The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 11 months ago

183: Dear Sales Team, Set Your Own Quotas


In this episode of the Sales Hacker Podcast, we have Tom Glason , Cofounder & CEO at Scalewise , a platform that provides scale ups with flexible access to world-class revenue expertise. Join us for an insightful conversation on lessons from over 20 years in B2B sales tech and how to support teams and leaders in achieving their professional potential.

What You’ll Learn 

- How to take control of your career by doing due diligence

- Telling your sales team to set their own targets

- The role of autonomy, mastery, and purpose in motivating people

- The biggest mistakes early stage venture-backed companies make

Show Agenda and Timestamps

- About Tom Glason & Scalewise [4:15]

- Mistakes of early stage companies [7:50]

- A deep dive into Tom’s career of leadership [10:06]

- Why you should do due diligence before joining [20:28]

- Should reps set their own targets? Yes [25:51]

- Paying it forward [31:05]

- Sam’s Corner [33:27]

One, two, one, three, three. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the salesacker podcast. We are excited to have this week's guest on the show. His name's Tom Glass and Tom is a career sales leader and executive based out of London. He is also the CO founder and see of a company called Skill Wise, which provides coaching, resources and fractional support to companies that are going through hypergrowth. He founded that company with his wife, Karen. He's also the founder of the London chapter of Pavilion and he and I've worked together for a long time and I've developed an incredible amount of respect and it's a great conversation and really he is. He calls himself a leadership geek and he really is. He's got frameworks out the Wazoo, as we say in the US, and and really is a student of the game as much as he is a leader himself, and so it's a really you know, get out your notebook because he drops and nuggets left and right. So it's a great conversation. Now, before we get there, we want to thank our sponsors. We've got three. The first is outreach. Outreach has been a longtime sponsor of this show. We're excited to announce their annual series unleash summit series is back. This year's theme is the rise of revenue innovators. Join the new cohort of leaders who put buyers at the center of their sale strategies to drive efficient, predictable growth across the entire revenue cycle. Get more details and save your spot at summit. Dot Outreach Dooh. We're also sponsored by pavilion. Pavilion is the key to getting more out of your career. Our private membership gives you access to thousands of like minded peers, dozens of courses in schools through Pavilion University, and over Onezero workbooks, template scripts and play books to accelerate your development. Pavilion members, listen to these stats, get hired twenty two percent more quickly, are paid fourteen percent more and get promoted thirty four percent more rapidly than their peers. Unlock the career of your dreams by applying today at join PAVILIONCOM. And finally, Demo Stack. The product demo is make or break for your deal, but tailoring the story is tease work. Demo Stack turns weeks into minutes, so you can deliver custom demos at scale. No more acmank dummy data. With demo stack you can edit data and charts with a point and click and show product stories that wind deals faster. See how world class sales works. Use Demo Stack to accelerate revenue at Demo stackcom. And now, without further ado, let's listen my conversation with Tom glasson hey everybody at Sam Jacobs, before your ears are graced with today's episode, this is just a friendly reminder in case you're looking at buying sales tick this year, because of course, who isn't? Everybody's buying sales deck. If you are, you might want to check out sales hackers state of the sales stack report, based on responses from over a thousand sales people in revenue professionals. We cover the Roi Impact, an adoption of over forty tools across seven categories like crm, data and intelligence, sales engagement and so many more. I'll help you answer the question. How can I bring the best tools together for the biggest impact on revenue? And I won't help you. It'll help you. That's what it says. It says it'll help you. So I apologize for that. By the way, the report is free. We're not even asking for your email address. Grab the link in the show notes. We will let you get back to it.

