The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

173. Training Leaders Who Create Other Leaders w/ Keith Daw


In this episode of the Sales Hacker Podcast, we have Keith Daw, VP of GSD and Trainer at McDonell Consulting Group, where he ‘Gets Stuff Done’ and teaches the Sandler Training methodology. Join us for a great conversation about how training has changed in the current landscape, overlooked but essential qualities of leaders, and how to apply the four S’s in training.

What You’ll Learn

  1. Know why you’re training your team before you start
  2. Keep the four S’s in mind when setting goals
  3. Create a personal, customized learning path
  4. Look for leaders with vulnerability and professional humility

Show Agenda and Timestamps

  1. Keith Daw & McDonell Consulting [3:21]
  2. Training during the last 15+ months [10:43]
  3. Dos and don’ts on training the 4 S’s [14:04]
  4. Key ingredients for great leaders [20:17]
  5. Paying it forward: shout-outs [25:14]
  6. Sam’s Corner [28:12]

One, two, one, three, three. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the SALESACER podcast. Today on the show we've got Keith Dalk. Keith is the vice president of getting shit done over at McDonald Consulting Group and Sandler Training, and we talked all about the right approach to training your team, white needs to be a habit and why there needs to be repetition. It's not a moment in time, it's an ongoing process. So it's a great conversation. And before we get there, of course, we want to thank our sponsors. The first sponsors outreach, our which has been a long time sponsor this podcast, and they just launched a new way to learn. Outreach. On outreaches the place to learn how outreach does outreach. Learn how the team follows up with every lead in record time after virtual events and turns them into revenue. You can also see how outreach ones outcomp splace manages reps and so much more using their own sales engagement platform. Had to outreach oo Ford Slash on outreach to see what they've got going on. We're also sponsored by pavilion. Pavilion is the key to getting more out of your career. A private membership connects you with the network of thousands of like minded peers and resources where you can happen to leisure of opportunities, training, mentorship and other services made for high growth leaders like you. Unlock your professional potential with a pavilion membership. Leaders at every stage can get started today at joining Pavilioncom. Finally, blue board cash for rewards feel like a slap in the face, do they? That's why you've got to check out blue board experiential sales incentives and president's Club trips. Blueboard is the world's leading experiential sales recognition platform that offers top reps their choice of hand curated experiences. From skydiving to courtside tickets, Michelin Star dining to five start spot escapes, there's something for everyone. For President's Club, blue board offers individual Bucketts, trips and luxury home goods, from pellaton bikes to swimming with whale sharks in Cobbo, Yoga cheets and Bali the chasing the northern lights. Treat your reps like the Rock Stars they are. After they pick their favorite experience. Winning reps will partner with a dedicated blueboard concierge who will plan all their logistics and itinerary so they don't have to lift a finger. Check them out at PODCAST DOT blue boardcom. PODCAST DOT blue boardcom and get your free demo without further do let's listen my conversation with Keith Daw. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the SALESACER podcast. Today on the show we've got Keith Daw Keith is the vice president and a trainer with McDonald Consulting Group, an authorized licensee of Sandler training, with the State of the art training center in Tauson, I would assume, house in Maryland, but he will correct me if not. As well as full virtual training capabilities, he places his focus and energy on amplifying professionals, teams and organizations in the areas of leadership, sales, strategic customer care, organizational excellence and especially that human communications thing where many sometimes struggle. For nearly nine years, Daw has served a dual role of both producer as well as practitioner and intentionally incorporates many of his own lessons learned into his talks and trainings. Keith, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. We're excited to have you. So is the training center in House in Maryland? That's correct. That's correct, just north of Boltimar. Awesome where you based, by the way, and that area fantastic. Well, I'm from the the DC area originally, so you know whereby. I was there for opening day of Camden yards many years ago when I was as well. I mean to stay for sure, and it was supposed to be there last night, except Hurricane Elsa decided it had some other plans and they cancel the game. Yeah, that I'm saying what I think might be hurricane something out here in New York, because the wind is scaring me. So anyway, Keith, we like to start with your baseball card, where we give you an opportunity. I read the Bayou, I read the Intro, but your vice president of GSD. WHAT DOES GSD stand for? Well, if I'm keeping a PG, I will say get stuff done. I am a very actionable, resorts oriented, process oriented person, and so I think this one of the things that the clients and others that appreciate is it's one thing to go to training or listen to somebody and here's some stuff. It's different on how do I actually apply this to my rural world jobs and get results as a...

