The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 months ago

173. Training Leaders Who Create Other Leaders w/ Keith Daw

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode of the Sales Hacker Podcast, we have Keith Daw, VP of GSD and Trainer at McDonell Consulting Group, where he ‘Gets Stuff Done’ and teaches the Sandler Training methodology. Join us for a great conversation about how training has changed in the current landscape, overlooked but essential qualities of leaders, and how to apply the four S’s in training.

What You’ll Learn

  1. Know why you’re training your team before you start
  2. Keep the four S’s in mind when setting goals
  3. Create a personal, customized learning path
  4. Look for leaders with vulnerability and professional humility

Show Agenda and Timestamps

  1. Keith Daw & McDonell Consulting [3:21]
  2. Training during the last 15+ months [10:43]
  3. Dos and don’ts on training the 4 S’s [14:04]
  4. Key ingredients for great leaders [20:17]
  5. Paying it forward: shout-outs [25:14]
  6. Sam’s Corner [28:12]
     

One two one: Three: Three: Everybody at Sam Jacobs, welcome to thesale hacker podcast today on the show we've got Keith do Keith is the vicepresident of getting shit done over at a McDonald, consultant group andSandler Training, and we talked all about the right approach to trainingyour team, why it needs to be a habit and whether needs to be repetition ouson a moment in time, is an ongoing process. So it's a great conversationand before we get there, of course we want to thank our sponsors. The firstsponsors out reach our rich has been a long time sponsor this podcast and theyjust launched a new way to learn out re turn out, reaches the place to learnhow that reached us out. Reach learn how the team follows up with every leadand record time after virtual events and turns them into revenue. You canalso see how outre uns a compass place, managers, reps and so much more, usingtheir own sales engagement platform had to average tatio Fort Sash on outrageto see what they've got going on. We're also sponsored by PavilionPasilinksminimams out of your career. A private membership connects you withthe network of thousands of like minded peers and resources where you canhappen to Leshi opportunities, training, mentorship and other services made forhigh growth leaders. Like you unlock your professional potential with apavilion membership leaders at every stage can get started to day a joinPavilion Com. Finally, Lubard cash rewards feel like a slap in the face.Do they that's why you've got to check out blue board experiential salesincentives and Presidents Club trips blue board is the world's leadingexperiential sales recognition platform that offers top raps their choice ofhand. Curative experiences from Sky, diving to court side, tickets, Micheland Starr dining to five start spot escapes. There's something for everyonefor president's Club. Blue Board offers individual buckerly trips and luxuryhome goods from Peleton bikes to swimming with whale sharks in Cabo,yogurts and Bali. The chasing the northern lights treat your reps likethe Rock Stars. They are, after they pick their favorite experience. Winningreps will partner with a dedicated blue board CONCIERGE, who will plan alltheir logistics and itinerary. So they don't have to lift a finger check themout at podcast, Dot Blue Board Com, podcast dot, Bobardol and get your freedemo without further. Do let's listen, my conversation with Keith Dot, everybody at Sam Jacob's, welcome tothe SALESA podcast today on the show we've got Keith. Daw Keith is the vicepresident and a trainer with MC Donald Consulting Group, an authorized licenseof sandlarks state of the art training center in Towson. I would assume towsonMaryland, but he will crrack me if not as well as full virtual trainingcapabilities, he places his focus and energy on amplifying professionals,teams and organizations in the areas of leadership, sales, strategic customercare, organizational excellence and especially that human communicationsthing where many sometimes struggle for nearly nine years. Dah has served aduel role of both producer as well as practitioner and intentionallyincorporates many of his own lessons learned into his talks and trainingsKeith. Welcome to the show, thanks for having me we're excited to have you, sois the training center in T towson Maryland? That's correct! That'scorrect! Just north of Baltimore Awesome! Where are you based by the wayin that area? Fantastic? Well, I'm from the DC area originally. So you know meby. I was there for opening Dave Camden yards many years ago, when I was aswell the monument day for sure, and it was supposed to be there last nightexcept a hurricane als. I decided it had some other plans and they canceledthe game. Yeah. I'm saying what I think might be hurricane something out herein New York, because the wind is scaring me so anyway Keith we like tostart with your baseball card, where we give you an opportunity. I read the Bio,I read the Intro, but your vice president of g SD. WHAT IS G ST standfor? Well, if I'm keeping a PG, I will say,get stuff done. I am a very actionable resort, oriented process, orientedperson, and so I think this one of the things that the clients and others thatappreciate is it's one thing to go to training or listen to somebody and hearsome stuff, it's different on. How do I actually apply this to my rural worldjobs and get results as a result got it?...

