The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

191: Grow Your Startup Organically Outside of a Major Market


In this episode of the Sales Hacker Podcast, we have Brian Trautschold, Cofounder and COO at Ambition, a 10-year-old sales gamification startup based in Tennessee, not the Bay Area or Atlanta. Join us for an inspiring conversation about perseverance and organic growth outside of a major market.

What You’ll Learn 

  1. Perseverance is the key to gaining traction
  2. Benefits to growing your company in Chattanooga
  3. Baking an ecosystem of encouragement into your company
  4. Why gamification is such a powerful concept in sales 

Show Agenda and Timestamps 

  1. About Brian Trautschold & Ambition[2:15]
  2. The power of gamification [7:00]
  3. Advantages to growth outside a major market [15:30]
  4. Using available tools to strengthen culture [22:31]
  5. Paying it forward [28:25]
  6. Sam’s Corner [31:05]

One, two, one, three, three, pay everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the sales occer podcast. Today on the show we've got Brian troutsch old. Brian is the cofounder and CEO of ambition, which is a really amazing company. They've been around quite a while, but they are working in the space of helping companies enhance and define their culture through better sales coaching, through sales gamification and and really building an ecosystem of encouragement, which is how they frame it, and it's fantastic and they're doing really, really well. They just raised a big ground. So it's a great conversation. Before we get there, three sponsors to tell you about. The first is outreach. Today's podcast is sponsored by outreach, that Io. outreaches the first and only engagement and intelligence platform built by revenue innovators for revenue innovators. Outreach allows you to commit to an accurate sales forecasting, replace manual processes with real time guidance and unlock actionable customer intelligence that guides you and your team to win. More often, traditional tools don't work in a hybrid sales world. Find out why outreach is the right solution. At get your pens out, click dot outreach that Io Forzo MPC that you arel again and against. If you're walking on the sidewalk, stop walking, get out your phone, type it into the note section. Clicked out, out, reached, IO, forward, slash thirty MPC. We're also brought to you by pavilion. Pavilion is the key to getting more out of your career. Our private membership gives you access to thousands of like minded peers, dozen of courses in schools for Pavilion University and over Onezero work books, template scripts and playbooks to accelerate your development. This December, meaning as you're listening, pavilion is partnering with Ecology to Plant Fiftyzero trees and try and remove some carbon from the atmosphere. For every member that's joined, that joins that's referred by another member, will plant two hundred and fifty trees per persons. That's five hundred trees. So help us plant fiftyzero trees this holiday season and sign up using a friends referral link. Finally, vidyard. Vid Yard is the best way to sell in a virtual world, whether you need to connect with more leads, qualify more opportunities or close more deals. VIDYARDS video messages make it easy record your Webcam, your screen or both to make prospecting videos, follow ups product Demos another communication that drives virtual selling. Try vidyard for free by signing up at vidyardcom. Forwards Lash free. Now let's listen my conversation with Brian Trout Sholt. Everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the salesacker podcast. Today on the show we're incredibly excited to have Brian Trout shold. Brian is the CO founder and the Chief Operating Officer at ambition, which is a really exciting company based out of Chat Nooga, Tennessee. It's the leading sales and gate Gamification, Sales Gamification and coaching platform. Brian spent ten long years in startup land. He's cofounded two other companies besides ambition, and he's also an angel investor and invests in supports the Tennessee and the southeastern start up ecosystem. Brian, welcome to the show. Yeah, thank you, Sam. I appreciate you. Appreciate you having me. We're excited to obvious. So I gave a little bit of your overview when I when I was talking about your bio, but what we...