Thanks so much for listening and get that report. Thank you. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the salesacker podcast. Today on the show we are excited to welcome Tom Glasson. Tom Is the CO founder and CEO of scale wise, a platform that provides scale ups with flexible access to world class revenue expertise. He spent over twenty years and Bob Tech sales, with over a decade in senior leadership roles within VC backed SASS scale ups. His focus has been on the journey from series a Toc and he's held roles such as VP of sales and operations at Trusso, svp of sales and marketing at bright pearl and chief commercial officer at good Lord. As a qualified coach in the founding member and share of the London chapter of Pavilion, he has a passion for supporting other revenue leaders to achieve their professional potential. Tom, welcome to the show. Thanks. I'm sorry delides it to be here. It's been too long, but I'm got. It has been. It's been we first got and I first met you in London in two thousand and eighteen. So it's been three years and this is only the first time we've had you on the show, which is a travesty. I hate it's they're glads a bit here. We're glad to have you. So I mentioned that you're the CEO of scale wise and I want to make sure that people are aware of what scale wise is and what you all do. So in your words, who and what is scale wise? Yeah, and I suppose I'll have to start a little bit with the the origin story and how it came about because, as you mentioned in the intro there, I'm the the London chapterhead for pavilion and I suppose through building the London chapter of Pavilion I've personally spoken to probably around five hundred revenue leaders that have joined the chapter over the last three years and in speaking to them I kind of realized two things. So the first one was that we have thirstly some exceptional talent in the group, which you'd expect. You know, super experienced revenue leaders who I felt could be really useful to start ups who perhaps lacked the right scaling expertise internally. So I wanted to find a way of unlocking this expertise to help many more companies scale in the right way, because there's certainly a lot out there that don't do it the right way and really struggle and I think, you know, hit some serious bumps in the road. But I also the second thing I realized was that there were a ton of these revenue leaders who wanted to kind of step off the full time employment hamster wheel and build a up was a more flexible portfolio career rather than kind of pulling in these crazy hours and blood, sweat and tears into a single start up with, you know, quite frankly, pretty poor job security and you know, we all know how tenuous the role of a revenue leader is now. I think it's a it's seventeen months for a VP of sales. Is the average. Have a ten year so I saw that there are all these really experience revenue leaders who wanted to advise or could coach or console to or build a fractional career which gives them more flexibility and less stressed than being full time employee. But I think that part of the challenge for these revenue leaders is how to take that first step from full time employment to a port earlier career can seem, I think,...

...quite daunting to give up a salary and you've got to go and find enough work and Balance Business Development and contracts and invoicing and payments and etc. Etc. So so, yeah, we created scale wise to give startups and scale ups flexible access to world class revenue expertise to help them accelerate growth. And that could be anything from, you know, a few hours and months of what we call scale coaching from an experienced leader right the way through to providing them with maybe a fractional leader such as a really good cmo or VP sales, who could work in their business for two to three days a week. And and you know, we take care of things like business development and contracts and invoicing on behalf of those scale experts so they don't have to worry about that stuff. And it's been, you have to say it's we've really been going eighteen months, but it's just been really satisfying to support folks in taking that step out of employment. But we also have a ton of scale experts, so we're still full time employeed, but they monetize their expertise by working with our clients alongside their day job and they, you know, they genuinely like sharing their knowledge and being useful. But it's also been great helping start ups, you know, plug that that leadership or expertise gaps, that they know they don't make some of those costly or avoidable mistakes that are so often made when when scaling. And we've, you know, we, I would say we've definitely been able to prevent a few of those seventeen months casualties and that really really motivate it's us. And and when I say us, I'm you know, I'm really actually pleased that I'm working finally with my wife Karen again after meeting at work really nearly twenty years ago, would you believe it? And so she's my cofounder, Karen, alongside my good friend and founding London Pavilion Chapter Member Gavin Sumner as well. What a great story and I love that Karen is a cofounder and you're a CO founder. You mentioned that companies make a bunch of mistakes and that you're helping them avoid a lot of those mistakes from your advantage point. You know, in the in the kind of a mere ecosystem. What do you think the biggest mistakes early stage, ventor back companies make? Yeah, I mean it's really interesting, Sam. We've just commissioned a research report on that. That kind of scaling journey between series A and B, and that is a that is a treacherous path, I think it's fair to say. And not many companies make it successfully through that. And you know, there's a bunch of things that highlighted in the report. You know, you won't be surprised to hear that hiring the wrong revenue leader is up there. You know, when it's not necessarily that revenue leader isn't isn't good. It's timing and it's fit and it's setting them up for success. And and I think you know the report highlighted that, typically an early stage start up between kind of series a and B, or maybe a little bit further, you know, they go through two revenue leaders during that period and that's that's a massive cost, you know, waste of time energy for everyone involved and it's it's I think it's a real travesty that that happens. So that's one of the things that kind of keeps US motivated how can we prevent that from happening a bit more frequently? But then, you you know, as outside of that, you you can imagine just the...