I understand now, and so McDonaldConsulting Group tells us a little bit about and as a license of Sandler tellus what you all do, give us a little bit of context and then obviously wouldlove to learn about. You know your background. Okay, so many people, noteverybody, but many people, know of Sandlin training with sales and salesleadership training. Some have seen other areas that that it works,training centers across the world and so the the model. You know thatauthorized license essentially a franchise in those broken mortartraining. Centers around the country around the world focus is going to be,as you mentioned, leadership at all levels right now, there's a lot ofcompanies that are in that start up the scale up mode and they're thinking.Okay, I'm proficient at this, but I don't know the first thing about that.My needs some assistance. Next Gen leaders, that's the biggest thing youknow got a lot of boomers and other season pros. They're, looking aroundtheir organization trying to figure out Okaya, which of any of theseknucklehead might be able to run my company and not tank it and proactively.What might I need to provide for them so that they're set for success? I'vewritten articles, a kind of equating it to help baseball teams, Major Leagueteams, they have their farm clubs and their systems to know if you're goingto go down from the first one when you're nineteen, when and if you'regoing to get to the major. So hopefully when we call upon you will be ready,building those kind of processes and in developing that training from aleadership standpoint, probably one of the things people don't know how muchwe do on that area. But if you go into the sales training and no matter howgreat and awesome it is, if the leadership is defunct or it's broken oranything, chances are the sales training that we wind up doing won'twork. That saled part certainly can go from any number of levels. What is thetraditional be to be whether it's channel partner enterprise sales? It'shelping companies understand. First of all, who is that ideal client thatyou're looking for what is that go to marketing marketing strategy and by theway, let's not put marketing out there on the side and let's work in tandemand find out what how that works best, but then shortening the sale cyclemaking certain you don't sound like that. Telemarketer who calls you rightbefore dinner and all those all those stereotypes and all those fears thatboth sellers, as well as prospects, have and ultimately focusing on. Do youwant groce revenue or do you want higher margins and so a lot of timesthere's a lot of discovery before we ever get there customer service? Ithink given, what's going on over the last couple years, in particular in thelast year, more and more people are recognizing it's a lot cheaper to keepclients than it is to go, get new ones. But when you look at the customerservice team, sometimes the people with the least amount of experience who getpaid the least amount of money and get the least Manieri or spending the mostamount of time with your value, customers or clients. So what couldpossibly go wrong there, and then I mentioned the communication. It's atthe Corp of everything David Sayler recognize people by for a reason,there's a psychology of why people buy or don't buy. How do you create aconversation and communicate on a level? That's relatable and personable toultimately build that trust and then stand a better chance as long as you'retechnically proficient, you said a better chance of closing that deal andbeing your competitors, ideally without having give up Marchin in the process.Well, that's comprehensive. I've said it once or twice before. What's your background, how did you howlong have you been doing this? What were you doing before? How did you getinto this? This crazy world of sales and leadership, training in the firstplace, where you grow up help us place you in history, okay, so to answer thefirst I'll give the answer the last I grew up in the Baltor metro area. DABis in the navy, but finally got out and settle up here. So, okay, throughtwelve in Baltimore, went to college in Pennsylvania, popped out, work for acouple. Large companies or well known companies both locally and nationallylearn the hard way in some cases. You know we think about leadership, theright ways to say it and do it. I had...

