The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 months ago

183: Dear Sales Team, Set Your Own Quotas


In this episode of the Sales Hacker Podcast, we have Tom Glason , Cofounder & CEO at Scalewise , a platform that provides scale ups with flexible access to world-class revenue expertise. Join us for an insightful conversation on lessons from over 20 years in B2B sales tech and how to support teams and leaders in achieving their professional potential.

What You’ll Learn 

- How to take control of your career by doing due diligence

- Telling your sales team to set their own targets

- The role of autonomy, mastery, and purpose in motivating people

- The biggest mistakes early stage venture-backed companies make

Show Agenda and Timestamps

- About Tom Glason & Scalewise [4:15]

- Mistakes of early stage companies [7:50]

- A deep dive into Tom’s career of leadership [10:06]

- Why you should do due diligence before joining [20:28]

- Should reps set their own targets? Yes [25:51]

- Paying it forward [31:05]

- Sam’s Corner [33:27]

One, two, one, three, three. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the salesacker podcast. We are excited to have this week's guest on the show. His name'sTom Glass and Tom is a career sales leader and executive based out of London. He is also the CO founder and see of a company called Skill Wise, which provides coaching, resources and fractional support to companies that are going throughhypergrowth. He founded that company with his wife, Karen. He's also thefounder of the London chapter of Pavilion and he and I've worked together for along time and I've developed an incredible amount of respect and it's a great conversationand really he is. He calls himself a leadership geek and he really is. He's got frameworks out the Wazoo, as we say in the US,and and really is a student of the game as much as he is aleader himself, and so it's a really you know, get out your notebookbecause he drops and nuggets left and right. So it's a great conversation. Now, before we get there, we want to thank our sponsors. We'vegot three. The first is outreach. Outreach has been a longtime sponsor ofthis show. We're excited to announce their annual series unleash summit series is back. This year's theme is the rise of revenue innovators. Join the new cohortof leaders who put buyers at the center of their sale strategies to drive efficient, predictable growth across the entire revenue cycle. Get more details and save your spotat summit. Dot Outreach Dooh. We're also sponsored by pavilion. Pavilionis the key to getting more out of your career. Our private membership givesyou access to thousands of like minded peers, dozens of courses in schools through PavilionUniversity, and over Onezero workbooks, template scripts and play books to accelerateyour development. Pavilion members, listen to these stats, get hired twenty twopercent more quickly, are paid fourteen percent more and get promoted thirty four percentmore rapidly than their peers. Unlock the career of your dreams by applying todayat join PAVILIONCOM. And finally, Demo Stack. The product demo is makeor break for your deal, but tailoring the story is tease work. DemoStack turns weeks into minutes, so you can deliver custom demos at scale.No more acmank dummy data. With demo stack you can edit data and chartswith a point and click and show product stories that wind deals faster. Seehow world class sales works. Use Demo Stack to accelerate revenue at Demo stackcom. And now, without further ado, let's listen my conversation with Tom glassonhey everybody at Sam Jacobs, before your ears are graced with today's episode,this is just a friendly reminder in case you're looking at buying sales tick thisyear, because of course, who isn't? Everybody's buying sales deck. If youare, you might want to check out sales hackers state of the salesstack report, based on responses from over a thousand sales people in revenue professionals. We cover the Roi Impact, an adoption of over forty tools across sevencategories like crm, data and intelligence, sales engagement and so many more.I'll help you answer the question. How can I bring the best tools togetherfor the biggest impact on revenue? And I won't help you. It'll helpyou. That's what it says. It says it'll help you. So Iapologize for that. By the way, the report is free. We're noteven asking for your email address. Grab the link in the show notes.We will let you get back to it.

