The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 5 months ago

173. Training Leaders Who Create Other Leaders w/ Keith Daw

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode of the Sales Hacker Podcast, we have Keith Daw, VP of GSD and Trainer at McDonell Consulting Group, where he ‘Gets Stuff Done’ and teaches the Sandler Training methodology. Join us for a great conversation about how training has changed in the current landscape, overlooked but essential qualities of leaders, and how to apply the four S’s in training.

What You’ll Learn

  1. Know why you’re training your team before you start
  2. Keep the four S’s in mind when setting goals
  3. Create a personal, customized learning path
  4. Look for leaders with vulnerability and professional humility

Show Agenda and Timestamps

  1. Keith Daw & McDonell Consulting [3:21]
  2. Training during the last 15+ months [10:43]
  3. Dos and don’ts on training the 4 S’s [14:04]
  4. Key ingredients for great leaders [20:17]
  5. Paying it forward: shout-outs [25:14]
  6. Sam’s Corner [28:12]
     

One, two, one, three, three. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the SALESACER podcast. Today on the show we've got Keith Dalk. Keith is the vice presidentof getting shit done over at McDonald Consulting Group and Sandler Training, and wetalked all about the right approach to training your team, white needs to bea habit and why there needs to be repetition. It's not a moment intime, it's an ongoing process. So it's a great conversation. And beforewe get there, of course, we want to thank our sponsors. Thefirst sponsors outreach, our which has been a long time sponsor this podcast,and they just launched a new way to learn. Outreach. On outreaches theplace to learn how outreach does outreach. Learn how the team follows up withevery lead in record time after virtual events and turns them into revenue. Youcan also see how outreach ones outcomp splace manages reps and so much more usingtheir own sales engagement platform. Had to outreach oo Ford Slash on outreach tosee what they've got going on. We're also sponsored by pavilion. Pavilion isthe key to getting more out of your career. A private membership connects youwith the network of thousands of like minded peers and resources where you can happento leisure of opportunities, training, mentorship and other services made for high growthleaders like you. Unlock your professional potential with a pavilion membership. Leaders atevery stage can get started today at joining Pavilioncom. Finally, blue board cashfor rewards feel like a slap in the face, do they? That's whyyou've got to check out blue board experiential sales incentives and president's Club trips.Blueboard is the world's leading experiential sales recognition platform that offers top reps their choiceof hand curated experiences. From skydiving to courtside tickets, Michelin Star dining tofive start spot escapes, there's something for everyone. For President's Club, blueboard offers individual Bucketts, trips and luxury home goods, from pellaton bikes toswimming with whale sharks in Cobbo, Yoga cheets and Bali the chasing the northernlights. Treat your reps like the Rock Stars they are. After they picktheir favorite experience. Winning reps will partner with a dedicated blueboard concierge who willplan all their logistics and itinerary so they don't have to lift a finger.Check them out at PODCAST DOT blue boardcom. PODCAST DOT blue boardcom and get yourfree demo without further do let's listen my conversation with Keith Daw. Heyeverybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the SALESACER podcast. Today on theshow we've got Keith Daw Keith is the vice president and a trainer with McDonaldConsulting Group, an authorized licensee of Sandler training, with the State of theart training center in Tauson, I would assume, house in Maryland, buthe will correct me if not. As well as full virtual training capabilities,he places his focus and energy on amplifying professionals, teams and organizations in theareas of leadership, sales, strategic customer care, organizational excellence and especially thathuman communications thing where many sometimes struggle. For nearly nine years, Daw hasserved a dual role of both producer as well as practitioner and intentionally incorporates manyof his own lessons learned into his talks and trainings. Keith, welcome tothe show. Thanks for having me. We're excited to have you. Sois the training center in House in Maryland? That's correct. That's correct, justnorth of Boltimar. Awesome where you based, by the way, andthat area fantastic. Well, I'm from the the DC area originally, soyou know whereby. I was there for opening day of Camden yards many yearsago when I was as well. I mean to stay for sure, andit was supposed to be there last night, except Hurricane Elsa decided it had someother plans and they cancel the game. Yeah, that I'm saying what Ithink might be hurricane something out here in New York, because the windis scaring me. So anyway, Keith, we like to start with your baseballcard, where we give you an opportunity. I read the Bayou,I read the Intro, but your vice president of GSD. WHAT DOES GSDstand for? Well, if I'm keeping a PG, I will say getstuff done. I am a very actionable, resorts oriented, process oriented person,and so I think this one of the things that the clients and othersthat appreciate is it's one thing to go to training or listen to somebody andhere's some stuff. It's different on how do I actually apply this to myrural world jobs and get results as a...