...some really tough leaders but prettycritical, pretty demanding and then did well and moved up pretty quickly inthose respective roles, but my own leadership style was mirroring. What Ihad been exposed to hindsight could have been, should have done itdifferently better than made a huge leap out in two thousand and ten, Imoved out to Kansas City. Missouri worked with a couple of couple ofinternational firms out there, one in creating creating and developing tradeshows corporate events. So all kinds of things we could tap into there if Iever get to the sales part, but then I also work for international populationsfor and that helped me cross and see where all of the the challenges wheremarketing blames customers are marketing, blame sale, sales blamesmarketing and the customer services getting the heat of it all, makingcertain that companies grow, build and scale appropriately, and how does thatcommunicate it mostly the strategists, mostly the the writer and the doer, butthere's always, of course, new business drives firm and started recognizingthat I wanted to take and parley all this experience and sales experienceI'd had in prior roles, and I wanted to get more new business and be up thereat the Monday morning meeting Oh look at what Keith just brought in. Instead,I was on the road twenty six weeks out of the year working and doing greatstuff for clients and was essentially a massive building apartment within. Itwas in the firm. So we agree to disagree and I did what most people did.I left in the start of my own business and it was a public relations for how Igot into here, partly because of that stock market thing that happened, Oeight, O, nine and beyond started, seeing some ripples sort of recognizingas smart and successful. As I thought I was, and despite the strength the teamand the BILLAB also started recognizing there were some blind spots, some gaps,don't know what you don't know, as the expression goes and a prospect, Inter,interestingly enough introduced me to the curt company I'm working with, andwe started figuring different ways to work together and after about a yearand a half of me being a client as the owner of a firm. I started recognizingthat I kind of like this better than what I'm doing now, and alsorecognizing leaders executives or those aspiring to be, as well as sales people.If I've had the success I've had and I'm in this spot- and I didn't knowthese a B and c how many other companies are out there that are goingto struggle or walk off that cliff and they have no idea it's coming. So maybe,if I can take my experience and my failures and put it into a provenformat and brand, how many companies could I make a positive impact and savethem from the huge financial as well as emotional loss? You mentioned in theBayo that there's a state of the art training facility in Towson. How didyou all respond to coved? What's been the experience for your business overthe past fifteen months? Obviously I'm assuming it's moved to all digital, butI would also imagine maybe that that cod was a potentially positive thingfor your training business, because so many people needed to invest intraining, given that they couldn't see where their employees were all day. Buthow did how did you respond over the last fifteen or some months so kind ofkind of all of the all of the above? So because of the nature of what we do, Imean we're doing sales or leadership training. Not Everybody might begeographically convenient to drive to the training center. So there are timeswhen we have leaders in sales, people that are different regions or adifferent areas around the region. Around the country, so we already hadvirtual capabilities cameras and monitors frouten back. We already hadthese things set up. However, we might have twenty five or thirty people inthe training center on a Tuesday morning for sales mastery and thenmaybe there's eight to ten that are joining us virtually then, of course,we needed to transition where, for a period of time, everything was onehundred percent virtual. So the technology was there the familiarity ofthe dealing with it was. However, there also needed to be a little bit of anadaption on our part from a delivery,...

...because two dimensional it can still beimpactful. You can still make an entertaining but you're missing acertain vibe you're missing those little that you might hear when you'rein the training center. With somebody struggling. You can't necessarily dothat over Zoom, particularly since some people aren't as comfortable being oncamera. So you can't see that facial expression that they're clearly hatingthat thing that you're mentioning or confused on how to implement it. Sowe're spending a lot of times behind the scenes afterward to make certainthat that flawless experience and many people, I think their perception ofvirtual training prior to all of this was all right. My person's going tosign up for a webinars have somebody talk to him. They're going to playsolitaire play on their phone, not have their camera on, not be engaged, butthey check the box and get their continued education credits. So I thinkthat was the perception. A lot of companies had a virtual training, andso I think our biggest thing to overcome and we put out a lot ofcomplementary informational workshops on how to manage and sell appropriately.Given the the considerations- and I think that generosity had peoplerealized WHOA. What you mean I could do a breakout session have workingsessions, meet o a peer right, and so it changed. I think some of ours wasthe educating people on what your thought for troll training was and whatwe're doing and how it should be to the second part you're correct. There are alot of companies that realized that either a they've been putting theinsert training type here on the back burner and now they need it more thanever, and I think the biggest hesitancy that some had were cash flow and I'mfurloughing some people. But let me get my house in order figure out what'sgoing on, take care of my clients, and so we did see a rise and interest a lotof questions. Clients coming on some of our largest clients. We've had overthirteen years came on during during Ovid, because now it was critical timeand I must have instead of a nice to have, as some people look at training,Yeah Yeah. Well, it makes a lot of sense. Let's dive into sort of theheart of the subject matter. You have a point of view on this thing, called thefour SS strategy structure, staff and skills, and how so many companies getit wrong and what the right companies do to focus on the right. Things walkus through that general framework and then specifically, you know to thepoint of the question: What do most companies get wrong? You know youmentioned that you deal with a lot of companies and kind of scale up modecompanies and especially given how much capital there is in the world right now.A lot of companies are flush with money, they got good balance sheets and theyneed to grow and they're trying to figure out how to do that in the rightway. So when you see companies doing the four s is right and the company'sdoing it wrong. What separates them so give us an over ve the framework andthen the best ones versus the the ones that need help very good, very good. So,as you mentioned before at the opening, it's McDonald Consulting Group, notMcDonald Training Group. However, because of the brand of filiation andthe contest we're putting out people, will tip all reach out hey. I needagainst leadership, training sales training cusper, whatever they want totrade it. So I could say we're associated with the you know theworld's largest best this that whatever send over proposal and they sign it.We're all from running training starts chances. Are that's going to be doomedto fail, because I don't really know enough about what prompted it, whatcould work, what couldn't work and what their end goal is. So, as I say,putting on my business doctor had and to say, Okay Su Sam, a lot of peoplewant that kind of training, but could be from completely different reasons.Let's talk about your strategy and just for the forsake of time here. If yourplan is to to get mean and green and grow and be efficient, because you wantto have some kind of liquidity event, you know you just want to sell thisthing to the first person, whoever in five years, the focus of how weimplement the training and what are in...