...really want to do is give you an opportunity to tell us a little bit about ambition. We call that your baseball card. But so you know, and I've known jared for a really long time, but tell us about ambition, tell us about the company and sort of some of the context and background. Yeah, well, I think it's it's really useful to start in the background. I think, and I'm sure you've lived this life. To you, but I started my career as a, you know, a sales rep which really meant I was a, you know, hustler on the phone, making a lot of dials for really large technology company, is probably a lot of us did in our in our world, and what I found twelve years ago was that the systems in place to manage people, to recognize people, to really, you know, ensure that you were high performing, we're really lacking. You've got, like, you know, these traditional set of training programs, you've got really archaic reporting and a lot of organizations and then you've got like the Gong sitting on the manager's desk. This this before gone with company existed night, like the physical the actual thing that you beat. Yeah, the gone with the Malot next to it and it was, you know, as a as a young person, you coming out of college like it was kind of shocking. And so what what admission, I think, helps us solve and hopes to solve, is that, you know, we've been believe people have all of this put to potential. We're trying to unlock that, especially when people who are facing the customers, because, as as our customers understand, that's where the magic happens. If you can give those people to be excited, motivated, engaged continually developing, they're going to grow your business and they're going to be great champions for your customers. And so that's the problem we solved. We do that with with software and a series of tools to help managers and sales leaders drive the performance of those reps and make sure they stay with the company. So it's been a lot of fun. It's a year journey right now, but couldn't be more excited about the company today. So where is the where is the the company and its growth trajectory in terms of like how many people, Rough Arr range, how much money, if you raise that kind of stuff? So we can get a sense of like where you are in this progression. Yeah, well, I mean it's changing every day. I'd say we're in the one of those periods of just rapid growth and rapid change. I think we came into two thousand and twenty one, or I'll forty three people. I think today, which is a Friday when we're recording this, there were there eighty one people at ambition, you know, so closing in on doubling for the year and headcount. The company is really taken off as far as growth. I'd say in the middle of two thousand and twenty things were things were scary, as probably was for everyone. A lot was happening and changing. But I think as people have gone one remote or hybrid or tried to figure out how they replicate or or, you know, put in place new coaching processes, put it place new ways to engage their employees, well we do, is become really important, especially, I think, it larger organizations, where culture can be really...

...challenging when it's not all small and you're not, you know, kind of in the same philosophical room. And so the growth has been awesome. You know, we're about we're closing it on some major milestones for us and we just raised the big round of funding as she was one of those miles. Says, we raised fifteen million dollars from a great equity firm called premise capital, based in Atlanta, and that just closed in October, which is last month and actually a month and a little bit ago. But you graduates. Great. Yeah, the company is raised twenty, just over twenty one million dollars total, which is different from a lot of peers in our our ecosystem. But you know, we've gone from a company that I think was very focused on being at least close to break even and in the last two years, as as like the Marcus Signals, I think I've pushed us. It's it's time to grow, it's time to poor more if you want to that fire, so to speak, and promise has been an amazing partner of the last couple of month since we've done that. That's awesome. So yeah, I think you know, you mentioned when we were chatting offline, it's been an extremely long ten years that you've been working on startups and and, like I said in the Intro, I've known about ambition for probably exactly, you know, as long as you all have been been around and when I was first introduced. You know, it was really presented to me as essentially like fantasy football for salespeople. It was. It was only about gamification, it wasn't really about culture and it wasn't really about coaching. Walk us through because I just think, especially because now you're finally and I don't mean this in it, I mean it's just a testament to perseverance, I think, because y'all are finally like growing, probably at the rate that you want to be growing at, but it's been it's been a while that you've been working on this walk through like the peaks and valleys in the journey that you've been on over the last couple of years as you've been focused on building this business and specifically how the kind of like the vision or the value proposition is expanded. Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate you say that, because I do think, you know, jared and Travis might to co founders. I think one of the things that we have in spade, is in spades, is perseverance and kind of that grip factor, and I think that, you know, companies that are forged that way are really challenging to compete with, and I think that gives us an edge in a lot of ways. It's in our Dada at this point. But same you mention. You said it like that was the pitch in two thousand and fourteen. Fantasy fantasy football for your sales team, or faith through fantasy football for sales, which is, I will say, a pretty good intro conversation, like people will at least two in for that when you cold call them. But it's not like. It's not the need to have sustainable platform that every revenue team is like living and breathing. If we're being honest, gamification is great. Gamification as a concept is extremely powerful. As a Peloton writer, as a person who checks their Apple Watch, like all those things, if from my activity rings, like all those...