Thanks so much for listening and getthat report. Thank you. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcometo the salesacker podcast. Today on the show we are excited to welcome TomGlasson. Tom Is the CO founder and CEO of scale wise, a platformthat provides scale ups with flexible access to world class revenue expertise. He spentover twenty years and Bob Tech sales, with over a decade in senior leadershiproles within VC backed SASS scale ups. His focus has been on the journeyfrom series a Toc and he's held roles such as VP of sales and operationsat Trusso, svp of sales and marketing at bright pearl and chief commercial officerat good Lord. As a qualified coach in the founding member and share ofthe London chapter of Pavilion, he has a passion for supporting other revenue leadersto achieve their professional potential. Tom, welcome to the show. Thanks.I'm sorry delides it to be here. It's been too long, but I'mgot. It has been. It's been we first got and I first metyou in London in two thousand and eighteen. So it's been three years and thisis only the first time we've had you on the show, which isa travesty. I hate it's they're glads a bit here. We're glad tohave you. So I mentioned that you're the CEO of scale wise and Iwant to make sure that people are aware of what scale wise is and whatyou all do. So in your words, who and what is scale wise?Yeah, and I suppose I'll have to start a little bit with thethe origin story and how it came about because, as you mentioned in theintro there, I'm the the London chapterhead for pavilion and I suppose through buildingthe London chapter of Pavilion I've personally spoken to probably around five hundred revenue leadersthat have joined the chapter over the last three years and in speaking to themI kind of realized two things. So the first one was that we havethirstly some exceptional talent in the group, which you'd expect. You know,super experienced revenue leaders who I felt could be really useful to start ups whoperhaps lacked the right scaling expertise internally. So I wanted to find a wayof unlocking this expertise to help many more companies scale in the right way,because there's certainly a lot out there that don't do it the right way andreally struggle and I think, you know, hit some serious bumps in the road. But I also the second thing I realized was that there were aton of these revenue leaders who wanted to kind of step off the full timeemployment hamster wheel and build a up was a more flexible portfolio career rather thankind of pulling in these crazy hours and blood, sweat and tears into asingle start up with, you know, quite frankly, pretty poor job securityand you know, we all know how tenuous the role of a revenue leaderis now. I think it's a it's seventeen months for a VP of sales. Is the average. Have a ten year so I saw that there areall these really experience revenue leaders who wanted to advise or could coach or consoleto or build a fractional career which gives them more flexibility and less stressed thanbeing full time employee. But I think that part of the challenge for theserevenue leaders is how to take that first step from full time employment to aport earlier career can seem, I think,...

...quite daunting to give up a salaryand you've got to go and find enough work and Balance Business Development andcontracts and invoicing and payments and etc. Etc. So so, yeah,we created scale wise to give startups and scale ups flexible access to world classrevenue expertise to help them accelerate growth. And that could be anything from,you know, a few hours and months of what we call scale coaching froman experienced leader right the way through to providing them with maybe a fractional leadersuch as a really good cmo or VP sales, who could work in theirbusiness for two to three days a week. And and you know, we takecare of things like business development and contracts and invoicing on behalf of thosescale experts so they don't have to worry about that stuff. And it's been, you have to say it's we've really been going eighteen months, but it'sjust been really satisfying to support folks in taking that step out of employment.But we also have a ton of scale experts, so we're still full timeemployeed, but they monetize their expertise by working with our clients alongside their dayjob and they, you know, they genuinely like sharing their knowledge and beinguseful. But it's also been great helping start ups, you know, plugthat that leadership or expertise gaps, that they know they don't make some ofthose costly or avoidable mistakes that are so often made when when scaling. Andwe've, you know, we, I would say we've definitely been able toprevent a few of those seventeen months casualties and that really really motivate it's us. And and when I say us, I'm you know, I'm really actuallypleased that I'm working finally with my wife Karen again after meeting at work reallynearly twenty years ago, would you believe it? And so she's my cofounder, Karen, alongside my good friend and founding London Pavilion Chapter Member Gavin Sumneras well. What a great story and I love that Karen is a cofounderand you're a CO founder. You mentioned that companies make a bunch of mistakesand that you're helping them avoid a lot of those mistakes from your advantage point. You know, in the in the kind of a mere ecosystem. Whatdo you think the biggest mistakes early stage, ventor back companies make? Yeah,I mean it's really interesting, Sam. We've just commissioned a research report onthat. That kind of scaling journey between series A and B, andthat is a that is a treacherous path, I think it's fair to say.And not many companies make it successfully through that. And you know,there's a bunch of things that highlighted in the report. You know, youwon't be surprised to hear that hiring the wrong revenue leader is up there.You know, when it's not necessarily that revenue leader isn't isn't good. It'stiming and it's fit and it's setting them up for success. And and Ithink you know the report highlighted that, typically an early stage start up betweenkind of series a and B, or maybe a little bit further, youknow, they go through two revenue leaders during that period and that's that's amassive cost, you know, waste of time energy for everyone involved and it'sit's I think it's a real travesty that that happens. So that's one ofthe things that kind of keeps US motivated how can we prevent that from happeninga bit more frequently? But then, you you know, as outside ofthat, you you can imagine just the...