...whole raft of challenges that people face from, you know, how do we build an effective SDR team and get them producing predictable pipeline through to how do we build our first CSM playbook and and actually drive up cell and Cross Cell and retention and Customer Sert and and then, you know, on the marketing side we get a ton of different briefs from ahead of marketing that is maybe struggling to kind of scale with the business. You know, they're thinking about hiring a CMO, but you know, they thinking that they might want to invest in this individuals and so you know, we're really pleased that we can come in and provide some scale coaching. You know, really experience. EMO COMES IN, works with that head of marketing and enables them to level up so ultimately that company can can keep going for longer with that necessarily hiring externally. And you know, we all know how challenging it is to hire externally in the current market at the moment. So yeah, there's some of the things that we helpe with but it's, yeah, across the whole board of all things revenue. Wow, I'm at it. What a spectrum of possible activities and problems and challenges. I'm sure it's incredible to see the full sweep. Let's talk a little bit about your background. You know, I mentioned a couple of really impressive positions over the course of the last twenty years. How'd you get into sales? Tall, sort of bit about your real journey and then we can from there and dive into some lessons learn. But tell us about the origin story of Tom Glasson. Yeah, well, Sam, you know, when I when I look back, I think selling has been in my blood from pretty young age. You know, my my earliest memory of doing deals, I suppose, was when I was about eight and I used to collect these football cards and I had a pretty good knack of trading my unwanted cards for sweets in the playground and you know, I think I was pretty successful, judging by the Chubby photos of me around that around that age to be honest. But then I got my I spend my first sales job when I turned sixteen. I'd I'd heard that a double glazing window retailer near me was allowing sixteen year olds to make cold calls in a commission only roll. So as soon as I'd finished school that summer, I headed I headed straight down there and I remember being off of the job on the spot, but being told that, you know, if I didn't book at least one appointment each shift then I would be fired. and My boss also said that most people got fired after their first shift. So it was fair to say that I wasn't. You know, I wasn't feeling too optimistic about the whole thing. And and then I was, I suppose I was just given this big British Telecom phone book, like these huge like paper books, and a good old fashioned telephone and told that I had to work through surnames starting with specific letters of the alphabet. And I, you know, I did what I thought I should do, which is listened to some of the calls of the guy that seemed to be doing okay and and I thought right, I'm going to I'm going to jump in. And you know, I'll never forget the the crushing feeling of that first hour when every single person I called either yelled at me or put the phone down, or or probably both. And but then something. I know something clicked and I actually managed to go go ahead and break the record for the most appointments ever booked in in a...