...result. Got It, I understandnow. And so, McDonald Consulting Group, tell us a little bit about andas a licensee of Sandler, tell us what you all do. Giveus a little bit of context and then, obviously would love to learn about you. Know your background, okay, so many people, not buddy,but many people know of Sandli training with sales and sales leadership training. Somehave seen other areas that that it works, training centers across the world, andso the the model, you know, that authorized licensing, essentially a franchisein those brick and mortar training centers around the country, around the world. Focus is going to be, as you mentioned, leadership at all levels. Right now there's a lot of companies that are in that start up,the scale up mode and they're thinking, okay, I'm proficient at this,but I don't know the first thing about that. My need some assistants,next Gen leaders. That's the biggest thing. You know, got a lot ofboomers and other season pros. They're looking around their organization trying to figureout, okay, which, if any, of these knuckleheads might be able torun my company and not take it and proactively what might I need toprovide for them so that they're set for success. I've written articles kind ofequating it to how baseball teams, Major League teams, they have their farmclubs and their systems to know if you're going to go down from the firstone when you're nineteen, when and if you're going to get to the majorso hopefully, when we call upon you'll be ready. Building those kind ofprocesses and developing that training from a leadership standpoint, probably one of the thingspeople don't know how much we do on that area. But if you gointo the sales training and no matter how great and awesome it is, ifthe leadership is defunct or it's broken or anything, chances are the sales trainingthat we wi end up doing won't work. That sale part certainly can go fromany number of levels. What ares the traditional be to be? Whetherit's channel partner, enterprise sales, it's helping companies understand, first of all, who is that ideal client that you're looking for? What is that goto marketing marketing strategy, and, by the way, let's not put marketingout there on the side and let's work in tandem and find out what howthat works best, but then shortening the sales cycle, making certain you don'tsound like that telemarketer who calls you right before dinner and all those all thosestereotypes and all those fears that both sellers as well as prospects have, andultimately focusing on do you want grocer revenue or do you want higher margins?And so a lot of times there's a lot of discovery before we ever getthere. Customer Service. I think given what's going on over the last coupleyears in particular and the last year, more and more people are recognizing it'sa lot cheaper to keep clients than it is to go get new ones.But when you look at the customer service team, sometimes the people with theleast amount of experience who get paid the least amount of money and get theleast amount of training or spending the most amount of time with your value customersand clients. So what could possibly go wrong there? And then I mentionedthe communication. It's at the core of everything. David Sandler recognize people buyfor a reason. There's a psychology on why people buy or don't buy.How do you create a conversation and communicate on a level that's relatable and personableto ultimately build that trust and then stay in a better chance, as longas you're technical, we proficient, you said, a better chance of closingthat deal and beating your competitors, ideally without having give up marching in theprocess. Well, that's comprehensive. I've said it once through twice before.What's your background? How did you how long have you been doing this?What were you doing before? How did you get into this, this crazyworld of sales and leadership training in the first place? Where to grow up? Help US place you in history. Okay, so to answer the first, I'll give the answer the last. I grew up in the Baltimore Metroarea. That was in the Navy but finally got out and settle up here. So Kay through twelve in Baltimore, when to college in Pennsylvania, poppedout. Work for a couple large companies or wellknown companies, both locally andnationally. Learned the hard way in some cases. You know, we thinkabout leadership, the right ways to say...