...whole raft of challenges that people facefrom, you know, how do we build an effective SDR team and getthem producing predictable pipeline through to how do we build our first CSM playbook andand actually drive up cell and Cross Cell and retention and Customer Sert and andthen, you know, on the marketing side we get a ton of differentbriefs from ahead of marketing that is maybe struggling to kind of scale with thebusiness. You know, they're thinking about hiring a CMO, but you know, they thinking that they might want to invest in this individuals and so youknow, we're really pleased that we can come in and provide some scale coaching. You know, really experience. EMO COMES IN, works with that headof marketing and enables them to level up so ultimately that company can can keepgoing for longer with that necessarily hiring externally. And you know, we all knowhow challenging it is to hire externally in the current market at the moment. So yeah, there's some of the things that we helpe with but it's, yeah, across the whole board of all things revenue. Wow, I'mat it. What a spectrum of possible activities and problems and challenges. I'msure it's incredible to see the full sweep. Let's talk a little bit about yourbackground. You know, I mentioned a couple of really impressive positions overthe course of the last twenty years. How'd you get into sales? Tall, sort of bit about your real journey and then we can from there anddive into some lessons learn. But tell us about the origin story of TomGlasson. Yeah, well, Sam, you know, when I when Ilook back, I think selling has been in my blood from pretty young age. You know, my my earliest memory of doing deals, I suppose,was when I was about eight and I used to collect these football cards andI had a pretty good knack of trading my unwanted cards for sweets in theplayground and you know, I think I was pretty successful, judging by theChubby photos of me around that around that age to be honest. But thenI got my I spend my first sales job when I turned sixteen. I'dI'd heard that a double glazing window retailer near me was allowing sixteen year oldsto make cold calls in a commission only roll. So as soon as I'dfinished school that summer, I headed I headed straight down there and I rememberbeing off of the job on the spot, but being told that, you know, if I didn't book at least one appointment each shift then I wouldbe fired. and My boss also said that most people got fired after theirfirst shift. So it was fair to say that I wasn't. You know, I wasn't feeling too optimistic about the whole thing. And and then Iwas, I suppose I was just given this big British Telecom phone book,like these huge like paper books, and a good old fashioned telephone and toldthat I had to work through surnames starting with specific letters of the alphabet.And I, you know, I did what I thought I should do,which is listened to some of the calls of the guy that seemed to bedoing okay and and I thought right, I'm going to I'm going to jumpin. And you know, I'll never forget the the crushing feeling of thatfirst hour when every single person I called either yelled at me or put thephone down, or or probably both. And but then something. I knowsomething clicked and I actually managed to go go ahead and break the record forthe most appointments ever booked in in a...