...things are gave a fine. I check my Delta Sky bials like every week, even to being an endemic even, yeah, care when they when they when they bumped out my status. That really made my day. Yeah, they gave us all. They gave me platinum for another year, even though I didn't fly anywhere. Exactly like that. You know that, like we know that right. That's givefcation in you know, in practice, and the reality that is like that's one. I'd say. That's gamification and creating that engagement in that in that way is it's just one tool in the tool kid or one Arrow in the quiver. And what we believe, and what we believed now for a few years, is that there's a lot more, a lot bigger problems to solve, and I mentioned that with the coaching because you know, I think I'll get to your question this in this response. But we did when built a bission. Originally it was we as we built a really powerful, really smart metric processing engine, which is a nerdy way of saying like we could take in all of this important data about what your reps are doing in a variety of different places they're doing it. That could be sales for CRM, that could be sales loft or outreach. That could be gone, that could be enterprise order, major bent system, whatever it is like. These things all are running in parallel and a lot of organizations and we can bring in the data from those and give people a really holistic view, three hundred and sixty view of their their folks performance, centered around the actual individuals, the teams, and then the context of what those teams and individuals are trying to do, like the goals and objectives they have and I say all that because you know one that's pretty hard, like when you actually get into organizations. And he talked to, you know, leaders of sales enablement teams or sales productivity or sometimes it's in a BI team. They're doing like really complex stuff in tableau or demo or looker to do that and they were reporting it back to leaders or frontline managers at a much more inconsistent basis, maybe weekly, maybe every other week or there's not getting it. And you know, early stage admission, we're building this gamification platform or trying to power contests or incentives around a series of metrics. To do this fantasy football thing. Well, we basically had to build build this really robust data platform, and so we have all of these metrics that people care about. We have all this insight and context to their performance that people care about and a credit to the customers. A lot of folks were like man, this would be really useful for my one hundred and one or where this would be really useful for my performance review or you know, we're creating goal we're creating contests here. Can you tell me, like how impactful this contest was? You can you? Can you tell me what the change in this reps performance has...