...it and do it. I hadsome really tough leaders, the pretty critical, pretty demanding, and then did welland moved up pretty quickly in those respective roles, but my own leadershipstyle was mirroring what I'd been exposed to. Hindsight could have been. Should havedone it differently and better. Then made a huge leap out in twothousand and ten. I moved out to Kansas City, Missouri. Work witha couple couple international firms out there, one in creating, creating and developingtrade shows, corporate events, so all kinds of things we could tap intotheir if you forget to the sales part. But then I also work for internationalpopulations firm and that helped me cross and see where all of the challenges, where marketing blames customers are, marketing blames sales, sales blames marketing andthe customer service is getting the heat of it all. Making certain that companiesgrow, building scale appropriately. And how does that's communicated mostly the strategists,mostly the the writer and the doer. But there's always, of course,new business drives the firm and started recognizing that. I wanted to take andparlay all this experience and sales experience I'd had in prior roles and I wantedto get more new business and be up there at the Monday morning meeting.Oh look what keiths just brought in. Instead, I was on the roadtwenty six weeks out of the year, working and doing great stuff for clients, and was essentially a massive billing apartment within it, within the firm.So we agree to disagree, and I did what most people did. Ileft and start on my own business, and it was a public relations firm. How I got into here, partly because of that stock market thing thathappened O hundred and nine and beyond. started seeing some ripples, sort ofrecognizing as smart and successful as I thought I was and despite the strength theteam in the BILLABOWLS, also started recognizing there were some blind spots, somegaps. Don't know what you don't know, as the expression goes, and aprospect and interestingly enough, introduced me to the current company I'm working withand we started figuring out different ways to work together and after about a yearand a half of me being as a client, as the owner of afirm, I started recognizing that I kind of like this better than what I'mdoing now, and also recognizing leaders, executives or those aspiring to be,as well as salespeople. If I've had the success I've had and I'm inthis spot and I didn't know these A, B and c. How many othercompanies are out there that are going to struggle or walk off that cliffand they have no idea it's coming? So maybe if I can take myexperience and my failures and put it into a proven format and brand, howmany companies could I make a positive impact and save them from the huge financialas well as emotional loss? You mentioned in the bay a that there's astate of the art training facility in Towson. How did you all respond to Covid? What's been the experience for your business over the past fifteen months?Obviously I'm assuming it's moved to all digital, but I would also imagine maybe thatthat code was a potentially positive thing for your training business, because somany people needed to invest in training given that they couldn't see where their employeeswere all day. But how did how did you respond over the last fifteenor some months? So kind of kind of all of the all of theabove. So because of the nature of what we do, I mean we'redoing sales or leadership training. Not Everybody might be geographically convenient to drive tothe training center. So there are times when we have leaders and sales peoplethat are different regions or are different areas around the region, around the country. So we already had of virtual capabilities, cameras and monitors front and back.We already had these things set up. However, we might have twenty,five or thirty people in the training center on a Tuesday morning for asales mastery and then maybe there's eight to ten that are joining us virtually.Then, of course, we needed to transition where for a period of timeeverything was one hundred percent virtual. So the technology was there, the familiarityof dealing with it was however, they're also needed to be a little bitof an adaptation on our part from a...

...delivery because two dimensional. It canstill be impactful, you can still make it entertaining, but you're missing acertain vibe. You're missing those little that you might hear when you're in thetraining center when somebody struggling. You can't necessarily do that over Zoom, particularlysince some people are aren't as comfortable being on camera, so you can't seethat fatal expression that they're clearly hating that thing that you're mentioning or confused onhow to implement it. So we're spending a lot of times behind the scenesafterward to make certain that that flawless experience. And many people, I think theirperception of virtual training prior to all of this was all right, myperson is going to sign up for a Webinar, have somebody talked to them, they're going to play solitaire, play on the phone, not have theircamera on, not be engaged, but they check the box and get theircontinuing education credits. So I think that was the perception. A lot ofcompanies had a virtual training and so I think our biggest thing to overcome andwe we put out a lot of complementary informational workshops on how to manage andsell appropriately given the considerations, and I think that generosity had people realize whoawhen I mean I could do a breakout session, have working sessions, meetother peer right, and so it changed, I think some of ours with theeducating people on what you thought virtual training was and what we're doing andhow it should be. To the second part, you're correct. There area lot of companies that realized that either A, they've been putting the inserttraining type here on the back burner and now they need it more than everand I think the biggest hesitancy that some had were cash flow and I'm furlowingsome people, but let me get my house in order, figure out what'sgoing on, take care of my clients, and so we did see a risein interest, a lot of questions, clients coming on. Some of ourlargest clients we've had over thirteen years came on during during covid because nowit was critical time and I must have instead of a nice to have assome people look at training. Yeah, well, that makes a lot ofsense. Let's dive into sort of the heart of the subject matter. Youhave a point of view on this thing called the for SS strategy, structure, staff and skills and how so many companies get it wrong and what theright companies do to focus on the right things. Walk US through that generalframework and then specific the you know, to the point of the question.What do most companies get wrong? You know, you mentioned that you dealwith a lot of companies and kind of scale up mode companies and especially givenhow much capital there is in the world right now, a lot of companiesare flush with money, they got good balance sheets and they need to growand they're trying to figure out how to do that in the right way.So when you see companies doing the forests right and the companies doing it wrong, what separates them? So give us an overread the framework and then thebest ones versus the the ones that need help. Very good, very good. So, as you mentioned before at the opening, it's McDonald Consulting Group, not McDonald Training Group. However, because of the brand affiliation and thecontent were putting out, people will tipped. We reach out, Hey, Ineed and leadership training, sales training, custpers whatever they want the training.So I could say we're associated with the you know, the world's largest, best, this, that, whatever. Send over proposal and they sign it. We're often running training starts. Chances are that's going to be doomedto fail because I don't really know enough about what prompted it, what couldwork, what couldn't work and what their end goal is. So, asI say, putting on my business doctor hat and to say, okay,Sue Sam, a lot of people want that kind of training, but couldbe from completely different reasons. Let's talk about your strategy and just for theforsake of time here, if your plan is to to get mean and greenand grow and be efficient because you want to have some kind of liquidity event. You know, you're just want to sell this thing to the first personwhoever, in five years, the focus of how we implement the training andwhat are end goals along the lines and...