...shift and on my first day. And I and I don't think my boss could believe I certainly couldn't believe it, but I do remember being lauded as some sort of sales here and you know, I definitely got the bug for sales and actually cold calling, which I still love, interestingly. But but after college I went, you know, when all my friends started going to uni, I decided that I wanted to take a year out and get back into a sales roll. So I ended up joining this company called British Gas, a big supply of heating services and energy in the UK, and and I was in this huge call center competing with like six hundred reps across the UK and this one big national leaderboard where you where each quarter that the top ten performers would win a luxury weekend breaking European city. And I very quickly worked out that this was a pure numbers game. You basically needed to make as many dolls as possible, but ideally at times of the day where you'd obviously get connects. So I used to get in early to catch free before they'd left a work. I'd stay late to get them after dinner. This was a kind of a Betac sale and I think my work rate and my kind of ethic basically meant that I did really, really well. I was I was only there for a year, just that year out that I too, but in in three of the four quarters I ended up finishing in the top ten and want some incredible trips to Amsterdam and Paris and Rome and you know, it is all five style hotels and spending money in all expenses, and I was only eighteen at this point. So so I think this was what then really cemented my my love of sales. And and then, after Uni, I got my first taste of tech startups. And this is kind of two thousand three, two thousand and four, but it's it's fair to say that this did did not go well at all. I joined a super early stage company founded by this guy who's dadded, made millions in in property and you know he'd to see had managed to raise a million from some high net worse, and I joined really as the first sales hire to try and sell this product. And it was a you know, we were selling mobile phone ticketing software, this solution, to transport company. So essentially we're sending bar codes to mobile phones via the old MMS messages, which could be scanned to gain entry. So kind of like a paperless ticketing. But we were we were battling hard to get product market fit. Yeah, I don't think the mobile technology or the scanning technology it really got to the point that it needed to. And we managed to secure a few paying clients, one of which, oddly, very oddly, was the Las Vegas Mono Rail. But the big issue was that my CEO was spending money like he was Mark Zuckerberg. We were, you know, we were traveling first class out to Las Vegas, we were staying in the Ballaggier jest, pissing money up the wall. Basically, I was in my early twent s at this point, so, you know, I was having a great time. But unfortunately, you know, the burn rate was too high. We didn't find product market fit quickly enough, so ended up flaming out and you know, I think it was a huge early lesson for me actually in in how not to scale a startup and just the importance of preserving cash and and making sure that burn rate... under control and I think I was reflected on the fact that I needed, you know, I needed more be tob sales experience. So I decided to get into enterprise sales. At this point I joined a big blue chip systems integrator called at ours origin, where I was selling these large kind of seven figure it services deals. And this is, I suppose, when, you know, I had a experience that completely changed my career and my perspective of leadership. I suppose I ended up working for just the worst boss you could ever imagine, you know, who completely ruined my mental health, I suppose, and I now won't go into details, but she she was that stereotypical kind of micromanaging, untrusting, you know, quite frankly, kind of brutal bully who just absolutely crushed my confidence and it, you know, impacted my relationships outside of work, you know, my sleep, my self worth. It was thinking back, it was. It was just awful, and I ended up being signed off with stress and then leaving the company after three tough years. I don't quite know how I lasted three years, but I was just, you know, I don't give up that that easily and and that suppose this was a catalyst for me for a period of change and reflection. And firstly, I realized that I never wanted to work in a large corporate again. I just hated all the bullshit and the politics and and secondly, I reflected on the impact that leaders can have on people's lives, both in the positive also, obviously, in the in the negative. And it and its suddenly hit me. I wanted to be a leader who has a real positive impact on live, someone who, you know, who could essentially create a kind of ripple effect that transcended work, that gave people confidence in their personal lives. To I basically decided that I wanted to be a sales leader that was the complete opposite to the awful one that I had had. And you know, I was. I think I was really lucky just to get my break into the world of Sass when I joined Bright Pearl in two thousand and ten, just after they raise their series a and that was led by notion. But I spent, you know, five amazing years at bright prothers as VP sales, then svp global sales and marketing and through through three rounds of funding, and I think, you know, I think it's fair to say that it was during this period that I just became a leadership geek. And my my geekiness, I suppose, was also fueled by my wife, Karen, who pursued a career in leadership development too. and and thinking about it, you know, I think I just was really determined to be the best leader I could be. So, of course, you know, I read tons of books on leader year by listened to podcast I read blogs. But but they also worked hard to build connections with with peers who also sales leaders that I could learn from. And it was it was these connections, actually two people like Pete Crosby, who I know you had on the podcast last year, that I just gained. I just gained a massive amount from you know, they offered, you know, safe space to talk openly about the challenges I was facing in my role, there was always loads, and but also to share best practices. And so I suppose I felt like I wanted more sales leaders to benefit from the value that I was getting and...