...shift and on my first day.And I and I don't think my boss could believe I certainly couldn't believe it, but I do remember being lauded as some sort of sales here and youknow, I definitely got the bug for sales and actually cold calling, whichI still love, interestingly. But but after college I went, you know, when all my friends started going to uni, I decided that I wantedto take a year out and get back into a sales roll. So Iended up joining this company called British Gas, a big supply of heating services andenergy in the UK, and and I was in this huge call centercompeting with like six hundred reps across the UK and this one big national leaderboardwhere you where each quarter that the top ten performers would win a luxury weekendbreaking European city. And I very quickly worked out that this was a purenumbers game. You basically needed to make as many dolls as possible, butideally at times of the day where you'd obviously get connects. So I usedto get in early to catch free before they'd left a work. I'd staylate to get them after dinner. This was a kind of a Betac saleand I think my work rate and my kind of ethic basically meant that Idid really, really well. I was I was only there for a year, just that year out that I too, but in in three of the fourquarters I ended up finishing in the top ten and want some incredible tripsto Amsterdam and Paris and Rome and you know, it is all five stylehotels and spending money in all expenses, and I was only eighteen at thispoint. So so I think this was what then really cemented my my loveof sales. And and then, after Uni, I got my first tasteof tech startups. And this is kind of two thousand three, two thousandand four, but it's it's fair to say that this did did not gowell at all. I joined a super early stage company founded by this guywho's dadded, made millions in in property and you know he'd to see hadmanaged to raise a million from some high net worse, and I joined reallyas the first sales hire to try and sell this product. And it wasa you know, we were selling mobile phone ticketing software, this solution,to transport company. So essentially we're sending bar codes to mobile phones via theold MMS messages, which could be scanned to gain entry. So kind oflike a paperless ticketing. But we were we were battling hard to get productmarket fit. Yeah, I don't think the mobile technology or the scanning technologyit really got to the point that it needed to. And we managed tosecure a few paying clients, one of which, oddly, very oddly,was the Las Vegas Mono Rail. But the big issue was that my CEOwas spending money like he was Mark Zuckerberg. We were, you know, wewere traveling first class out to Las Vegas, we were staying in theBallaggier jest, pissing money up the wall. Basically, I was in my earlytwent s at this point, so, you know, I was having agreat time. But unfortunately, you know, the burn rate was toohigh. We didn't find product market fit quickly enough, so ended up flamingout and you know, I think it was a huge early lesson for meactually in in how not to scale a startup and just the importance of preservingcash and and making sure that burn rate... under control and I think Iwas reflected on the fact that I needed, you know, I needed more betob sales experience. So I decided to get into enterprise sales. Atthis point I joined a big blue chip systems integrator called at ours origin,where I was selling these large kind of seven figure it services deals. Andthis is, I suppose, when, you know, I had a experiencethat completely changed my career and my perspective of leadership. I suppose I endedup working for just the worst boss you could ever imagine, you know,who completely ruined my mental health, I suppose, and I now won't gointo details, but she she was that stereotypical kind of micromanaging, untrusting,you know, quite frankly, kind of brutal bully who just absolutely crushed myconfidence and it, you know, impacted my relationships outside of work, youknow, my sleep, my self worth. It was thinking back, it was. It was just awful, and I ended up being signed off withstress and then leaving the company after three tough years. I don't quite knowhow I lasted three years, but I was just, you know, Idon't give up that that easily and and that suppose this was a catalyst forme for a period of change and reflection. And firstly, I realized that Inever wanted to work in a large corporate again. I just hated allthe bullshit and the politics and and secondly, I reflected on the impact that leaderscan have on people's lives, both in the positive also, obviously,in the in the negative. And it and its suddenly hit me. Iwanted to be a leader who has a real positive impact on live, someonewho, you know, who could essentially create a kind of ripple effect thattranscended work, that gave people confidence in their personal lives. To I basicallydecided that I wanted to be a sales leader that was the complete opposite tothe awful one that I had had. And you know, I was.I think I was really lucky just to get my break into the world ofSass when I joined Bright Pearl in two thousand and ten, just after theyraise their series a and that was led by notion. But I spent,you know, five amazing years at bright prothers as VP sales, then svpglobal sales and marketing and through through three rounds of funding, and I think, you know, I think it's fair to say that it was during thisperiod that I just became a leadership geek. And my my geekiness, I suppose, was also fueled by my wife, Karen, who pursued a career inleadership development too. and and thinking about it, you know, Ithink I just was really determined to be the best leader I could be.So, of course, you know, I read tons of books on leaderyear by listened to podcast I read blogs. But but they also worked hard tobuild connections with with peers who also sales leaders that I could learn from. And it was it was these connections, actually two people like Pete Crosby,who I know you had on the podcast last year, that I justgained. I just gained a massive amount from you know, they offered,you know, safe space to talk openly about the challenges I was facing inmy role, there was always loads, and but also to share best practices. And so I suppose I felt like I wanted more sales leaders to benefitfrom the value that I was getting and...