...in air swissed to be, couldbecome vastly different than somebody that says I think I'm onto something amazing and Iwant to build this over the next fifteen, twenty years and have some massive legsright. So the same core training will be involved in both scenarios,but how it's delivered and how it's used and again, what things were tryingto accomplish along the way, could be completely different. And I don't knowabout you, I don't like to assume because I when I do I'm usuallywrong and I don't like being wrong. So the four s's or my guidelineto make sure I don't miss anything important and then have an embarrassing moment thatI should have seen coming six, nine, twelve months down the road, whena company's made a huge investment in time, money resources and then atthe same time, it might be the first time or recently where that executivebecause it could be a you know, all levels of sea suite or withinan organization. Sometimes they don't have to take the time to have that introspectivelook into their business or it's been a while since they've revisited. So understandingthat strategy helps them make sure they're aligned internally and then helps make sure thatwe're working with the right the right goal in mind. The structure could behierarchy, could be how they go to market. Are you working through channelpartners? Are you be to be or you direct a consumer? Are youa very a very flat organization? Are you geographically decentralized? Like there's alot of these things, both from logistics as well as getting to that endgoal. I need to understand as though I'm a dotted line on your orchart and that go to otherwise again, I could make a mistake or theydon't know to share something with me which ultimately could impact the results of thetraining. Then the next thing is we'll move over to the staff, becauseif you want to do some training, I don't know anything about your people. I'm sure they're brilliant, I'm sure they're amazing human beings, but Idon't know who's trainable and WHO's not. I don't know who's going to automaticallybe the hostages in the room and who are the ones that can't get enough. So let's talk through and in some cases we might need to evaluate,you know, their skill sets. Did you put them in the sales because, well, they've been around long enough and they didn't run fast enough,or to put them into scale sales because they truly have some some talent?Jim Collins Mentions in one of his books. You know, make sure you havethe right people on the right seats of the bus. Key thought says, make sure they're on the right bus. Sometimes people who got you to whereyou are may not necessarily be getting you to that next level at all, or even in the same role. So now how do you have tovalue? We what they can do for your organization and maybe you shift themone way or another, or there's additional skills that they might need, needin order for them to go for that next phase of their journey and thecompany's journey. And then when we get to the skills, now it's thispretty much all lay it out. Okay, these people are going to be leaders. Here's the things that they're going to need to know. Let's putthat into the training program so everybody's going to get some core things. Soyou have that internal playbook, but at the same time everybody has a learningpath and a journey through this training, so that way it's as applicable aspossible to them, they're most likely to pay attention and they also know howto actually use it for the results. So when you come across all ofthese companies and you've dealt with so many of them, you say so manyorganizations focus on the wrong things, enough and not enough focus on the rightthings. So what are the right things to focus on? On what arethe wrong things to focus on? Well, I use the forest is as theguideline for that, because it's very easy to say, oh no,this is happening, go, go, go, cell, cell, cell, or it's the end of the quarter. But at the same time, areyou selling a lot of stuff or just pushing the numbers because you wantto be able to show whatever stakeholders, here's what we did. Are youdoing it because you're trying to get a bonus, you know, or doyou have an end goal in mind? We are trying to grow twenty percentover the next three to five years,...