...result. Got It, I understand now. And so, McDonald Consulting Group, tell us a little bit about and as a licensee of Sandler, tell us what you all do. Give us a little bit of context and then, obviously would love to learn about you. Know your background, okay, so many people, not buddy, but many people know of Sandli training with sales and sales leadership training. Some have seen other areas that that it works, training centers across the world, and so the the model, you know, that authorized licensing, essentially a franchise in those brick and mortar training centers around the country, around the world. Focus is going to be, as you mentioned, leadership at all levels. Right now there's a lot of companies that are in that start up, the scale up mode and they're thinking, okay, I'm proficient at this, but I don't know the first thing about that. My need some assistants, next Gen leaders. That's the biggest thing. You know, got a lot of boomers and other season pros. They're looking around their organization trying to figure out, okay, which, if any, of these knuckleheads might be able to run my company and not take it and proactively what might I need to provide for them so that they're set for success. I've written articles kind of equating it to how baseball teams, Major League teams, they have their farm clubs and their systems to know if you're going to go down from the first one when you're nineteen, when and if you're going to get to the major so hopefully, when we call upon you'll be ready. Building those kind of processes and developing that training from a leadership standpoint, probably one of the things people don't know how much we do on that area. But if you go into the sales training and no matter how great and awesome it is, if the leadership is defunct or it's broken or anything, chances are the sales training that we wi end up doing won't work. That sale part certainly can go from any number of levels. What ares the traditional be to be? Whether it's channel partner, enterprise sales, it's helping companies understand, first of all, who is that ideal client that you're looking for? What is that go to marketing marketing strategy, and, by the way, let's not put marketing out there on the side and let's work in tandem and find out what how that works best, but then shortening the sales cycle, making certain you don't sound like that telemarketer who calls you right before dinner and all those all those stereotypes and all those fears that both sellers as well as prospects have, and ultimately focusing on do you want grocer revenue or do you want higher margins? And so a lot of times there's a lot of discovery before we ever get there. Customer Service. I think given what's going on over the last couple years in particular and the last year, more and more people are recognizing it's a lot cheaper to keep clients than it is to go get new ones. But when you look at the customer service team, sometimes the people with the least amount of experience who get paid the least amount of money and get the least amount of training or spending the most amount of time with your value customers and clients. So what could possibly go wrong there? And then I mentioned the communication. It's at the core of everything. David Sandler recognize people buy for a reason. There's a psychology on why people buy or don't buy. How do you create a conversation and communicate on a level that's relatable and personable to ultimately build that trust and then stay in a better chance, as long as you're technical, we proficient, you said, a better chance of closing that deal and beating your competitors, ideally without having give up marching in the process. Well, that's comprehensive. I've said it once through twice before. What's your background? How did you how long have you been doing this? What were you doing before? How did you get into this, this crazy world of sales and leadership training in the first place? Where to grow up? Help US place you in history. Okay, so to answer the first, I'll give the answer the last. I grew up in the Baltimore Metro area. That was in the Navy but finally got out and settle up here. So Kay through twelve in Baltimore, when to college in Pennsylvania, popped out. Work for a couple large companies or wellknown companies, both locally and nationally. Learned the hard way in some cases. You know, we think about leadership, the right ways to say... and do it. I had some really tough leaders, the pretty critical, pretty demanding, and then did well and moved up pretty quickly in those respective roles, but my own leadership style was mirroring what I'd been exposed to. Hindsight could have been. Should have done it differently and better. Then made a huge leap out in two thousand and ten. I moved out to Kansas City, Missouri. Work with a couple couple international firms out there, one in creating, creating and developing trade shows, corporate events, so all kinds of things we could tap into their if you forget to the sales part. But then I also work for international populations firm and that helped me cross and see where all of the challenges, where marketing blames customers are, marketing blames sales, sales blames marketing and the customer service is getting the heat of it all. Making certain that companies grow, building scale appropriately. And how does that's communicated mostly the strategists, mostly the the writer and the doer. But there's always, of course, new business drives the firm and started recognizing that. I wanted to take and parlay all this experience and sales experience I'd had in prior roles and I wanted to get more new business and be up there at the Monday morning meeting. Oh look what keiths just brought in. Instead, I was on the road twenty six weeks out of the year, working and doing great stuff for clients, and was essentially a massive billing apartment within it, within the firm. So we agree to disagree, and I did what most people did. I left and start on my own business, and it was a public relations firm. How I got into here, partly because of that stock market thing that happened O hundred and nine and beyond. started seeing some ripples, sort of recognizing as smart and successful as I thought I was and despite the strength the team in the BILLABOWLS, also started recognizing there were some blind spots, some gaps. Don't know what you don't know, as the expression goes, and a prospect and interestingly enough, introduced me to the current company I'm working with and we started figuring out different ways to work together and after about a year and a half of me being as a client, as the owner of a firm, I started recognizing that I kind of like this better than what I'm doing now, and also recognizing leaders, executives or those aspiring to be, as well as salespeople. If I've had the success I've had and I'm in this spot and I didn't know these A, B and c. How many other companies are out there that are going to struggle or walk off that cliff and they have no idea it's coming? So maybe if I can take my experience and my failures and put it into a proven format and brand, how many