I decided that I wanted to start building a community in London that was focused on helping each other become better leaders, which would then, you know, hopefully have that ripple effect on those leaders teams and, ultimately, you know, the start up ecosystem in London as well. And it was whilst I was having these thoughts that I stumbled across actually the sales hack of podcast hosted by none other than the founder of the community, called then New York revenue collective, and then when I looked into what it was, what it was like, the collective, it appeared to be exactly know what I was hoping to building in London. So, as you know, a little over three years ago, you know, I sent you a speculative linkedin message asking if I could pick your brains about New York revenue collective. A few weeks later you were in London, we met for lunch and you know, it's just clear that we know, we both had the same vision and, I think, a deeply held belief about how useful leaders could be to one another. And Pretty soon after that, you know, London became the second chapter of our sea and you know what a yeah, what a journey it's been over the last three years. Sam, I think you had like fourteen, maybe fifty members in New York when I reached that to you. Is it's pretty much, I think, an email group and the occasional dinner and and now we have a just it's incredible to see we've got like fivezero members globally and just such a incredible membership offering. You Know Saidy odd events each week, career services, structured learning programs, mentoring resources and I'm sure a bunch of other things that I haven't mentioned that you know. I just feel proud really and honor to have been able to play a small role in the global expansion of I'll see, which, of course, we will know as pavilion now, and you know, I have a huge amount to be grateful for as I really don't think I would have found it scale wise if it wasn't for a pavilion. So yeah, thanks, thanks against them. Well. Thank you, Tom It's been an incredible partnership and and you've had much more than a small role. You've had a massive role in the growth that we've seen over the last couple of years. You mentioned a couple of really personal stories about, you know, bad bosses and good bosses and what spurred you to to really become a leadership geek. When you think about the biggest lessons learn from your time it startups. One of the things that you've mentioned to me in the past is how important due diligences on the company. Talk a little bit about you know, obviously you've had some good experiences and bad experiences, but talk a little bit about why it's so important and then maybe some insights on, you know, what kind of methodologies or questions. You know, what is the best way to do due diligence on a company before you join in your opinion? Yeah, and this is this is so, so important that you know when you're when you're joining it series a stage, which is what I was typically doing. You know, you accept that there's an element of risk around things like puduct market fear and scalability, but but boy, I've been in, I've been involved in some interesting ones and I you know, I certainly wish I'd done more DD with a couple of companies I joined, although there, you know, there was probably one that I thought I'd really got the DD right and it ended up being a disaster to so you know, I won't I won't obviously mentioned specific company names, of course,...

...but I know I'll give you a few examples of some of the situations I've found myself and I'm sure, I'm sure you'll find them slightly amusing perhaps. And you know, one one company I joined a just raise their series a, you know, from a really good tier one. You know, European VC was getting some great traction. I'd done client references, I've spoken at length with team members the VC and even reviewed the board deck from the last couple of board meetings. I'd gained access to their cram so I I'd kind of gone to town on it. But, you know, it seemed like a great opportunity until until six months into their role when it just became clear that the to co founders were trying to kick each other out the the business. There was there was this serious tension between them and it was, I suppose it was just paralyzing the companies. They just they couldn't agree on anything. And as one was the CTEO as well, that was just playing havard with the road map and getting product out of the door and meeting customer expectation. So it was a it was a bit of a Nimi. Anyway, I ended up getting caught in the middle of these two and decided to raise the flag to the investors and it was clear. It's clear it was going to get messy. So I exited and then the CTEO left a few months later. You know, I was only there for a probably a year, but there the crazy thing about this one is that, as it relates to DD is that I'd actually I'd actually met them together, so the could tow co founders. I've met for drinks a couple of times in the interview process and they seem to get on amazingly well. But it was it was obviously all the big act in hindsight, and and what I probably fail to do, though, which I should have done, is back channel character reference at least one of the founders, as I think that would have definitely dug up some some red flag. So a big lesson on this one for me is do your back channel references, folks, if you, if you can, really really important to do. And then another company. I joined. It series A. seemed to have incredible investor support, you know, just an insane growth rate. The uniqueconomics the business for pretty shit to be honest. But the CEO was convinced that this was all the land grab, you know, that we needed to be aggressively taking market share the ridge, you know, should be blitz scaling. They were also in the middle of a replatforming that promised to kind of fix a bunch of the issues with the UNECONOMICS and but anywhere. I was tasked to to come in as VP cells scale the sales team from ten to forty reps within nine months, which of course, I went ahead and did, only to find that the the re platforming was a was just a complete disaster and that the series be investors had gone cold. And this this triggered she multiple exits on the leadership team, including the CEO, and and I was left actually to restructure the business, reducing headcount by thirty percent and then kicking off a search for a new CEO as well. And you know, thankfully we you know, we found an amazing you CEEO who joined the business and is doing really well now. But but boy, that was a tough gig restructuring in that way. And my big, I suppose my big lesson here is just never join a company that's free platforming. I've since found out that this really ends well. I've had a lot of stories from other people, but I also think there's a lesson about blitzcaling here to you know, for all of Reid Hoffmann's evangelism, you know,...