...so that way we could be positionfor acquisition right. So having the strategy and building your game plan instead ofjust go out there into your car, putting the GPS on random and hopingyou get there right. That makes a lot of sense. When you thinkabout, you know, you mentioned figuring out who's going to be a leaderand WHO's not. How do you make that determination? And then what areI'm sure the audience would love to understand, when you think about a framework forleadership, port of the key ingredients that make great leaders? In youropinion, things and make great leaders probably the things that most of us aren'ttaught until we learned it the hard way. I think vulnerability and professional humility aretoo. That don't get spoken about enough. There could be pride issuesor ego issues or I don't want to say or do that and have someonethink I'm weak, you know, like those kind of a kind of headtrash. Often Times, as in our head. However, those leaders thatare most approachable, they're genuinely curious. I do a lot of sessions withcompanies on identifying your team's personal motivation, because once you understand the personal motivation, is a lot easier to build dual goals, get sales or leadership,whatever those Kpis or metrics might be. Now that employee is not just like, Oh, I got to go make four hundred cold calls. Now theylook at it as every cold call I make gets me closer to achieving thatgoal and that leader who can create other leaders instead of looking to just havea bunch of followers and doers. They tend to be the most successful andI think those who are in their late s and early s with ASP rationsto be a leader, those tend to be the ones that are that embracethe training the most because they recognize the good ones that they've had in thepast and they recognize the leaders they definitely do not want to be when theygrew up. Makes a lot of sense. Let me ask you. You know, we've got a few more minutes left and I know that there's moreto it. I know that there's a lot to it, but we dohear folks here about Sandler all the time and I'm sure there's people that youknow, they know it's a training framework but they don't know much more thanthat. If you were to sort of articulate some high level concepts that arecore to sandler training. That might get people more intrigued or curious. Howwould you summarize or what are the key elements in your opinion, specifically aroundsales, of that Sandler and bodies are represents. I think a lot oforganizations or people tend to look at training of any type as an event asopposed to an ongoing process. So you can spend ten grand send a couplepeople to a thing for a day to couple weeks or whatever, and youjust think they're going to magically be healed. Sandler, David Sailor believe that thepower of reinforcement to make certain. Just like a professional athlete, theygo to practice every week, they go into the weight room every week.That way they're ready. They studied the playbooks, film, as the casemight be, so they're ready to execute at the highest level. And eventhe most season people with all the championships still go through those core things.So understanding the the methodology and and that, how do we get consistent results,measurable results, shortened sales cycles, shortened performance, if it's in aleadership standpoint, a client of mind set. A couple of years ago, Idon't go to church every Sunday because I forget what I believe. Igo to church every Sunday because it keeps reminding me what I need to doand what I need to avoid, and so taking that same mindset into training. I'm in leadership training every week every month. I'm in sales training everyweek every month, whatever that case might be. It's reinforcing those skills.It's making sure that the things you should say and do or top of mindfor when you go into the call with your team member, your prospect oryour client. What is the training? What are the specific like? Whatare you teaching people? Well, it depends, I mean. If iffrom a sale standpoint, it could be how to make certain that you don'thave a one size fits all style communication,...