companies could I make a positive impact and save them from the huge financial as well as emotional loss? You mentioned in the bay a that there's a state of the art training facility in Towson. How did you all respond to Covid? What's been the experience for your business over the past fifteen months? Obviously I'm assuming it's moved to all digital, but I would also imagine maybe that that code was a potentially positive thing for your training business, because so many people needed to invest in training given that they couldn't see where their employees were all day. But how did how did you respond over the last fifteen or some months? So kind of kind of all of the all of the above. So because of the nature of what we do, I mean we're doing sales or leadership training. Not Everybody might be geographically convenient to drive to the training center. So there are times when we have leaders and sales people that are different regions or are different areas around the region, around the country. So we already had of virtual capabilities, cameras and monitors front and back. We already had these things set up. However, we might have twenty, five or thirty people in the training center on a Tuesday morning for a sales mastery and then maybe there's eight to ten that are joining us virtually. Then, of course, we needed to transition where for a period of time everything was one hundred percent virtual. So the technology was there, the familiarity of dealing with it was however, they're also needed to be a little bit of an adaptation on our part from a... because two dimensional. It can still be impactful, you can still make it entertaining, but you're missing a certain vibe. You're missing those little that you might hear when you're in the training center when somebody struggling. You can't necessarily do that over Zoom, particularly since some people are aren't as comfortable being on camera, so you can't see that fatal expression that they're clearly hating that thing that you're mentioning or confused on how to implement it. So we're spending a lot of times behind the scenes afterward to make certain that that flawless experience. And many people, I think their perception of virtual training prior to all of this was all right, my person is going to sign up for a Webinar, have somebody talked to them, they're going to play solitaire, play on the phone, not have their camera on, not be engaged, but they check the box and get their continuing education credits. So I think that was the perception. A lot of companies had a virtual training and so I think our biggest thing to overcome and we we put out a lot of complementary informational workshops on how to manage and sell appropriately given the considerations, and I think that generosity had people realize whoa when I mean I could do a breakout session, have working sessions, meet other peer right, and so it changed, I think some of ours with the educating people on what you thought virtual training was and what we're doing and how it should be. To the second part, you're correct. There are a lot of companies that realized that either A, they've been putting the insert training type here on the back burner and now they need it more than ever and I think the biggest hesitancy that some had were cash flow and I'm furlowing some people, but let me get my house in order, figure out what's going on, take care of my clients, and so we did see a rise in interest, a lot of questions, clients coming on. Some of our largest clients we've had over thirteen years came on during during covid because now it was critical time and I must have instead of a nice to have as some people look at training. Yeah, well, that makes a lot of sense. Let's dive into sort of the heart of the subject matter. You have a point of view on this thing called the for SS strategy, structure, staff and skills and how so many companies get it wrong and what the right companies do to focus on the right things. Walk US through that general framework and then specific the you know, to the point of the question. What do most companies get wrong? You know, you mentioned that you deal with a lot of companies and kind of scale up mode companies and especially given how much capital there is in the world right now, a lot of companies are flush with money, they got good balance sheets and they need to grow and they're trying to figure out how to do that in the right way. So when you see companies doing the forests right and the companies doing it wrong, what separates them? So give us an overread the framework and then the best ones versus the the ones that need help. Very good, very good. So, as you mentioned before at the opening, it's McDonald Consulting Group, not McDonald Training Group. However, because of the brand affiliation and the content were putting out, people will tipped. We reach out, Hey, I need and leadership training, sales training, custpers whatever they want the training. So I could say we're associated with the you know, the world's largest, best, this, that, whatever. Send over proposal and they sign it. We're often running training starts. Chances are that's going to be doomed to fail because I don't really know enough about what prompted it, what could work, what couldn't work and what their end goal is. So, as I say, putting on my business doctor hat and to say, okay, Sue Sam, a lot of people want that kind of training, but could be from completely different reasons. Let's talk about your strategy and just for the forsake of time here, if your plan is to to get mean and green and grow and be efficient because you want to have some kind of liquidity event. You know, you're just want to sell this thing to the first person whoever, in five years, the focus of how we implement the training and what are end goals along the lines and... air swissed to be, could become vastly different than somebody that says I think I'm onto something amazing and I want to build this over the next fifteen, twenty years and have some massive legs right. So the same core training will be involved in both scenarios, but how it's delivered and how it's used and again, what things were trying to accomplish along the way, could be completely different. And I don't know about you, I don't like to assume because I when I do I'm usually wrong and I don't like being wrong. So the four s's or my guideline to make sure I don't miss anything important and then have an embarrassing moment that I should have seen coming six, nine, twelve months down the road, when a company's made a huge investment in time, money resources and then at the same time, it might be the first time or recently where that executive because it could be a you know, all levels of sea suite or within an organization. Sometimes they don't have to take the time to have that introspective look into their business or it's been a while since they've revisited. So understanding that strategy helps them make sure they're aligned internally and then helps make sure that we're working with the right the right goal in mind. The structure could be hierarchy, could be how they go to market. Are you