...goals along the lines and and theresupposed to be could become vastly different than somebody. That says, Ithink, I'm on to something amazing, and I want to build this over the nextfifteen twenty years and have some massive legs right. So the same coretraining will be involved in both scenarios, but how it's delivered andhow it's used and again what things were trying to accomplish. All the waycould be completely different, and I don't know about you. I don't like toassume, because I, when I do, I'm usually wrong and I don't like beingwrong. So the four SIS or my guideline to make sure I don't miss anythingimportant and then have an embarrassing moment that I should have seen comingsix nine twelve months down the road when a companies made a huge investmentof time, money, resources and then at the same time it might be the firsttime or recently were that executive because it could be, you know alllevels of sea sweet or within an organization. Sometimes they don't haveto take the time to have that introspective look into their businessor it's been a while since they've revisited so understanding thatstrategy helps them make sure they're aligned internally and that helps makesure that we're working with the right the right goal in mind, the structurecould be hierarchy could be how they go to market. Are you working throughchannel partners? Are you B to B or your director consumer? Are you a verya very flat organization? Are you geographically decentralized, likethere's a lot of these things, both from logistics as well as getting tothat and goal? I need to understand, as though I'm a dotted line on yourorchard and that go to otherwise again, I could make a mistake, or they don'tknow, to share something with me, which ultimately could impact the result ofthe training. Then the next thing is we'll move over to the staff, becauseif you want to do some training, I don't know anything about your people,I'm sure they're, brilliant, I'm sure they're, amazing human beings, but Idon't know who's trainable and WHO's. Not I don't know who's going toautomatically be the hostages in the room and who are the ones that can'tget enough. So, let's talk through and in some cases we might need to evaluateyou know their skill sets. Did you put them in the sales because well they'vebeen around long enough? They didn't run fast enough or do you put them inthe scale sales because they truly have some some talent, Jim Collins, mentionsin one of his books. You know make sure you have the right people on the rightseats of the bus, well, Keith Thaw says, make sure they're on the right bus.Sometimes people who got you to where you are may not necessarily be gettingyou to that next level at all, or even in the same role Sonat had you have toevaluate what they can do for your organization, and maybe you shift themone way or another or there's additional skills that they might needin order for them to go for that next phase of their journey in the company'sjourney, and then, when we get to the skills now its is pretty much all laidout. Okay, these people are going to be leaders. Here's the things that they'regoing to need to know. Let's put that into the training program, soeverybody's going to get some core things who you have that internalplaybook, but at the same time everybody has a learning path in ajourney through this training, so that way, it's as applicable as possible tothem they're most likely to pay attention, and they also know how toactually use it for the results. So when you come across all of thesecompanies and you've dealt with so many of them. You say so. Many organizationsfocus on the wrong things and Oh and not enough, focus on the right things.So what are the right things to focus on and what are the wrong things tofocus on? Well, I use the forest is as the guideline for that, because it'svery easy to say: Oh No, this is happening, go go, go, sell, Celso orit's the end of the quarter, but at the same time, are you selling a lot ofstuff or just pushing the numbers, because you want to be able to showwhatever stake holders? Here's what we did! Are you doing it because you'retrying to get a bonus or you know, or do you have an end goal in mind? We aretrying to. I grow twenty percent over...

