved in someinteresting ones, and I know I certainly wish I'd done more DD with acouple of companies that joined. Although there you know there wasprobably one that I thought, I'd really got the DD right and it ended up beinga disaster to so you know I won't. I won't obviously mention specificcompany names, of course, but you know...

I'll give you a few examples of some ofthe situations I've. I found myself in I'm sure I'm sure you're fun ofslightly amusing. Perhaps- and you know one one company- I joined a just raisedtheir series- a you know, from a really good t one. You know European VC wasgetting some great traction. I'd done, client references and spoken at lengthwith team members. The VC had even reviewed the board Dick from the lastcouple of board meetings I gained at to s to their cram, so I'd kind of gone totown on it. But you know it seemed like a great opportunity until until sixmonths, since the role when it just became clear that the two co founderswere trying to kick each other out the business there was there. Was thisserious tension between them and it was, I suppose it was just paralyzing thecompanies they just. They couldn't agree on anything and, as one was theCO as well, that was just playing habit with the road map and getting productout of the door and meeting customer expectation. So it was a. It was a bitof a NIA anyway. I ended up getting caught in the middle of these two anddecided to raise the flag to the investors, and it was clear it wasclear. It was going to get messy, so I exited and then the Co left a fewmonths later. I was only there for probably a year, but the the crazything about this one is as it relates to DD is that I'd? Actually I'veactually met them together. So the two CO founders- I've met for drinks, acouple of times in the interview process and they seemed to get onamazingly well, but it was. It was obviously all the big act in hind sightand- and what I probably fail to do, though, which I should have done, isback channel or character reference. At least one of the founders is, I think,that would have definitely dug up some some red flags. So a big lesson on thisone for me is: Do Your back channel references folks, if you, if you canreally really import to do and then another company, I joined a series, aseemed to have no incredible investor support. You know just an insane growthrate. The UNI on Omics, the business were pretty shit to be honest, but theCEO was convinced that this was all the langry. U Know that we needed to beaggressively taking market share, they were, you know, should be blitsensthey're, also in the middle of a re platforming that promised to kind offix a bunch of the issues with the Unit Economic Sumber anywhere. I was tossedto to come in, as we PL scale the sales team from ten to forty reps within ninemonths, which of course I went ahead and did only to find that the the replatforming was a was just a complete disaster and the series B investors hadgone cold and this this triggered actually multiple exits on theleadership team, including the CEO and and I was left actually to restructurethe business, reducing head count by thirty percent and then kicking off asearch for a new co as well- and you know, thankfully we you know, we foundan amazing new co who joined the business and is doing really well now,but but boy that was a tough gig restructuring. That way, and my big, Isuppose my big lesson here is just never doing a company. That's threeplatforming I've since found out that this really ends well. I've had a lotof stories from other people, but I also think there's a lesson about litscaling. Er To you know for all of...

...nored, Hoffman's evangelism. You know,I believe, there's a very small minority of companies that can pullthis off effectively or should even attempt to do it, and I certainly don'tthink you should be attempting it with European investors. Personally, I thinkyou need very good us investors with deep pockets and that kind of mindsetand then my final story is a rather tragic one which actually can't go intotoo much detail about, but it it culminated in the fondaco exiting thebusiness within my first twelve month again. I then had to leave a smallrestructure and help find another CEO and, and- and I I know what listenersare probably thinking like Tom Jones- a start up and then found his leavewithin within twelve months there. The common denominator here is Tom, but butI can you know, I can hand on heart say that you know I wasn't lovyng for anyof these exits, its all. In fact, I've always actually gotten really well withthe the COS I've worked for, but the big lesson here for me and for others,is that doing effective dd before you join a company, it's just so soimportant, I believe, that's kind of regardless of what role you're going into do, but even more so, if you're, taking a leadership roll. I do countmyself actually very, very lucky to have never been fired from a job, but I know countless revenue, leaderswho have been fired and that's not because their crap at being a revenueto this, the certainly not, but because they joined a company that just wasn'ta fit for them or perhaps didn't even need them and and good did. I thinkcans help to uncover that stuff. I love that and yeah you're talking to one.That's, that's certainly been fired. I've been fired more than I haven'tbeen fired, so maybe maybe together were the so many out. That's not so one lastquestion before before we go to some of your influences. I just think this isreally interesting. You know we ask a question in the briefing what'ssomething of unique or controversial perspective on, and you say: Don't settop down targets for your reps. let them set their own targets. Walkthrough. That is a controversial perspective, walk through how the workswalk through how that connects to forecasting for the business at large,and you just love to hear a perspective on that yeah for sure. So you know Ipersonally, I think we have a duty to our teams really to recognize whatmotivates each individual in and to tap into into this, rather than usingtargets as a kind of blunt instrument to drive performance and and youtargets by their very nature. You know their top down they're directive andthe problem with this is that as humans, we, you know when we have somethingimposed on us. It takes away our autonomy and you know: There's beentons of research over the years on the positive impact of autonomy in theworkplace. I mean damping great book, drive references, it is you know one ofthe three things you know when in Toley master and purpose that that reallydrives happiness at work and an engagement but but they all say,there's been research done. I think it was burning in business school a coupleof years ago. You know twenty thousand workers. You know it was show thatthere was a direct correlation between high levels of autonomy and jobsatisfaction and well being- and you...