...been since we started doing x, Y or Z. Those are big questions and you know, as we kind of, let's say, serve more and more folks in especially the enterprise and uppermid market space, we realize how much value that had to those businesses. And so this, you know, this journey or this evolution, I think, has been really driven by the voice of the customer and US trying to, you know, continually solve more problems for both VP or director of sales or director of sales development, head of customer success, people who manage teams with pretty distinct metrics, and then give more tools to the front of my manager to make changes to drive the outcome, because they want their reps to be successful, they want them to hit quota or whatever the metric is, and you know, a lot of times they need actionable insights and tools to do that. Where there are times when you thought about giving up or or quitting in a you know, it's it. I asked that because you know, when you're working on an early stage company, it's not it's not super lucrative from a cash perspective most of the time and you know, I know that you've got kids and you got a family. What was it like psychologically over the last couple of years as you were trying to get this business to where it is now and, you know, finally having clothes like a great round and you got y'all are growing on the way to twenty million. It's really, really exciting. But what was the psychological impact of, you want, working on this over the last ten years? Well, you know what I have, like you mentioned, I have an amazing family and I now have three kids, said by third son, congratulation. We yeah, thank you, three weeks ago this week. So first of all, you know, like I having an incredible partner of my wife, who has distressed my life in a lot of ways, like sometimes also stressing it out a little bit, but over unbalanced, destressing a lot of things. And you know, I think the bigger thing this is, you know, anyone who's considering started company or is doing it, you've got to have great founder, Co founders, like who you trust implicitly and who you know you can rely on, and that makes it. That makes it, you know, I think, survivable, because you're right, like there's a lot of it's a roller coaster every time something great happens, you like Oh shit, what's about to happen? It's bad, like you know, it can't be all roses all the time. But if you feel like hey, I've got a really good cofounder or founders with me, I trust them, I know they have my best interest at heart, it's something you can do. And so we'd started two companies before admission together. That didn't go well. So, like, we've been through some shit before. We had really good investors who could you know? I'd say, continue to encourage us to do it. And you know, we talked about this, like there's there's this constant highlight real whether it is, you know, a new rep starting and then closing a deal quickly or, you know, new engineer coming in and talking about like wow, this is like a really robust platform. Of coming from some other great software company, I don't even see this stuff. Those are the little things that, you know, they just they... it up and it's been doing this long enough to see people have kids who are growing up or, you know, building a life round ambition, like it's pretty special. And so I don't think there's ever a moment I can I can tell you with certainty. There's never been like a man. That's time to hang us up, because there's always a lot more good than there's been shitty days. That's awesome. That's awesome. What's what's it like building a coup? You know y'all are it's not just E. didn't even move to Atlanta. You know you're you're in Chattanooga. What was it like building a start up, and I mean that. Y'All have worked on three startups now, so and it seems like you are committed to the yea Chattanooga, you know, startup scene. What has it been like building a company? I'm sure there's disadvantages, but I bet there's advantages to in building a company outside of, you know, one of these big major markets. I feel there's outside hell. I appreciate you dropping that Y'all on me a couple times too. I see y'all all the time. I'm from Virginia, so you know it's not so far. You're a UVA Guy, right, I am a UVA guy. Yeah, I there. I used to say this this phrase and it's like we were man. Now I'm like, I'm black. I been like we're isolated, but we're not like completely like cut off from cut off from Human Gott, you know, like what one of the things that I think was very useful. So ambission went through Y combinator, we went through I common there in two thousand and fourteen. We raise the seed round. Coming out of that we had a lot of momentum for building fantasy football for sale, seems. And you know, one of the best things that I think we ever did was we're walking around pioneer way, which is this little street next to why commentator's office, with Paul Graham, who it was his last class, and he's he's talking us through. This is his super already. Yeah, I mean I remember this vividly. And where this you know, these guys who kind of like just shut down another company. We're going through Y see. So you y'all are living in San Francisco at that point. Is that right? Yeah, Mount View. This is before why I see. It moved up to San Francisco. So this is in mountain view and we were there for about six months, like during the YC program and shortly after while we were raising the seed round. And he asked, he had to two profound things that are relevant to this conversation. One is like if you're not going to buy the domain ambitioncom, just change the name, like which is kind of a wild take today because a lot of people have notcom domains. But in two thousand and fourteen that was like those pretty shocking advice because it was very expensive domain. And then the other question was, okay, well, you guys have been doing this, you know doing why? See here you're got a couple people still tried to go. When are you going to move the company here? And I remember, you know, having this conversation that night at the rental like House that we...