...all about your features and benefits andnot pausing enough to really truly care enough to dig into what's happening ornot happening, why or why not in their world. You know, thereare a lot of methodologies out there to talk about being consultative, and theyare to an extent. I think there's only a handful that actually really dive, you know, deep down to get to the root of the cause ofthe problem, and so a lot of times you're selling a great solution butit's not ultimately the the best solution. And again can apply from an enterprisemarket, traditional be to be etc. I think there are a lot ofortizations that just go out there and commel social media, the phones, emails, networking events, and I call it pasta prospecting. You do enough throwingenough stuff out there, see what sticks. And there isn't necessarily a rhyme orreason, whether it's very clear on our ideal client profile or fixing thego to market strategy to set our teams up for success. So again,sometimes the consulting part that comes prior to the training is are we focusing moreon process, more on people, combination thereof, and then making certain thatthe core methodology is applied applicably to how they're selling? They're selling environment makesa lot of sense. Keith, were almost at the end of our timetogether and one of the things we like to do at the end is sortof pay it forward and talk about people or books or ideas that have influencedyou that you think we should know about. Who are some folks that have playeda big role in your life or people that you think we should knowabout, or books or you know, however you want to frame it,where we can follow the bread crumb trail and figure out, you know,and get get more ideas and more insights. Okay, very good. So Iwould have to say from a from books, from a leadership standpoint,one book that I actually love is called extreme ownership. It's by Jocko willand he's a former navy seal and the way that he'll tell a story ofwhat they faced, you know, when they were on a mission, andthen it pauses and goes into some of the business applications and then it's givingyou real tactical advice of what to say, what not to do. Maybe it'sjust my style, but it resonates well. I've got multiple clients whohave utilized it as part of their communication. And not even just from a leadershipstandpoint, just personal responsibility of how to make certain that if I saidit, I did it, I delegated it, it didn't work, Iown it and it then kind of checked the ego through the process because salesor leadership, we all tend to have some egos that we carry around withus, from both the sales and a leadership standpoint. Scott least just puta brand new book out that's literally a playbook for anyone who is a VPof sales or who aspires to be, or even someone who's curious about it. You could be an SDR that someday. I want that and you could walkthrough it and you say I'm ready for my, you know, tomy journey to get there, or it could be something that somebody goes no, I definitely don't want to do that. Those are two books I think whereeye openers for me because again, over the last thirty years and sales, probably twenty in leadership roles, I could look back on both of thoseand get a little validation of what I did right and a lot of gutchecks about things I did wrong, or tragically wrong, or could have donebetter had I only know better. Awesome. Yeah, Scott's great. So that'sthat's a great recommendation. And extreme ownership also great. He's also jockos. Also rate a twitter follow. Always enjoyable social media presence, Keith.If folks want to reach out to you, maybe they they want to talk more, learn more about about some training or understand more about what's possible.What's the best way to get in touch with you. The easiest way wouldjust be to hit me up on Linkedin. You know, Keith Daw dw isway eight letters, so that's probably the fastest way to see if anythingI said or done peaks their curiosity and certainly my contact information. They're leakedup. Linked in, of course, is pulled up, you know,all day every day, just for those kind of reasons. Sounds Great.So, Keith, thanks so much for being on the show today. We'lltalk to you on Friday for Friday fundamentals,...

...but it's been great having you onthe on the podcast. Thanks am I appreciate you having me. Hey, everybody, SAM's corner. Great Conversation with Keith Daw I think the keypoint that I took from it is before you sign your team up for quoteunquote training, let's figure out why you're doing it. Let's figure out whatyour goals are. So much of bad corporate decisions are made because there's afoundation that that is lacking, that you don't know why you're doing something oreven haven't explained the context, and as a consequence, all of these baddecisions flow from that. So Keith talked about strategy, structure, staff andskills are the four s's, and going in that order helps you understand whereeverybody needs to fit in, what their goals need to be, etc.So we really like the conversation with Keith and I think there's so many greatconcepts that can come from really understanding you know correctly what your strategy is,what you're trying to accomplish, understanding people's personal motivations before you put them intoa training figure out how do you create a personal learning path that's that's customizeand dedicated just for that. So really good conversation. Now, before wego, we want to thank our sponsors. The first is outreach. Ours isa longtime sponsor. Check out how they do it by going to outreachdoto forwards on outreach. Also unlock your professional potential with a pavilion membership.Looters at every stage can get started today a joint PAVILIONCOM. And finally,Blue Board. Treat your reps like the Rock Stars they are. Blue Boardis the world's leading experiential sales recognition platform that offers top reps their choice ofhand curated experiences, really amazing stuff. If you go check them out,you'll see all these different experiences that you can get everything from whiskey tasting toyoga retreats to, you know, court side seats at your favorite basketball game. So it's really cool and better and more interesting than just cash rewards.A check them out at podcast dot blue boardcom and get your free demo podcastup blue boardcom. By the way, if you're not part of the salesccercommunity yet, give it a shot. Go to sales soacercom. Thank youfor listening. Give us five stars if you want to. If you wantto get in touch with me, you can email me Sam at joint Pavilioncom. I'll talk to you next time.

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