...know, we know from things like Gallopand their research- an employee engagement that they're happier peopleare, you know the more productive they're going to be as well. So youknow, autonomy can obviously apply in different ways, and that can be makingdecisions. It can be contributing ideas or you know, having a responsibilityand limited supervision, and you know people that want to explore this topicfurther. I would definitely recommend that the book by David Marquet, whichis called turn the ship around- It's just an exceptional book, about how weturned this worst performing some marine around by by basically breakingthe common mold of the kind of leader follower and really giving autonomy andand letting other people lead. But essentially we need to take. I think,the time to understand what motivates each person we need to create a safespace where reps feel comfortable talking about what their personaldrivers and intrinsic motivators are, and I think it's, this psychologicalsafety, which is probably the kind of critical first step in building uptrust, to discuss things like values and wanton desires. And then you knowonce we've got that psychological safety. I think you're, then in aposition to have very open and frank conversations about what is required intheir role. But, more importantly, you know what are they looking to achieveand why you know what are their drivers? Why have they come? What are theylooking to achieve this year next year, three years, and I think it's throughthese very open, transparent conversations that you can start toreally tap into people's internal intrinsic motivations? And that mightbe you know for some people that might be about being the best in the teambrother as it could be about owning enough money to afford a family holidayor something. But we then essentially work with them to build their own plan,their own metrics, their own goals and inputs and outputs based on theirspecific, wants and needs, and not ours. And and then you know we become as aleader. We become the their coach or their accountability partner, and youwere there to support and challenge and question and you know, hold the mirrorup sometimes, but I think this maintains trust and a safe space thanto talk openly about performance in the context of roll expectations. Becausedon't get me wrong, these expectations are important, but I think they can beshared in a transparent way with out undercurrents of threat or fear. And soI can take give you a very real story of this, I suppose in a roll where youknow, I took away top down targets in my last week. Piece sells well, and-and you know it was- it was a difficult world because the team, the motivationwasn't great, the culture was not quite right and they were. They were sick ofthe targets kind of going up kind of quarter on quarter because it was. Itwas a strange environment before I turned up and and so what we did, wetook them away and we adopted this approach that I just talked about. Wemade it very clear what what the company needs, but we said look. Thisis your. This is your role. This is, you know your goal, your drivers, youset them, and- and you know it took US probably a couple of months- maybethree months- to kind of really embed...