...had an amount view of, like okay, what are we going to do? And it was pretty resounding for the three of us, like we don't need to move the company here. We serve customers who are not just in the bay area. We started with a lot of a lot of focus on our early customers were in logistics and like three Pel logistics, which is very middle America industry. They don't care where our office is and, you know, goes back to like we decided to come back. We thought that the majority of our customers for the for at least the initial period, would be kind of that flyover country type businesses which was probably true, and the thing that I think it allowed us to do. You mentioned being in this company for for eight years. We didn't have the pressure to raise a ton of money and have a ton of growth right out of the gate. We could build and we could kind of marinate on what was working, we could listen to the market, and so I think if ambition had been a company with us moving to San Francisco versus, versus staying in Chad Nuga, it would have been much more expensive, we would have a much higher degree of pressure to find immediate success or media product market fit, and I think that the company wouldn't have made it. I think the ability to extend, really take time to build a platform that's robust and extremely, you know, extremely, I would say, flexible for our customers. It takes time and and ultimately I think we were able to find a more important product market fit than if we had to sprint to at least an additional one in the first, you know, call a year or two while we were if we move to San Francisco. That's a great take. What's it like? You mentioned you, you, you know you. You were sort of running it close to break even, running the business close to break even and now you flipped to burning. It sounds like. How does that feel? As you know a group of people that have been doing this a long time, because I speaking from personal experience. You know, we were running it, my business, pavilion, for profitability and now we're burning. You know, it's still it. Now we're running it for a break even from profitability and even that and some months we burn I don't know, a hundred grand, even though we raise twenty five million. It still feels weird. That feels yeah, I guess. How does it free for you guys? I really appreciate you saying that because I think what I think. We're probably very similar in that philosophy. You know, I think that there's different signals and I'm sure that you know with the fundraise you all did, and I can't get to a linked in a profile that doesn't have like pavilion member on it right now, like everyone I feel like I talked to is in you know, I think that. I think it feels, a little bit, you know, uncomfortable, but probably it's probably good uncomfortable in that you know personally, and I'm sure you are the similar way. Like once the signals in the business are being allowed enough where it's like hey, this is really working. Like pick a random example, like sales development is just working great, like everyone who comes in is ramping quickly and they're hitting their number and they're, you know, eager..., you know, continue that, like it almost doesn't make sense not to start adding more and I know that. I mean there's companies that I think can fool themselves into those signals or convince themselves those signals are there. Another side for us is, you know, you continue, you start winning enterprise customers, you start to have these large contracts and long term contracts and you start realizing, like man, there's a lot more we could do with this customer or we could, you know, we can go get ten of these because of X, Y Z factor, which means you need to invested in engineering and customer support and customer success, which are not immediate payoffs, but but you know, you can kind of foresee how they're going to work out in a few quarters. And so that's been I think that's been a challenge for us as founders, going from a very constrained environment to a less constraint environment. Ultimately, and I wouldn't say this to anyone. I'm sure you all have a great leadership team, but you know, surrounding yourself as a founder or founders or, you know, executive with really smart people makes makes the decisions a lot easier, makes it makes it feel a little bit less daunting to say, hey, we're going to we're going to really accelerate some of the spending, because it's not just you and your own head making those making that business case. That's I love that perspective. We're almost at the end of our time together, but both one of the questions I did want to ask you was just about culture, because I know ambition is working on culture. That's part of what. That's better what. You helped the liver in many senses and we've got this this world where it was really funny because I don't know if you read Fred Wilson, but you know on Thanksgiving Day he writes this blog post and he says, you know, I'm so grateful that we finally learned how to manage covid and we're out of it and you know, we've got the tools and the and the resources necessary. which was exactly the same day that they announced that Omicran was in South Africa and spreading across the world. So I guess the point is it's starting to feel like this world like that we're not going to have clear certainty on on a lot for a while, for a long time potentially, particularly as there's more mutations and etc. And so how do you think about culture and what advice do you give to companies that are struggling to figure out should we be all remote? Should we be in the office? Are we hybrid? How do we make sure that, if we do go to all remote, that we don't lose a sense of ourselves that is still a fun place to work? What's your advice and perspective on that and maybe how does ambition help solve that problem? Yeah, well, it's certainly ongoing complexity. She like I wouldn't, I wouldn't pretend to give people advice on what their company should do because ultimately I think you've got to read the Rim under employees and be safe, whatever the whatever the case may be. As far as our customers go, you know, we're seeing we're serving really large customers, fortune five hundred and...