I believe there's a very small minority of companies that can pull this off effectively or should even attempt to do it. And I certainly don't think you should be attempting it with European investors. Personally, I think you need very good us investors with deep pockets and that kind of mindset. And then my final story is a rather tragic one, which actually can't go into too much detail about, but it it culminated in the founder CEO exiting the business within my first twelve months. Again, I then had to lead a small restructure and help find another CEO. And, and I I know what listeners are probably thinking, like Tom Joins a start up and then founders leave within within twelve months. There the common denominator here is Tom. But but I can, you know, I can hand on heart say that. You know, I wasn't lobbying for any of these exits at all. In fact, I've always actually gotten really well with the CEOS I've worked for. But the big lesson here for me and for others is that doing effect DDD before you join a company is just so, so important. I believe that's kind of regardless of what role you're going into do, but even more so if you're taking a leadership role. I do count myself actually very, very lucky to have never been fired from a job, but I know countless revenue leaders who have been fired, and that's not because they're crap at being a revenue leads, the certainly not, but because they joined the company that just wasn't a fit for them or perhaps didn't even need them. And good dd I think things help to uncover that stuff. I love that. And Yeah, you're talking to one that's that's certainly been fired. I've been fired more than I haven't been fired. So maybe maybe together where the money? So many out there's nuts. So one last question before before we go to some of your influences. I just think this is really interesting. You know you we ask a question in the briefing what's something of a unique or controversial perspective on and you say don't set tap down targets for your reps, let them set their own targets. Walk through that is a controversial perspective. Walk through how that works, walk through how that connects to forecasting for the business at large and just love to hear your perspective on that. Yeah, for sure. So you know, I personally, I I think we have a duty to our team's really to recognize what motivates each individual than and to tap into into this rather than using targets as a kind of blunt instrument to drive performance. And and you target it's by their very nature, you know, their top down, they're directive, and the problem with this is that as humans we know when we have something imposed on us it takes away our autonomy. And you know, there's been tons of research over the years on the positive impact of autonomy in the workplace. I mean Damp Pink's great book drive references, as you know, one of the three things in autonomy master in purpose that really drives happiness at work and engagement. But but there're also there's been research done, I think it was Birmingham business school a couple of years ago, you know, Twentyzero workers, you know, show that there was a direct correlation between higher levels of autonomy and job satisfaction and well being. And you know, we...