...the next three to five years. So thatway we could be positioned for acquisition right so having thestrategy and building your game plan instead of just going out there intoyour car, putting the GPS on random and hoping to get there right. That makes alot of sense when you think about you know you mentioned figuring out who'sgoing to be a leader and WHO's. Not How do you make that determination and thenwhat are I'm sure the audience would love to understand when you think abouta framework for leadership? What are the key ingredients that make greatleaders in your opinion things and make great leaders, probably the things thatmost of us aren't taught until we learned it the hard way? I thinkvulnerability and professional humility are to that. Don't get spoken aboutenough. There could be pride issues or ego issues, or I don't want to say, ordo that and have someone think I'm weak. You know, like those kind of hand ofhead trash, oftentimes is in our head. However, those leaders that are mostapproachable they're genuinely curious. I do a lot of sessions with companieson identifying your teams, personal motivation, because once you understandthe personal motivation is a lot easier to build dual goals: get sales orleadership whatever those Kpis or metrics might be. Now the employee isnot just like. Oh, I got to go. Make four hundred co calls now they look atit as every cold call. I make gets me closer to achieving that goal and thatleader, who can create other leaders instead of looking to just have a bunchof followers and doers. They tend to be the most successful and I think thosewho are in their late s and early es with aspirations to be a leader. Thosehad to be the ones that are that embrace the training the most becausethey recognize the good ones that they've had in the past and theyrecognize the leaders they definitely do not want to be when they grow upmakes a lot of sense. Let me ask you, you know: We've got a few more minutesleft and I know that there's more to it. I know that there's a lot to it, but wedo hear folks here about Sandler all the time and I'm sure there's peoplethat you know they know it's a training framework, but they don't know muchmore than that. If you were to sort of articulate some high level conceptsthat are core to sandler training that might get people more intrigued orcurious, how would you summarize, or what are the key elements in youropinion, specifically around sales of that Sandler and bodies are represents.I think a lot of organizations or people tend to look at training of anytype as an event, as opposed to an ongoing process. So you could spend tenbrands, send a couple people to a thing for a day to a couple weeks or whatever,and you just think they're going to magically be healed. Sandler DavidSaler believed that the power of reenforcement to make certain just likea professional athlete they go to practice every week. They go into theweight room every week that way, they're ready. They studied theplaybooks film, as the case might be so they're ready to execute at the highestlevel and even the most seasoned people, with all the championships still gothrough those core things, so understanding the methodology and thathow do we get consistent results, measurable results, shortened, salecycles, shortened performance. If it's in a leadership standpoint, a client ofmine, said a couple years ago. I don't go to church every Sunday, because Iforget what I believe I go to church every Sunday because it keeps remindingme what I need to do and what I need to avoid, and so taking that same mindsetinto training, I'm in leadership training every week every month, I'm insales training every week every month, whatever that case might be, it'sreinforcing those skills. It's making sure that the things you should say anddo or top of mind for when you go into the call with your team member, yourprospect or your client. What is the training? What are the specific like?What are you teaching people? Well, it depends. I mean if, if I'm a salestandpoint, it could be how to make certain that you don't have a one sizefits all style communication, all about...