...this thinking, but then the followingquarter, productivity increased. Finally, thirty percent and it wasphenomen an then it happened again- the next quarter, not by the same level,but you know, but it was a real shift in terms of productivity. You know- andit does there's some factors that you know definitely contribute to thatsuccess. So line managers need to be great coaches and we put a lot ofemphasis on that. You know teaching them techniques, things like the grownmodel, but that's yeah. That's really my! I think a much better approach tokind of driving these top down targets into a team. I love it and there's somuch to unpack there. I think I feel like that that that little, that topicin and of itself could be could be a podcast, but I think it's a reallyinteresting perspective and congrats on having the courage, I'm sure you knowconvincing. The CEO, though this was a good idea, was probably something thattook a little bit of work so Kudos to you for making it happen. Thanks yeah,I was tough, but we got there. It was yeah. It was definitely were so tom,we're almost at the end of our time together, of course, we'll bring youback on Friday for Friday fundamentals, but in this last part the way Itypically frame it is follow the bread crumb trail right. We want to know whoare the influences, that created Tom Glass and it could be people thatyou've worked with or for it could be investors that you have a particularappreciation for could be books. You know you mentioned turning the shiparound by David Marquette, so you mentioned drive by Dan Pink, so we'vealready got two great book recommendations out of you, but youknow when you think about who you think we should know about, because they areimportant of had an impact on you who comes to mind what comes to mind yeahand that's a really a really tough one to answer. I think Sam because I thinkthere's dud there's just too many to mention, and you know this is probablythe beauty of being in pavilion right is you know I can real off so manynames of people that have had an impact on me in one way or another, but I'lltry and I'll try and give you a few know. Peak crosby I mentioned earlierjust an exception, a cro someone that I really I've got to yeah he's actually a reallygood friend of mine. Now, but someone that initially, you know when I waswhen I was building the chapter in London was just so pivotal and reallysupported me and then people like Nicola and Ison and Mon Yaho to youknow both exceptional marketers, both brilliant Mos people, that I turn tofor counsel a lot marketing, isn't my isn't one of my keys strength, sothey're, just great great mentals for me, Lor kitling out on t e and thecustomer success side again, another early pavilion chapter member member ofLondon exception or CS leader, always love spending time with Laura, and thenpeople at hand a Godfrey, and you know, rod, White Side Mattie. You know,there's there's a ton of folks to be honest, Sam and you know this is, Ithink, really why Vavilon for me has just been life changing because I'vemet I've met, so many great people that have had an influence on me. I love it.Thank you. Those are all great suggestions and yeah. It's a power ofcommunity. You get to meet all of these incredible people that have had apositive impact, and you know you've listed some of myfavorites and that list as well certainly Pete Crosbie Muna AnnaGodfrey. All of those are incredible folks, Tom There's people out therethat are listening, they're, probably inspired, but what you shared, if folks,want to get in touch with you. What's the what's the best way yeah, so youcan give me on link tin, so obviously...

...linton no com for S in Ford Tom Glassenor you can get me on email, so tom scalewings. so much for being a s onthe show and we'll talk to you on Friday for Friday fundamentals, Ireally enjoyed it. Thanks, O thanks to m everybody. Sam Jacobs, greatconversation with Tom Glasson Tom's built a really impressive and excitingcompany called scale wise, that's out of London, but but certainly has globalexpansion plans and and he's also just been doing sales Lateri for twentyyears and he dropped a lot of nuggets. Perhaps there's two that I that Ithought were really really interesting. The first is he's been through a lot ofcompanies that Tom and due diligence is just so important. He talked about youknow some of the fits and starts with terrible bosses with terrible founderswith founders that were fighting each other that we're trying to oust eachother. The trick years do diligence the trick. Here's doing your research anddoing your homework. You still can't prevent negative outcomes, but you doneed to do the work and you need to do the work on back channel references.You need to really have a fully formed understanding and again, even then.Even then, it still might go wrong, but at least know that you didn't it's notbecause you didn't do the research and do your homework. This is your career.You need to take control of your career. You need to take agency over yourcareer, it's not happening to you. You are in control of it, so make sure thatyou take the necessary steps. Do Your due diligence, ask the right questionsand that you are prepared for any new job that you take. The second big thingidea was this: was this framework that Tom put in it at good Lord, where heremoved targets? He said to the team: You make your own targets, here's whatthe requirements of the job, the basic responsibilities of the job are: here'swhere the business needs to go, but within that framework you take control.You tell us what you're going to do. You tell us how you want to be heldaccountable. You tell us what your goals are and how he can help you meetthem. I think that's really interesting and he's e e. You know he referencestand, pinks book drive and don't think has that famous thing about whatmotivates people and engages people, and it is autonomy, mastery and purposeand autonomy is a big one right being left alone. You, don't you don't likebeing told what to do all the time probably want task for help, but youwant to feel like the decisions that you make in your life or your own andthat you have agency and you have control, and that is the thing thatempowers you and gives you energy, at least in my experience in Tom'sexperience, so thought you know, consider consider removing removingquotas and having your reps choose their quotas, and then I guess you canconfirm if they add up to a goal that works for the company, but prettyradical, radical innovation there and- and I thought really interesting- sothat's it before we go. We want to think our sponsors we have. We havethree sponsors. We want to think. The first is out reach check out their onlysummit series go to summit down a reach. I O this year seem is the rise ofrevenue. Innovators. Also, of course, Pavilion Pavilion members get highertwenty two percent more quickly get paid fourteen percent more than theirpeers and promoted thirty percent more...

...frequently unlock ecret of her dreams.By applying to day at John Pazino and finally, Demo Stack the product emo ismake or break for your deal, but tailing the story's, tedious work, seehow world class sales or excuse emata to accelerate revenue at Demos Tacomaremind her. If you want to get in touch with them, you can salmon join popilionor Lincolm the word in Fort Slash on the word and then before slash the sameof Jacobs and I'll get back to you all right. Everybody I'll talk to you nexttime, thanks for listening to.

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