...know from things like Gallop and their research and employee engagement that they're happier people are, you know, the more productive they're going to be as well. So you know, autonomy can obviously apply in different ways and that can be making decisions, it can be contributing ideas or having responsibility and limited supervision. And, you know, people that want to explore this topic further would definitely recommend that the book by David Marque, which is called turn the ship around. It's just an exceptional book about how we turn this worst performing submarine around by by basically breaking the the common mold of the kind of leader follower and really giving autonomy and and letting other people lead. But essentially, we need to take, I think, the time to understand what motivates each person. We need to create a safe space where reps feel comfortable talking about what their personal drivers and Frontrinsic motivators are, and I think it's this psychological safety which is probably the kind of critical first step in building up trust to discuss things like values and wants and desires. And then, you know, once we've got that psychological safety, I think you're then in a position to have very open and frank conversations about what is required in their role. But, more importantly, you know what are they looking to achieve and why? Know what are their drivers? Why have they come? What are they looking to achieve this year, next year, three years? And I think it's through these very open, transparent conversations that you can start to really tap into people's internal intrinsic motivations. And that might be, you know, for some people that might be about being the best in the teams rather as it could be about owning enough money to afford a family holiday or something. But we then essentially work with them to build their own plan, their own metrics, their own goals and inputs and outputs based on their specific wants and needs and not ours. And and then, you know, we become as a leader, we become their their coach or their accountability partner and your we're there to support and challenge and question and you hold the mirror up sometimes, but I think this maintains trust and a safe space then to talk openly about performance in the context of role expectations, because, don't get me wrong, these expectations are important, but I think they can be shared in a transparent way without undercurrents of threat or fear, and so I can take to be a very real story of this, I suppose, in a role where, you know, I took away top down targets and in my lastp sales role and and you know, it was it was a difficult role because the team, the motivation wasn't great, the culture was not quite right and they were, it was sick of the targets kind of growing up kind of quarter on quarter, because it was a it was a strange environment before I turned up. And and so what we did is we took them away and we adopted this approach that I just talked about. We made it very clear what the company needs, but we said, look, this is your this is your role, this is, you know, your goal, your drivers. You set them and and you know, it took US probably a couple of months, maybe three months, to kind of really embed this thinking. But then the following quarter productivity...

...increase by nearly thirty percent and and it was phenomenal. And then it happened again the next quarter, not by the same level, but you know, but it was a real shift in terms of productivity. You know, and it does. There's some factors that you know, definitely contribute to that success. So line managers need to be great coaches that we put a lot of emphasis on that, you know, teaching them techniques, things like the grow model. But that's, yeah, that's really my I think, a much better approach to kind of driving these top down targets into a team. I love it and there's so much to unpack there. I think I feel like that that that little that topic in and other self, could be could be a podcast, but I think it's a really interesting perspective and congrats on having the courage. I'm sure you know, convincing the CEO that this was a good idea was probably something that took a little bit of work. So could as to you from making it happen and danks every stuff, but we got there. It was yeah, it was definitely what so, Tom we're almost at the end of our time together. Of course we'll bring you back on Friday for Friday fundamentals, but in this last part, the way I typically frame it is follow the bread crumb trail, right. We want to know who are the influences that created Tom Glass, and it could be people that you've worked with or for, it could be investors that you have a particular appreciation for, could be books you know, you mentioned turning the ship around, by David Marquette, so and you mentioned drive by Dan Pink. So we've already got two great book recommendations out of you. But you know, when you think about who you think we should know about because they are important, I've had an impact on you. WHO COMES TO MIND? WHAT COMES TO MIND? Yeah, and that's a really, really tough one to on. So I think Sam, because I think there's there's just too many to mention. And you know, this is probably the beauty of being in pavilion right is you know, I could really lost so many names of people that have had an impact on me and one way or another, but I'll I'll try and I'll try and give you a few. You know, peak Crosby, I mentioned earlier, just an exceptional cro someone that I really have got to yeah, he's actually a really good friend of mine now, but someone that initially, you know, when I was when I was building the chapter in London, was just so pivotal and really supported me. And then people like Nicola and the s and Mun Yahote, you know, both exceptional market is, both brilliant CMOS, people I turn to for council a lot. Marketing isn't my isn't one of my key strents. So they're just great, great mentals for me. Lor kitling out on the on the customer success side. Again, another the pavilion chapter. Member, member in London, exceptional CS leader. Always love spending time with Laura. And then people are Hannah God free and you know, Rob Whiteside, Matt Wise, you know, there's there's a ton of folks, to be honest, Sam, and you know this is, I think, really why pavilion for me is just been life changing because I've met I've met so many great people that have had an influence on me. I love it. Thank you. Those are all great suggestions and yeah, it's a power of community. You get to meet all of these incredible people that have had a positive impact. And Yeah, you've listed some of my favorites in that list as well. Certainly Pete Crosby, Munya, Hannah God free, all of those are incredible folks. Tom There's people out there that are listening. They're probably inspired by what you've shared. If folks want to get in touch with you, what's the what's the best way? Yeah, so you can give me on Linkedin. So obviously linkedincom...