...your features and benefits and notpausing enough to really truly care enough to dig into what's happening ornot happening. Why or why not in their world? You know there are a lot ofmethodologies out there to talk about being consultate and they are to anextent, I think, there's only a handful that actually really dive. You knowdeep down to get to the root of the cause of the problem and so a lot oftimes, you're selling a great solution, but it's not ultimately the bestsolution and again that can apply from an enterprise market, traditional B, toB, etc. I think there are a lot of organizations that just go out thereand pummel social media. The phones, emails, networking events and I call itpasta prospecting you do enough, throw enough stuff out. There see what sticksand there isn't necessarily a rhyme or reason whether it's very clear on ourideal client profile or fixing the go to market strategy to set her teams upfor success. So again, sometimes t the consulting part that comes prior to thetraining is. Are we focusing more on process more in people combinationthereof and then making certain that the core methodology is applied?applicably to how they're sell like they're selling environment makes a lotof sense, keith we're almost at the end of our time together and one of thethings we like to do at the end is sort of pay it forward and talk about peopleor books or ideas that have influenced you that you think we should know aboutwho are some folks that have played a big role in your life or people thatyou think we should know about or books or you know how ever you want to frameit where we can follow the bread crumb trail and figure out. You know and getget more ideas and more insights. Okay, very good. So I would have to say frommy from books from a leadership standpoint, one book that I actual ofis called extreme ownership. It's by Jaco will an he's, a former navy sealand the way that he'll tell a story of what they faced. You know when theywere on a mission and then it pauses and goes into some of the businessapplications and then it's giving a real tactical advice of what to saywhat not to do. Maybe it's just my style, but it resonates well. I've gotmultiple clients who have utilized it as part of their communication and noteven just from a leadership standpoint, just personal responsibility of how tomake certain that if I said it, I did it I delegated it. It didn't work, Iown it and then kind of checked the ego through the process because sales orleadership we all tend to have some egos that we carry around with us fromboth the sales and a leadership. Standpoint Scot leas just put a BRA newbook out: That's literally a playbook for anyone who is a VPS sales or whoaspires to be, or even someone who's curious about it. You could be an SDRthat some day I want that and you could walk through it and you say I'm readyfor my. You know by journey to get there or it could be something thatsomebody goes no. I definitely don't want to do that. Those are two books Ithink were eye openers for me because again, over the last thirty years insales, probably twenty in leadership roles, I could look back on both ofthose and get a little validation of what I did right and a lot of gutchecks about things I did wrong or tragically wrong or could have donebetter. Had I gon know better awesome, Yeah Scott's great. So that's that's. Agreat recommendation and extreme ownership also great he's also Jack Os.Also great twitter follow always enjoyable. Social Media Presence Keithat folks want to reach out to you. Maybe they want to talk more learn moreabout about some training or understand more about what's possible. What's thebest way to get in touch with you, the easiest way would just be to hit me upon linked in you know: Keith Thaw Daw this y eight letters, so that'sprobably the fastest way to see, if anything, I said or done, peaks theircuriosity and certainly my contact information there. We don't make theend of course is pulled up. You know all day every day. Just for those kindof reasons sounds great, so key thanks. So much for being on the show todaywe'll talk to you on Friday for Friday...

...fundamentals, but it's been greathaving you on the on the podcast thanks Sam, I appreciate you having me everybody Sam's corner greatconversation with Keith Daw. I think the key point that I took from it isbefore you sign your team up for quote: Unquote: training, let's figure out whyyou're doing it, let's figure out what your goals are. So much of badcorporate decisions are made because there's a foundation that is lackingthat you don't know why. You're doing something- or you haven't explained thecontext and, as a consequence, all of these bad decisions flow from that. Sochief talked about strategy, structure, staff and skills are the four esses andgoing in that order, helps you understand where everybody needs to fitin what their goals need to be etc. So we really like the conversation withKeith and I think, there's so many great concepts that can come fromreally understanding. You know correctly what your strategy is, whatyou're trying to accomplish understanding people's personalmotivations before you put them into a training figure out? How do you createa personal learning path? That's that's customize and dedicated just for that.So really good conversation. Now before we go, we want to thank our sponsors.The first is out reach our SES longtime sponsor check out how they do it bygoing to outreach Odio Ford, slash on outreach, also unlock your professionalpotential with the pavilion membership loaders at every stage can get startedto day, join Pavilion Com and, finally, Blue Board treat your reps, like theRock Stars they are. Lubard is the world's leading experiential salesrecognition platform that offers top reps their choice of hand. curatedexperiences really amazing stuff. If you go check them out, you'll see allof these different experiences that you can get everything from whiskey tastingto yoga retreats to. You know: Court side seats at your favorite basketballgame, so it's really cool and better and more interesting than just cashear.I check them out at Podcast, Dot Blue Board Com and get your free demopodcast up Bubar by the way, if you're, not part, of the sale sacker community,yet give it a shot n go to sales akroma. Thank you for listening. Give us fivestars. If you want to, if you want to get in touch with me, you can email mesalmon, join pavilion, I'll talk to you next time, a.

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