I decided that I wanted to startbuilding a community in London that was focused on helping each other become better leaders, which would then, you know, hopefully have that ripple effect on thoseleaders teams and, ultimately, you know, the start up ecosystem in London aswell. And it was whilst I was having these thoughts that I stumbledacross actually the sales hack of podcast hosted by none other than the founder ofthe community, called then New York revenue collective, and then when I lookedinto what it was, what it was like, the collective, it appearedto be exactly know what I was hoping to building in London. So,as you know, a little over three years ago, you know, Isent you a speculative linkedin message asking if I could pick your brains about NewYork revenue collective. A few weeks later you were in London, we metfor lunch and you know, it's just clear that we know, we bothhad the same vision and, I think, a deeply held belief about how usefulleaders could be to one another. And Pretty soon after that, youknow, London became the second chapter of our sea and you know what ayeah, what a journey it's been over the last three years. Sam,I think you had like fourteen, maybe fifty members in New York when Ireached that to you. Is it's pretty much, I think, an emailgroup and the occasional dinner and and now we have a just it's incredible tosee we've got like fivezero members globally and just such a incredible membership offering.You Know Saidy odd events each week, career services, structured learning programs,mentoring resources and I'm sure a bunch of other things that I haven't mentioned thatyou know. I just feel proud really and honor to have been able toplay a small role in the global expansion of I'll see, which, ofcourse, we will know as pavilion now, and you know, I have ahuge amount to be grateful for as I really don't think I would havefound it scale wise if it wasn't for a pavilion. So yeah, thanks, thanks against them. Well. Thank you, Tom It's been an incrediblepartnership and and you've had much more than a small role. You've had amassive role in the growth that we've seen over the last couple of years.You mentioned a couple of really personal stories about, you know, bad bossesand good bosses and what spurred you to to really become a leadership geek.When you think about the biggest lessons learn from your time it startups. Oneof the things that you've mentioned to me in the past is how important duediligences on the company. Talk a little bit about you know, obviously you'vehad some good experiences and bad experiences, but talk a little bit about whyit's so important and then maybe some insights on, you know, what kindof methodologies or questions. You know, what is the best way to dodue diligence on a company before you join in your opinion? Yeah, andthis is this is so, so important that you know when you're when you'rejoining it series a stage, which is what I was typically doing. Youknow, you accept that there's an element of risk around things like puduct marketfear and scalability, but but boy, I've been in, I've been involvedin some interesting ones and I you know, I certainly wish I'd done more DDwith a couple of companies I joined, although there, you know, therewas probably one that I thought I'd really got the DD right and itended up being a disaster to so you know, I won't I won't obviouslymentioned specific company names, of course,...

...but I know I'll give you afew examples of some of the situations I've found myself and I'm sure, I'msure you'll find them slightly amusing perhaps. And you know, one one companyI joined a just raise their series a, you know, from a really goodtier one. You know, European VC was getting some great traction.I'd done client references, I've spoken at length with team members the VC andeven reviewed the board deck from the last couple of board meetings. I'd gainedaccess to their cram so I I'd kind of gone to town on it.But, you know, it seemed like a great opportunity until until six monthsinto their role when it just became clear that the to co founders were tryingto kick each other out the the business. There was there was this serious tensionbetween them and it was, I suppose it was just paralyzing the companies. They just they couldn't agree on anything. And as one was the CTEO aswell, that was just playing havard with the road map and getting productout of the door and meeting customer expectation. So it was a it was abit of a Nimi. Anyway, I ended up getting caught in themiddle of these two and decided to raise the flag to the investors and itwas clear. It's clear it was going to get messy. So I exitedand then the CTEO left a few months later. You know, I wasonly there for a probably a year, but there the crazy thing about thisone is that, as it relates to DD is that I'd actually I'd actuallymet them together, so the could tow co founders. I've met for drinksa couple of times in the interview process and they seem to get on amazinglywell. But it was it was obviously all the big act in hindsight,and and what I probably fail to do, though, which I should have done, is back channel character reference at least one of the founders, asI think that would have definitely dug up some some red flag. So abig lesson on this one for me is do your back channel references, folks, if you, if you can, really really important to do. Andthen another company. I joined. It series A. seemed to have incredibleinvestor support, you know, just an insane growth rate. The uniqueconomics thebusiness for pretty shit to be honest. But the CEO was convinced that thiswas all the land grab, you know, that we needed to be aggressively takingmarket share the ridge, you know, should be blitz scaling. They werealso in the middle of a replatforming that promised to kind of fix abunch of the issues with the UNECONOMICS and but anywhere. I was tasked toto come in as VP cells scale the sales team from ten to forty repswithin nine months, which of course, I went ahead and did, onlyto find that the the re platforming was a was just a complete disaster andthat the series be investors had gone cold. And this this triggered she multiple exitson the leadership team, including the CEO, and and I was leftactually to restructure the business, reducing headcount by thirty percent and then kicking offa search for a new CEO as well. And you know, thankfully we youknow, we found an amazing you CEEO who joined the business and isdoing really well now. But but boy, that was a tough gig restructuring inthat way. And my big, I suppose my big lesson here isjust never join a company that's free platforming. I've since found out that this reallyends well. I've had a lot of stories from other people, butI also think there's a lesson about blitzcaling here to you know, for allof Reid Hoffmann's evangelism, you know,...