working through channel partners? Are you be to be or you direct a consumer? Are you a very a very flat organization? Are you geographically decentralized? Like there's a lot of these things, both from logistics as well as getting to that end goal. I need to understand as though I'm a dotted line on your or chart and that go to otherwise again, I could make a mistake or they don't know to share something with me which ultimately could impact the results of the training. Then the next thing is we'll move over to the staff, because if you want to do some training, I don't know anything about your people. I'm sure they're brilliant, I'm sure they're amazing human beings, but I don't know who's trainable and WHO's not. I don't know who's going to automatically be the hostages in the room and who are the ones that can't get enough. So let's talk through and in some cases we might need to evaluate, you know, their skill sets. Did you put them in the sales because, well, they've been around long enough and they didn't run fast enough, or to put them into scale sales because they truly have some some talent? Jim Collins Mentions in one of his books. You know, make sure you have the right people on the right seats of the bus. Key thought says, make sure they're on the right bus. Sometimes people who got you to where you are may not necessarily be getting you to that next level at all, or even in the same role. So now how do you have to value? We what they can do for your organization and maybe you shift them one way or another, or there's additional skills that they might need, need in order for them to go for that next phase of their journey and the company's journey. And then when we get to the skills, now it's this pretty much all lay it out. Okay, these people are going to be leaders. Here's the things that they're going to need to know. Let's put that into the training program so everybody's going to get some core things. So you have that internal playbook, but at the same time everybody has a learning path and a journey through this training, so that way it's as applicable as possible to them, they're most likely to pay attention and they also know how to actually use it for the results. So when you come across all of these companies and you've dealt with so many of them, you say so many organizations focus on the wrong things, enough and not enough focus on the right things. So what are the right things to focus on? On what are the wrong things to focus on? Well, I use the forest is as the guideline for that, because it's very easy to say, oh no, this is happening, go, go, go, cell, cell, cell, or it's the end of the quarter. But at the same time, are you selling a lot of stuff or just pushing the numbers because you want to be able to show whatever stakeholders, here's what we did. Are you doing it because you're trying to get a bonus, you know, or do you have an end goal in mind? We are trying to grow twenty percent over the next three to five years,... that way we could be position for acquisition right. So having the strategy and building your game plan instead of just go out there into your car, putting the GPS on random and hoping you get there right. That makes a lot of sense. When you think about, you know, you mentioned figuring out who's going to be a leader and WHO's not. How do you make that determination? And then what are I'm sure the audience would love to understand, when you think about a framework for leadership, port of the key ingredients that make great leaders? In your opinion, things and make great leaders probably the things that most of us aren't taught until we learned it the hard way. I think vulnerability and professional humility are too. That don't get spoken about enough. There could be pride issues or ego issues or I don't want to say or do that and have someone think I'm weak, you know, like those kind of a kind of head trash. Often Times, as in our head. However, those leaders that are most approachable, they're genuinely curious. I do a lot of sessions with companies on identifying your team's personal motivation, because once you understand the personal motivation, is a lot easier to build dual goals, get sales or leadership, whatever those Kpis or metrics might be. Now that employee is not just like, Oh, I got to go make four hundred cold calls. Now they look at it as every cold call I make gets me closer to achieving that goal and that leader who can create other leaders instead of looking to just have a bunch of followers and doers. They tend to be the most successful and I think those who are in their late s and early s with ASP rations to be a leader, those tend to be the ones that are that embrace the training the most because they recognize the good ones that they've had in the past and they recognize the leaders they definitely do not want to be when they grew up. Makes a lot of sense. Let me ask you. You know, we've got a few more minutes left and I know that there's more to it. I know that there's a lot to it, but we do hear folks here about Sandler all the time and I'm sure there's people that you know, they know it's a training framework but they don't know much more than that. If you were to sort of articulate some high level concepts that are core to sandler training. That might get people more intrigued or curious. How would you summarize or what are the key elements in your opinion, specifically around sales, of that Sandler and bodies are represents. I think a lot of organizations or people tend to look at training of any type as an event as opposed to an ongoing process. So you can spend ten grand send a couple people to a thing for a day to couple weeks or whatever, and you just think they're going to magically be healed. Sandler, David Sailor believe that the power of reinforcement to make certain. Just like a professional athlete, they go to practice every week, they go into the weight room every week. That way they're ready. They studied the playbooks, film, as the case might be, so they're ready to execute at the highest level. And even the most season people with all the championships still go through those core things. So understanding the the methodology and and that, how do we get consistent results, measurable results, shortened sales cycles, shortened performance, if it's in a leadership standpoint, a client of mind set. A couple of years ago, I don't go to church every Sunday because I forget what I believe. I go to church every Sunday because it keeps reminding me what I need to do and what I need to avoid, and so taking that same mindset into training. I'm in leadership training every week every month. I'm in sales training every week every month, whatever that case might be. It's reinforcing those skills. It's making sure that the things you should say and do or top of mind for when you go into the call with your team member, your prospect or your client. What is the training? What are the specific like? What are you teaching people? Well, it depends, I mean. If if from a sale standpoint, it could be how to make certain that you don't have a one size fits all style communication,...