...fortunate one hundred customers who have thousands of sellers. Typically globally and they may most of them, I should say, used to be in a, you know, an onsite model, so they would have sales centers globally. They may be in ten major cities in the US or they maybe in fifty major cities with the smaller locations, and that would be like your traditional inside sales for you know, sales of alopment people in some of those offices, account management and on. You know, you've been in these environments and if you're if you've been in sales for, you know, probably more than a few years, you've seen it like it was. The boiler Ram bottel, the boilery model, had a lot of I'd say rituals that even today we all kind of Rely On for managing and coaching sales people. That's you walking down the big open floor plan with lots of people on the phone. You're able to kind of hear how calls are going, you're able to have a debrief with someone right away. Positive reinforcement is very easy, like as simple as the high five or those stupid Gong thing on the desk, not the real gong product, which I think is great. Like those things are all gone and like you used to go get coffee or you say you know when to do a quick check in with someone, talk about pipeline. You like walk to the coffee machine or you go walk out and get lunch, while all that's basically broken. Those rituals don't work anymore and the way that people were doing management has to change. And so, you know, we're finding these companies who would rag and recruit based on how great the office culture is and how great the environment is to come work. That was like a selling point of these companies. It just doesn't exist anymore, and I think that sense of community, that sense of, you know, being a part of something and being aligned to the organization has really changed. And so when we talk about culture of people, it can't be forced, it can't be like hey, when you do something, well, say, I'm come bring the Gong by my desk, like no one wants pet and it doesn't the opportunity to do it is is there anymore. So we have to, you know, use utilize the tools we have, we have to automate these things, we have to be smarter about it and we have to really send the signals from, you know, from the systems, and this is one of the things that the admission does to the people who are going to coach on it, manage on it, recognize celebrate it, whether that's a manager, whether that's a a VP of sales, whether that's their entire team, to create awareness, because I think that, you know, as we've gone highbred, remote whatever, it's become very isolating and when you're when you're isolated, when you're in your apartment or house and you're making a ton of calls or doing a ton of demos or talking to customers all day, if it's going well or not, you're still by yourself. You want to feel like you're part of something. You want to feel like you're, you know, adding to the to the company, you're contributing, people are recognizing and seeing what you're doing. And so one of the funny things about internal ambition story. You know, fourteen or whatever it is, eighteen months ago, we sell provit. You know, one of our products. It's on TV's and has alerts and...

...leaderboards and metrics and stuff. Those TVs wouldn't be in the non sales areas typically, like we wouldn't put one by the engineering team or something, but we have lots of alerts that fire off into other systems now email, slack, Microsoft teams, and it could be as simple as Sam just reach this goal, or could be you know, Brian just had his best week ever in terms of closing. Something like that, something cool. You know. Now that's happening virtually, and so when those alerts go off, the whole company knows about it. Like we're creating this awareness, in this sense of recognition, and we call it ecosystem of encouragement. That goes way beyond just the sales or sales development or revenue team. Like the whole company's tuning in and then they're reacting, their collaborating, their celebrating each other success and it feels like more of a cousive environment, I think, even than it did before it was just on the sales floor, you know, two years ago. So you know, we're trying to figure out and work with companies to create that cohesion, to bring all of those important signals into one place and then let people react, let people act on those things. You know, high five their teammates, whether it's virtual or in real life, and that's, I think, really important now that these organizations have kind of decentralized in those cases. I love that, I love that example and I love that phrase ecosystem of encouragement. So that's awesome. Brian. We're almost at the end of our time together. One of the things we like to do in this last bit is pay it forward a little bit and figure out who are people or books or ideas or podcasts that has influenced you that we think that you think we should know about. So it could be a great investor, could be Paul Graham, it could be it could be you know as John Barrows, it could be any book you've read, it could be a movie scene. But when you think about things that you think the world should know about that have influenced you, what comes to mind? Your throwing all these people who aren't like enough to have met in some way that I that I don't want to not say now. Like you know, John Barrows has an amazing podcast. Love John Paul Grahams amazing to friend. Wilson is a great, great writer. But so this one's topical for me or very recent. I just read winners dream, winners dream, which is by bill McDermott, who who's now the CEO of service. Now he's previously the CEO of sap and I think he started as a salesperson at Xerox, if I recall the beginning of the book. But winners dream, it's it's I'd say it's a great bugs. It's actually read by him. If you get the audio version and it you know, it kind of goes through like this, this path of that a lot of us have been on, which is going from a you know, a fresh new seller, whether you're coming out of out of college or from a different career, you know, and he's literally selling doortodoor sally like copying machines for Xerox and now he's been CEO at some of the...