I believe there's a very small minorityof companies that can pull this off effectively or should even attempt to do it. And I certainly don't think you should be attempting it with European investors.Personally, I think you need very good us investors with deep pockets and thatkind of mindset. And then my final story is a rather tragic one,which actually can't go into too much detail about, but it it culminated inthe founder CEO exiting the business within my first twelve months. Again, Ithen had to lead a small restructure and help find another CEO. And,and I I know what listeners are probably thinking, like Tom Joins a startup and then founders leave within within twelve months. There the common denominator hereis Tom. But but I can, you know, I can hand onheart say that. You know, I wasn't lobbying for any of these exitsat all. In fact, I've always actually gotten really well with the CEOSI've worked for. But the big lesson here for me and for others isthat doing effect DDD before you join a company is just so, so important. I believe that's kind of regardless of what role you're going into do,but even more so if you're taking a leadership role. I do count myselfactually very, very lucky to have never been fired from a job, butI know countless revenue leaders who have been fired, and that's not because they'recrap at being a revenue leads, the certainly not, but because they joinedthe company that just wasn't a fit for them or perhaps didn't even need them. And good dd I think things help to uncover that stuff. I lovethat. And Yeah, you're talking to one that's that's certainly been fired.I've been fired more than I haven't been fired. So maybe maybe together wherethe money? So many out there's nuts. So one last question before before wego to some of your influences. I just think this is really interesting. You know you we ask a question in the briefing what's something of aunique or controversial perspective on and you say don't set tap down targets for yourreps, let them set their own targets. Walk through that is a controversial perspective. Walk through how that works, walk through how that connects to forecastingfor the business at large and just love to hear your perspective on that.Yeah, for sure. So you know, I personally, I I think wehave a duty to our team's really to recognize what motivates each individual thanand to tap into into this rather than using targets as a kind of bluntinstrument to drive performance. And and you target it's by their very nature,you know, their top down, they're directive, and the problem with thisis that as humans we know when we have something imposed on us it takesaway our autonomy. And you know, there's been tons of research over theyears on the positive impact of autonomy in the workplace. I mean Damp Pink'sgreat book drive references, as you know, one of the three things in autonomymaster in purpose that really drives happiness at work and engagement. But butthere're also there's been research done, I think it was Birmingham business school acouple of years ago, you know, Twentyzero workers, you know, showthat there was a direct correlation between higher levels of autonomy and job satisfaction andwell being. And you know, we...