...forward slash in board. Tom Glasson or you can get me on email. So Tom at scale wisecom awesome. Tom, thanks so much for being a on the show and we'll talk to you on Friday for Friday fundamentals. I've really enjoyed it. Thanks SAM, thanks Tom, everybody. Sam Jacobs Great Conversation with Tom Glass and Tom's built a really impressive and exciting company called scale wise. That's out of London, but but certainly has global expansion plans and and he's also just been doing sales leadership for twenty years and he dropped a lot of nuggets. Perhaps there's two that I that I thought were really, really interesting. The first is he's been through a lot of companies. That Tom and due diligence is just so important. He talked about, you know, some of the fits and starts with terrible bosses, with terrible founders, with founders that were fighting each other, that were trying to oust each other. The trick here is due diligence. The trick here is doing your research and doing your homework. You still can't prevent negative outcomes, but you do need to do the work and you need to do the work on backchannel references. You need to really have a fully formed understanding. And again, even then, even then it's still might go wrong, but at least know that you didn't. It's not because you didn't do the research into your homework. This is your career. You need to take control of your career. You need to take agency over your career. It's not happening to you. You are in control of it. So make sure that you take the necessary steps, do your due diligence, ask the right questions and that you are prepared for any new job that you take. The second big thing idea was this was this framework that Tom put in at good Lord where he removed targets. He said to the team, you make your own targets. Here's what the requirements of the job, the basic responsibilities of the job are, here's where the business needs to go. But within that framework you take control. You tell us what you're going to do, you tell us how you want to be held accountable, you tell us what your goals are and how we can help you meet them. I think that's really interesting and he's were you know, he referenced Dan Pink's Book Drive and Dan Pink has that famous thing about what motivates people and engages people and it is autonomy, mastery and purpose. And autonomy's a big one. Right, being left alone. You don't, you know, like being told what to do all the time. Probably want task for help, but you want to feel like the decisions that you make in your life for your own and that you have agency and you have control, and that is the thing that empowers you and gives you energy, at least in my experience, in Tom's experience. So thought, you know, consider, consider removing, removing quotas and having your reps choose their quotas and then, I guess you can confirm if they add up to a goal that works for the company. But pretty radical, radical innovation there and and I thought really interesting. So that's it. Before we go, we want to thank our sponsors. We have, we have three sponsors we want to thank. The first is outreach. Check out their unleash summit series. GO TO SUMMIT DOT outreach. That I oh. This year's seam is a rise of revenue, innovators. Also, of course, pavilion. Pavilion members get hired twenty two percent more quickly, get paid fourteen percent more than their peers and...

...promoted thirty percent more frequently. Unlocked the career of your dreams by applying today at join PAVILIONCOM. And finally, Demo Stack. The product demo was make or break for your deal, but tailoring the story is tedious work. See how world class sales are. Ex Use demo stack to accelerate revenue at Demo STATCOM. Reminder, if you want to get in touch with me, you Ken Sama, join Pavilioncom or linkedincom. The word in for slash on the word and then the four slash, then Sam f Jacobs, and I'll get back to you. All right, everybody, I'll talk to you next time. Thanks for listening.

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