...biggest software companies in the world. But it's just inspiring. I think it's a lot of really practical advice and it's a great book. It's good listen, I would say, too awesome. That's awesome, Brian. If if boks are listening and they want to get in touch with you, maybe they want to buy ambition, maybe they want to learn more about your Jurney, maybe they're in Chattanooga and want to figure out how they can start in a company near you. What's the best way to get in touch with you? Yeah, I'd love. I'd love to connect on linked in. I think I think I'm the only Brian Trout Schild on linked in, so please find me here. I think there's only two of us in the world actually, and we're I think we're related. I think we're like second cousins. But also happy to connect on on twitter and, of course, please, you know, find me at Ambitioncom, which Paul Graham kind of forced us to buy. I'd love to hear from you'd love to help out however I can. Awesome. Thanks, brand thanks so much for joining us on the salesacer podcast and we're going to talk to you on Friday for Friday fundamentals. All right. Thanks Sam. Hey everybody. Sam's corner, Sal Sacer podcast. As you know, great conversation with Brian Trout shold. A couple things that I pulled from it. First of all, perseverance. As I mentioned, I got to marry to know jared, one of his other cofounders, way back when I was working at a company called axial and and they've been doing this for a really, really long time and and working on it and persevering and now they're seeing growth past ten million an Rr on the way to twenty, raised fifteen million dollars and really seeing traction and it's really exciting and it's just a testament to perseverance, as a testament to sticking with it. Now, bullet point number two. One of the ways they could stick with it is because they weren't based in a major market. They were able to keep costs slow and grow organically because they didn't move to the bay area and they didn't move to New York City and they didn't even move to Atlanta. They're all in Chattanooga, Tennessee, where they're drinking bird bourbon and righting lines of code and encouraging reps to be better and to do better and and it's just interesting in this fully in this remote world that we live in, where we've all got access to, you know, hopefully Wifi, into computers and technology and, as a consequence, to each other. Maybe you don't need to be in San Francisco as much. Maybe you can be in Detroit, maybe you can be in Chatanooga, maybe you can be in Boise Idahope, which I hear is beautiful but have never been to. I'm in Tucson, Arizona as I record this and I've never been here and it's actually quite nice. I saw a guy in the in and out that I was at yesterday with a gun on his belt, like holstered on his belt like, I guess, Private Carrie laws. That was weird, but lether than that, I mean, maybe it's not weird. Hey, whatever. I felt scared. But my point is, like, there's lots of places to build a company now that we're all connected, and one of the benefits of that is is to enable you to keep your costs low, which can enable you to find the time to find product market fit. So something to think about. And finally, ecosystem of encouragement. How do you maintain culture in a remote world? Find ways to communicate and find people in your workforce where they are.

That's email, that's slack, that's Microsoft teams, that's text messaging, and celebrate people and maybe building automatic triggers and notific cation so that you can praise people. Everybody needs praise. I'm always I'm always I'm a sports fan and I'm always shocked. It's just so weird when when coaches walk in and you know they're being interviewed and they're like, well, I don't have to give them motivational speech, because these are these are grown women or grown men. It's like I thought that what does that matter? Everybody needs some motivated everybody needs encouragement and praise, and maybe there's a few people that have so much inner drive and but but most people don't. So any right, great conversation. The hotel room where I'm staying, the AC just kicked on. Sorry for the background noise, but if you want to reach me, you can linkedincom forwards last the word in for its last. Sam F Jacobs, you can email me. Sama joined pavilioncom thanks to our sponsors, outreach, pavilion and, of course, fidyard. FIDYARD is really doing cool things, so give them a shot. You can sign up for free at vidyardcom forwards last free. Remember to give us five stars on wherever you find your your podcast, spotify or itunes. I hope you're safe, I hope you're sound, I hope you got some plans for the holidays. Secular, not on whatever religion you are, we support you, but just make some time to step back, to take stock of what you did in two thousand and twenty one and hopefully look ahead to an even better two thousand and twenty two. All right, I'll talk to you next time.

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