...know from things like Gallop and theirresearch and employee engagement that they're happier people are, you know, the moreproductive they're going to be as well. So you know, autonomy can obviouslyapply in different ways and that can be making decisions, it can be contributingideas or having responsibility and limited supervision. And, you know, people thatwant to explore this topic further would definitely recommend that the book by David Marque, which is called turn the ship around. It's just an exceptional book about howwe turn this worst performing submarine around by by basically breaking the the commonmold of the kind of leader follower and really giving autonomy and and letting otherpeople lead. But essentially, we need to take, I think, thetime to understand what motivates each person. We need to create a safe spacewhere reps feel comfortable talking about what their personal drivers and Frontrinsic motivators are,and I think it's this psychological safety which is probably the kind of critical firststep in building up trust to discuss things like values and wants and desires.And then, you know, once we've got that psychological safety, I thinkyou're then in a position to have very open and frank conversations about what isrequired in their role. But, more importantly, you know what are theylooking to achieve and why? Know what are their drivers? Why have theycome? What are they looking to achieve this year, next year, threeyears? And I think it's through these very open, transparent conversations that youcan start to really tap into people's internal intrinsic motivations. And that might be, you know, for some people that might be about being the best inthe teams rather as it could be about owning enough money to afford a familyholiday or something. But we then essentially work with them to build their ownplan, their own metrics, their own goals and inputs and outputs based ontheir specific wants and needs and not ours. And and then, you know,we become as a leader, we become their their coach or their accountabilitypartner and your we're there to support and challenge and question and you hold themirror up sometimes, but I think this maintains trust and a safe space thento talk openly about performance in the context of role expectations, because, don'tget me wrong, these expectations are important, but I think they can be sharedin a transparent way without undercurrents of threat or fear, and so Ican take to be a very real story of this, I suppose, ina role where, you know, I took away top down targets and inmy lastp sales role and and you know, it was it was a difficult rolebecause the team, the motivation wasn't great, the culture was not quiteright and they were, it was sick of the targets kind of growing upkind of quarter on quarter, because it was a it was a strange environmentbefore I turned up. And and so what we did is we took themaway and we adopted this approach that I just talked about. We made itvery clear what the company needs, but we said, look, this isyour this is your role, this is, you know, your goal, yourdrivers. You set them and and you know, it took US probablya couple of months, maybe three months, to kind of really embed this thinking. But then the following quarter productivity...

...increase by nearly thirty percent and andit was phenomenal. And then it happened again the next quarter, not bythe same level, but you know, but it was a real shift interms of productivity. You know, and it does. There's some factors thatyou know, definitely contribute to that success. So line managers need to be greatcoaches that we put a lot of emphasis on that, you know,teaching them techniques, things like the grow model. But that's, yeah,that's really my I think, a much better approach to kind of driving thesetop down targets into a team. I love it and there's so much tounpack there. I think I feel like that that that little that topic inand other self, could be could be a podcast, but I think it'sa really interesting perspective and congrats on having the courage. I'm sure you know, convincing the CEO that this was a good idea was probably something that tooka little bit of work. So could as to you from making it happenand danks every stuff, but we got there. It was yeah, itwas definitely what so, Tom we're almost at the end of our time together. Of course we'll bring you back on Friday for Friday fundamentals, but inthis last part, the way I typically frame it is follow the bread crumbtrail, right. We want to know who are the influences that created TomGlass, and it could be people that you've worked with or for, itcould be investors that you have a particular appreciation for, could be books youknow, you mentioned turning the ship around, by David Marquette, so and youmentioned drive by Dan Pink. So we've already got two great book recommendationsout of you. But you know, when you think about who you thinkwe should know about because they are important, I've had an impact on you.WHO COMES TO MIND? WHAT COMES TO MIND? Yeah, and that'sa really, really tough one to on. So I think Sam, because Ithink there's there's just too many to mention. And you know, thisis probably the beauty of being in pavilion right is you know, I couldreally lost so many names of people that have had an impact on me andone way or another, but I'll I'll try and I'll try and give youa few. You know, peak Crosby, I mentioned earlier, just an exceptionalcro someone that I really have got to yeah, he's actually a reallygood friend of mine now, but someone that initially, you know, whenI was when I was building the chapter in London, was just so pivotaland really supported me. And then people like Nicola and the s and MunYahote, you know, both exceptional market is, both brilliant CMOS, peopleI turn to for council a lot. Marketing isn't my isn't one of mykey strents. So they're just great, great mentals for me. Lor kitlingout on the on the customer success side. Again, another the pavilion chapter.Member, member in London, exceptional CS leader. Always love spending timewith Laura. And then people are Hannah God free and you know, RobWhiteside, Matt Wise, you know, there's there's a ton of folks,to be honest, Sam, and you know this is, I think,really why pavilion for me is just been life changing because I've met I've metso many great people that have had an influence on me. I love it. Thank you. Those are all great suggestions and yeah, it's a powerof community. You get to meet all of these incredible people that have hada positive impact. And Yeah, you've listed some of my favorites in thatlist as well. Certainly Pete Crosby, Munya, Hannah God free, allof those are incredible folks. Tom There's people out there that are listening.They're probably inspired by what you've shared. If folks want to get in touchwith you, what's the what's the best way? Yeah, so you cangive me on Linkedin. So obviously linkedincom...