...all about your features and benefits and not pausing enough to really truly care enough to dig into what's happening or not happening, why or why not in their world. You know, there are a lot of methodologies out there to talk about being consultative, and they are to an extent. I think there's only a handful that actually really dive, you know, deep down to get to the root of the cause of the problem, and so a lot of times you're selling a great solution but it's not ultimately the the best solution. And again can apply from an enterprise market, traditional be to be etc. I think there are a lot of ortizations that just go out there and commel social media, the phones, emails, networking events, and I call it pasta prospecting. You do enough throwing enough stuff out there, see what sticks. And there isn't necessarily a rhyme or reason, whether it's very clear on our ideal client profile or fixing the go to market strategy to set our teams up for success. So again, sometimes the consulting part that comes prior to the training is are we focusing more on process, more on people, combination thereof, and then making certain that the core methodology is applied applicably to how they're selling? They're selling environment makes a lot of sense. Keith, were almost at the end of our time together and one of the things we like to do at the end is sort of pay it forward and talk about people or books or ideas that have influenced you that you think we should know about. Who are some folks that have played a big role in your life or people that you think we should know about, or books or you know, however you want to frame it, where we can follow the bread crumb trail and figure out, you know, and get get more ideas and more insights. Okay, very good. So I would have to say from a from books, from a leadership standpoint, one book that I actually love is called extreme ownership. It's by Jocko will and he's a former navy seal and the way that he'll tell a story of what they faced, you know, when they were on a mission, and then it pauses and goes into some of the business applications and then it's giving you real tactical advice of what to say, what not to do. Maybe it's just my style, but it resonates well. I've got multiple clients who have utilized it as part of their communication. And not even just from a leadership standpoint, just personal responsibility of how to make certain that if I said it, I did it, I delegated it, it didn't work, I own it and it then kind of checked the ego through the process because sales or leadership, we all tend to have some egos that we carry around with us, from both the sales and a leadership standpoint. Scott least just put a brand new book out that's literally a playbook for anyone who is a VP of sales or who aspires to be, or even someone who's curious about it. You could be an SDR that someday. I want that and you could walk through it and you say I'm ready for my, you know, to my journey to get there, or it could be something that somebody goes no, I definitely don't want to do that. Those are two books I think where eye openers for me because again, over the last thirty years and sales, probably twenty in leadership roles, I could look back on both of those and get a little validation of what I did right and a lot of gut checks about things I did wrong, or tragically wrong, or could have done better had I only know better. Awesome. Yeah, Scott's great. So that's that's a great recommendation. And extreme ownership also great. He's also jockos. Also rate a twitter follow. Always enjoyable social media presence, Keith. If folks want to reach out to you, maybe they they want to talk more, learn more about about some training or understand more about what's possible. What's the best way to get in touch with you. The easiest way would just be to hit me up on Linkedin. You know, Keith Daw dw is way eight letters, so that's probably the fastest way to see if anything I said or done peaks their curiosity and certainly my contact information. They're leaked up. Linked in, of course, is pulled up, you know, all day every day, just for those kind of reasons. Sounds Great. So, Keith, thanks so much for being on the show today. We'll talk to you on Friday for Friday fundamentals,...