...forward slash in board. Tom Glassonor you can get me on email. So Tom at scale wisecom awesome.Tom, thanks so much for being a on the show and we'll talk toyou on Friday for Friday fundamentals. I've really enjoyed it. Thanks SAM,thanks Tom, everybody. Sam Jacobs Great Conversation with Tom Glass and Tom's builta really impressive and exciting company called scale wise. That's out of London,but but certainly has global expansion plans and and he's also just been doing salesleadership for twenty years and he dropped a lot of nuggets. Perhaps there's twothat I that I thought were really, really interesting. The first is he'sbeen through a lot of companies. That Tom and due diligence is just soimportant. He talked about, you know, some of the fits and starts withterrible bosses, with terrible founders, with founders that were fighting each other, that were trying to oust each other. The trick here is due diligence.The trick here is doing your research and doing your homework. You stillcan't prevent negative outcomes, but you do need to do the work and youneed to do the work on backchannel references. You need to really have a fullyformed understanding. And again, even then, even then it's still mightgo wrong, but at least know that you didn't. It's not because youdidn't do the research into your homework. This is your career. You needto take control of your career. You need to take agency over your career. It's not happening to you. You are in control of it. Somake sure that you take the necessary steps, do your due diligence, ask theright questions and that you are prepared for any new job that you take. The second big thing idea was this was this framework that Tom put inat good Lord where he removed targets. He said to the team, youmake your own targets. Here's what the requirements of the job, the basicresponsibilities of the job are, here's where the business needs to go. Butwithin that framework you take control. You tell us what you're going to do, you tell us how you want to be held accountable, you tell uswhat your goals are and how we can help you meet them. I thinkthat's really interesting and he's were you know, he referenced Dan Pink's Book Drive andDan Pink has that famous thing about what motivates people and engages people andit is autonomy, mastery and purpose. And autonomy's a big one. Right, being left alone. You don't, you know, like being told whatto do all the time. Probably want task for help, but you wantto feel like the decisions that you make in your life for your own andthat you have agency and you have control, and that is the thing that empowersyou and gives you energy, at least in my experience, in Tom'sexperience. So thought, you know, consider, consider removing, removing quotasand having your reps choose their quotas and then, I guess you can confirmif they add up to a goal that works for the company. But prettyradical, radical innovation there and and I thought really interesting. So that's it. Before we go, we want to thank our sponsors. We have,we have three sponsors we want to thank. The first is outreach. Check outtheir unleash summit series. GO TO SUMMIT DOT outreach. That I oh. This year's seam is a rise of revenue, innovators. Also, ofcourse, pavilion. Pavilion members get hired twenty two percent more quickly, getpaid fourteen percent more than their peers and...

...promoted thirty percent more frequently. Unlockedthe career of your dreams by applying today at join PAVILIONCOM. And finally,Demo Stack. The product demo was make or break for your deal, buttailoring the story is tedious work. See how world class sales are. ExUse demo stack to accelerate revenue at Demo STATCOM. Reminder, if you wantto get in touch with me, you Ken Sama, join Pavilioncom or linkedincom. The word in for slash on the word and then the four slash,then Sam f Jacobs, and I'll get back to you. All right,everybody, I'll talk to you next time. Thanks for listening.

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