...but it's been great having you on the on the podcast. Thanks am I appreciate you having me. Hey, everybody, SAM's corner. Great Conversation with Keith Daw I think the key point that I took from it is before you sign your team up for quote unquote training, let's figure out why you're doing it. Let's figure out what your goals are. So much of bad corporate decisions are made because there's a foundation that that is lacking, that you don't know why you're doing something or even haven't explained the context, and as a consequence, all of these bad decisions flow from that. So Keith talked about strategy, structure, staff and skills are the four s's, and going in that order helps you understand where everybody needs to fit in, what their goals need to be, etc. So we really like the conversation with Keith and I think there's so many great concepts that can come from really understanding you know correctly what your strategy is, what you're trying to accomplish, understanding people's personal motivations before you put them into a training figure out how do you create a personal learning path that's that's customize and dedicated just for that. So really good conversation. Now, before we go, we want to thank our sponsors. The first is outreach. Ours is a longtime sponsor. Check out how they do it by going to outreach doto forwards on outreach. Also unlock your professional potential with a pavilion membership. Looters at every stage can get started today a joint PAVILIONCOM. And finally, Blue Board. Treat your reps like the Rock Stars they are. Blue Board is the world's leading experiential sales recognition platform that offers top reps their choice of hand curated experiences, really amazing stuff. If you go check them out, you'll see all these different experiences that you can get everything from whiskey tasting to yoga retreats to, you know, court side seats at your favorite basketball game. So it's really cool and better and more interesting than just cash rewards. A check them out at podcast dot blue boardcom and get your free demo podcast up blue boardcom. By the way, if you're not part of the salesccer community yet, give it a shot. Go to sales soacercom. Thank you for listening. Give us five stars if you want to. If you want to get in touch with me, you can email me Sam at joint Pavilioncom. I'll talk to you next time.

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